Christopher Hitchens Dies

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
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[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

No, I wouldn’t say that based on my earlier logic from above. Reason? Because they are 2 different activities. One is drinking alcohol. The other is eating food. What you want to do here is make them just like each other, but THEY ARE NOT.

[/quote]

I agree they are two separate activities but I stand by my premise.

Drinking alcohol to excess = not a good idea, foolish.

Eating food to excess = not a good idea, foolish.

Scuba diving to excess = not a good idea, foolish.

Running with the bulls in Pamplona, Spain = not a good idea, foolish.

Smoking pot (where legal) to excess = not a good idea, foolish.

Deadlifting with bad form to excess = not a good idea, foolish.
[/quote]
There is no point in listing these. I would answer the same as above, the truth of which you have just acknowledged.

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[quote]pushharder wrote:
Not to mention Paul’s Law of Liberty…a rather convenient thing for many legalistic folks to forget - folks that have a preconceived agenda that includes putting the shackles of the Law (in a sense) back on believers and non-believers alike.[/quote]
I’m not forgetting this at all. I have no interest in putting shackles on anyone.

My admonition is:

1-Find out what the bible says.
2-Do it.
3-Pray for guidance in your individual life based on 1, then submit.

I do like the way Solomon puts it in the end:

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

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I’m jist watchin fer now.

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I’ve got to quit for the day, but I will answer this:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

Laziness brings shame. Victorious living comes as a result of diligent study. Your statement above is a cop out.

[/quote]

You either misunderstood me or you took a cheap shot.

My statement, [quote]pushharder wrote: And yes, it’s true that someone does not have to go running around looking for passages to make something acceptable. The Bible is 100% crystal clear when it comes to condemning sin. It does not equivocate. It does not make sins “secret” things that have to be pored over in order to discover. [/quote]

is a far, far cry from a copout. Carefully read what I said again.

The Pharisees of Jesus’ day were perfect examples of zealotry to a fault. And Jesus reserved his harshest words in all the gospel just for them. They made Judaism so incredibly complicated and tedious and they reinforced it with guilt trips that were overwhelmingly crushing. They were ostentatious and hypocritical. It was their way or the highway right down to the last minute detail, details that could not be found in the Scripture. They were downright proud of all their humility…reminds me of someone I know…[/quote]

It’s certainly not intended as a cheap shot, and I’m sorry you read it that way. You’re statement suggests to me that what is sin can be easily understood. I’m afraid that’s certianly not always the case. I gave you examples based on your list- pro football, mountain climbing etc. If you want to say you can get by on just what is crystal clear, than I would have to say you are violating 2Tim2:15

It’s been a worthwhile discussion as far as I’m concerned.

Sleep on it man, I gotta go.

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[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
As to the Cana wedding question, I’ll address all your comments in this one post. I’m working with half my brain tied behind my back, so it’ll be easier for me.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
In a way this discussion reminds me of the teetotalers who INSIST that Jesus would NEVER had made actual alcoholic wine at the wedding in Cana. “No way!!!”

However, the “systematic” approach taken by the teetotaling crowd will simply not allow this, the proper, interpretation. [/quote]

I’m not interested in upholding anyone’s specific understanding. Before I was a Christian, I liked wine a lot. If the Saviour approved, I’d be glad to have a glass.

You are criticizing the systematic approach because you think it disagrees with your understanding of their culture.

First, I’ll say that Jesus is not obligated to do things according to the prevailing habits of the people as far as what was drunk at the average wedding. His motivation is righteousness first, not what will make everyone happy. So, he would be keeping in mind:

Pro 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

Hab 2:15 Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Unfermented wine? That’s just grape juice, why wouldn’t the Bible just say that instead of wine? If he’s creating this stuff out of water, I’m pretty sure they would make the effort to be somewhat accurate.[/quote]
In the bible, “wine” is a general term. There is “new” and “old.” Please note:

Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

Obviously, as the wine gets old it ferments, which would cause and old bottle to explode.

Yes, new wine is grapejuice, as this passages makes clear:

Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.

One must also keep in mind that “wine” making was very primitive back then. Not the scientifically controlled process they use to day. Uncontrolled fermentation would not yield something that’s 7-10% alcohol, AND still taste good. NOBODY was drinking Christian Brothers back then. Sorry young Orion, it’s just more shenanigans by the monks.

And the systematic approach is required if you’re going to get it right, and to be one of the big boys:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

[/quote]
Just as someone who routinely produces wine(& Beer) in a “very primitive” manner it is indeed very possible that “uncontrolled” or wild fermentation will produce a beverage of 7+% abv that tastes REALLY good.

I also think “new wine” refers to exactly that new but definitely fermented wine, that may still have a bit of yeast activity left (perhaps stirred up by bottling?). Every winemaker has had exploding bottles, & peoples of Biblical times likely didn’t even have hydrometers to use, so just guessed at bottling times.

That’s all I got, very interesting thread, thank you gentlemen.

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[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
I’ve got to quit for the day, but I will answer this:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

Laziness brings shame. Victorious living comes as a result of diligent study. Your statement above is a cop out.

[/quote]

You either misunderstood me or you took a cheap shot.

My statement, [quote]pushharder wrote: And yes, it’s true that someone does not have to go running around looking for passages to make something acceptable. The Bible is 100% crystal clear when it comes to condemning sin. It does not equivocate. It does not make sins “secret” things that have to be pored over in order to discover. [/quote]

is a far, far cry from a copout. Carefully read what I said again.

The Pharisees of Jesus’ day were perfect examples of zealotry to a fault. And Jesus reserved his harshest words in all the gospel just for them. They made Judaism so incredibly complicated and tedious and they reinforced it with guilt trips that were overwhelmingly crushing. They were ostentatious and hypocritical. It was their way or the highway right down to the last minute detail, details that could not be found in the Scripture. They were downright proud of all their humility…reminds me of someone I know…[/quote]

It’s certainly not intended as a cheap shot, and I’m sorry you read it that way. You’re statement suggests to me that what is sin can be easily understood. I’m afraid that’s certianly not always the case. I gave you examples based on your list- pro football, mountain climbing etc. If you want to say you can get by on just what is crystal clear, than I would have to say you are violating 2Tim2:15

It’s been a worthwhile discussion as far as I’m concerned.

Sleep on it man, I gotta go.
[/quote]

I said “or.” I take you at your word. That means you must’ve misunderstood me.

You implied I had not partaken in diligent study because I had a different perspective than you in respect to how the Bible addresses sin. My 80 gazillion posts regarding the Bible should’ve indicated that I have indeed not been lazy in the study of the Scripture. Controversial in some areas, yes, but not lazy.

I stand by my statement that God doesn’t fool around when it comes to identifying sin. There aren’t “hidden little caves” to be explored where new and exciting discoveries about what sin really is are secretly stored.

God doesn’t play a Hansel and Gretel bread crumbs game with identifying sin
[/quote]
I’m fairly sure I have understand your meaning, and I see you have reiterated here again. I do think you have misunderstood me. I did not intend to imply you personally have not diligently studied. My meaning was to say if you take the position that sin for an individual is always and only crystal clear, and one needs no diligent study of the scripture to discover it, you have recommended a lazy Christianity.

Without a doubt, God does not fool around when it comes to disobeying Him. Do you remember this incident:

In Leviticus Ch 10:1-2, Aaron’s young sons got a little anxious to try out their new censers. They didn’t do it the right way, and God killed them on the spot. They had disobeyed God in a matter they as yet had no specific prohibition about. Instructions for the censer don’t come until Ch 16. No crystal clear instructions for those boys. Even their intent was good.

I will expand on an example from above to make my point from a modern life hypothetical problem: A college big 10 football star, recently married and the new father of twins, comes to you and says “the offers are in, my agent says 3 million for 3 years is the best one. However, I was at the specialist the other day, and he said the concussion I had last year makes him really worried. He says if I ever got hit like that again, I might not get up. What do you think I should do man, we would be set for life after 3 years? My kids would have there college fund filled.” You would have to answer him- “I’ll pray you can get a clear leading from God on it, but it’s not for me to say.” He comes back to you a week later, and says- “I believe God wants me to give up the big time.” I would answer- “Well, if you’re sure, than have faith that God will give you another way to take care of your family.” Two weeks later you hear he signed after they offered some vanity type incentives. Six games into his first season, he took a hit that made him a quadriplegic.

Did the young man sin? Yes, if he disobeyed the clear leading of God in his heart, and here are 2 verses:

Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

1Ti 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

In order for this young man to be in a position to overcome his sin of vanity, he would’ve had to have spent some time in his bible, that there might be a “renewing” of his mind (Rom12:2). Do I think God expects this of a Christian that he might sin less? Definitely.

[quote]pushharder wrote:Now it WAS somewhat obscure before the Flood and hence “how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time” (Gen 6: 5 - 6). So immediately after God purged the world with the greatest catastrophe in human history he started laying down some do’s and don’ts (Gen. 9). He expanded on that at Sinai.

Then he clarified the Law in the gospels and fulfilled it. He expanded on THAT in Paul’s epistles AND He created the Perfect Law of Liberty.
[/quote]
I am a baptist, and am certainly acquainted with the “liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free”(Gal 5:1 KJV) "Only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. (Gal 5:13)

I have done the best I can on this subject so far as you’ve framed it, and will not add anything from here, unless I am asked a direct question.

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[quote]thick88 wrote:
Just as someone who routinely produces wine(& Beer) in a “very primitive” manner it is indeed very possible that “uncontrolled” or wild fermentation will produce a beverage of 7+% abv that tastes REALLY good.[/quote]
I was waiting for someone that makes their own to comment;-]

Establishing typical alcohol contents for back then I think is really difficult. For an idea of how primitive primitive was, search the word “wine” in this Pdf:

http://www.bib-arch.org/e-books/pdf/israel.pdf

[quote]I also think “new wine” refers to exactly that new but definitely fermented wine, that may still have a bit of yeast activity left (perhaps stirred up by bottling?). Every winemaker has had exploding bottles, & peoples of Biblical times likely didn’t even have hydrometers to use, so just guessed at bottling times.

That’s all I got, very interesting thread, thank you gentlemen. [/quote]

Here is a well written, and I think evenhanded article on the topic of drink in the bible. The bibliography lists 9 books on the specific subject of wine and drinking:

Notice the erroneous information he got from a few standard encyclopedias.

473

[quote]therajraj wrote:
Btw Mr. Chen, I tried to ask my Pentecostal friend your question. Unfortunately he’s visiting his family in Ghana for the next 2 months. I can’t get a hold of him.[/quote]
I was wondering about that. Hit me up about it if you talk to him when he gets back.

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And yet as usual, I didn’t start this dialog. YOU brought ME up. Ya need some new material. I’m beginning to wonder if all this accusation of obsession from you is a cover for your own? From the Hitchens thread where I also didn’t bring you up: The thirty minute sentence applies to today again too BTW. You’re scheduled for twice a week, but sometimes you get a bit more. http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/world_news_war/christopher_hitchens_dies?id=4971674&pageNo=18

[quote]pushharder wrote:Sam’s obsessed with a particular rabbit[/quote][i]I’m obsessed with the glory of Jesus which I cannot get out of my heart will be so greatly magnified by your being delivered and filled with His Spirit. Just as with your very spotty at best knowledge of anything biblical outside of the terrible unorthodox scholarship of one paperback book, your assessment of me and this whole situation is not even close Push. If you met me for one minute in real life you would know that.

You are the most quintessential poster child of the spirit of this age I have ever seen. (my problem with Aragorn too, but you have him beat by a lot) Your testimony would be simply priceless in the advancement of the kingdom of my God and His Christ. Not thirty minutes ago I went before His holy throne, who’s eternal election cannot fail, and begged to see His mercy and might revealed in you. I would be first in line to put my hand in yours and go into battle for His name’s sake.

THAT is my driving obsession in every last word I say to or about you. Whether you, or any of the rest of these people who also have no idea what I’m talkin about get that or not is beyond my control.[/i]

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Just a slight “action break”.

How is your ailing horse, Push?

Mufasa

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[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Just a slight “action break”.

How is your ailing horse, Push?

Mufasa[/quote]

I think we need to get the site to make this thread pay-per-view Push.

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[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:

[quote]thick88 wrote:
Just as someone who routinely produces wine(& Beer) in a “very primitive” manner it is indeed very possible that “uncontrolled” or wild fermentation will produce a beverage of 7+% abv that tastes REALLY good.[/quote]
I was waiting for someone that makes their own to comment;-]

Establishing typical alcohol contents for back then I think is really difficult. For an idea of how primitive primitive was, search the word “wine” in this Pdf:

http://www.bib-arch.org/e-books/pdf/israel.pdf

[quote]I also think “new wine” refers to exactly that new but definitely fermented wine, that may still have a bit of yeast activity left (perhaps stirred up by bottling?). Every winemaker has had exploding bottles, & peoples of Biblical times likely didn’t even have hydrometers to use, so just guessed at bottling times.

That’s all I got, very interesting thread, thank you gentlemen. [/quote]

Here is a well written, and I think evenhanded article on the topic of drink in the bible. The bibliography lists 9 books on the specific subject of wine and drinking:

Notice the erroneous information he got from a few standard encyclopedias.[/quote]
Thanks for those! very interesting, I agree there is most likely some misunderstanding due to translating every grape based beverage as “wine” which of course is immediately assumed to mean fermented by the modern mind.

They were actually more sophisticated in their winemaking(fermenting) then I had thought. Would LOVE to find one of those clay fermemention vessels & craft some “authentic” Philistine wine.

Thanks again for the info.

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[quote]pushharder wrote:

Chen is shaking his head with disappointment. All he did is encourage you to go out and do some more sinning.

;-)[/quote]
LOL, I can’t win on this thread.

And then again perhaps not. I may have inspired an archeological dig, which will likely take away from his wine-making hobby. And I think he will be carrying water in those water bottles, or Gatoraid.

Brings back memories of jackhammers and cement dust. Gimme a swig of that water man.