[quote]pushharder wrote:
There is NO alcoholic prohibition doctrine in the Bible…not here in Proverbs nor anywhere else in Scripture…UNLESS one cherry-picks verses…and does not study the Bible literally and systematically and also eschews the point by point method.[/quote]
I know that. We were talking about whether or not Jesus created barrels of alcoholic wine, for wedding goers to get sloshed on.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
The exact same guy who wrote the proverb about DRUNKENNESS in Prov 23, the “degenerate” with multiple wives and girlfriends, and under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit wrote this in Ecclesiastes:
"I know that there is nothing better for people than to be happy and to do good while they live. That each of them may eat and drink, and find satisfaction in all their toil - this is the gift of God. "
and
“Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do.”[/quote]
I have no problem with these verses. They do not contradict what I said above.
[ADDED] I’ll explain why:
Your first verse above is 2:24, and the other is from Ch 5, correct? You must keep in mind when reading Ecclesiastes, you are reading about worldly wisdom “under the sun” 1:3. In fact he calls it “vanity”. He is experimenting to find in the world what will make a man happy:
(Ecc 1:17 KJV) And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.
The first several verses in Ch 2 also make this very clear.
The verses you quote are not the Holy Spirits admonition to this way of life, rather they are an inspired record of Solomon’s experiment. His conclusions are intermixed with observations all throughout the book. Job’s friends are a similar inspired record, though not admonitions.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Proverbs are smart aka wise things to do and not do. They are not inviolable commands from God of which the breaking of them constitutes sin.[/quote]
They are certainly at least that. But since it’s in the bible I would say God intends them to be more. Do you require scripture to add a “thou shalt not” or “thus saith the Lord” to the front before you take it as God’s expectation?
[quote]If they were then every woman who did not engage in real estate transactions and was not a viticulturist would be a sinner.
Example: Proverbs 31:16
She (the wife of noble character) considers a field and buys it;
out of her earnings she plants a vineyard. [/quote]
Well, I see what your trying to say here of course. I quoted a prohibition. This passage however is an admonition to virtue. I certainly don’t think if woman cannot attain to these specific accomplishments, she is definitely sinning.
The better way to apply this would be to say a stay at home mom that watches soap operas all day instead of exhibiting some industriousness on behalf of her family is sinning.
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
There is NO alcoholic prohibition doctrine in the Bible…not here in Proverbs nor anywhere else in Scripture…UNLESS one cherry-picks verses…and does not study the Bible literally and systematically and also eschews the point by point method.[/quote]
I know that. We were talking about whether or not Jesus created barrels of alcoholic wine, for wedding goers to get sloshed on.[/quote]
Well, I have no real opinion on this matter, but I assume that if Jesus throws a party, its a rather good one.
Divine even.
What that one step too far 0:-) …
[quote]orion wrote:
Also, I am not quite sure whether Jesus = The Lord and whether using Jesus to make a point is “taking his name in vain”.[/quote]
I see. Well, I’m glad I didn’t punch you in the face back there then.
Keep studying.
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
Also, I am not quite sure whether Jesus = The Lord and whether using Jesus to make a point is “taking his name in vain”.[/quote]
I see. Well, I’m glad I didn’t punch you in the face back there then.
Keep studying.[/quote]
I might as well have said “Good Lord, these guys can drink”.
While this inches a little closer to “taking his name in vain”, it is still closer to a job description than His actual name.
Jehova, these guys can drink would have been unambiguous. but who says that?
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
Also, I am not quite sure whether Jesus = The Lord and whether using Jesus to make a point is “taking his name in vain”.[/quote]
I see. Well, I’m glad I didn’t punch you in the face back there then.
Keep studying.[/quote]
I might as well have said “Good Lord, these guys can drink”.
While this inches a little closer to “taking his name in vain”, it is still closer to a job description than His actual name.
Jehova, these guys can drink would have been unambiguous. but who says that? [/quote]
I think the idea of taking His name in vain is to use it for levity, or of course in cursing.
You should quit while you’re ahead.
It appears Push is not awake yet. What a bum. Look what time it is in Montana.
Now I have to go to sleep. I will set out my claymores, so he’d better be careful.
Btw Mr. Chen, I tried to ask my Pentecostal friend your question. Unfortunately he’s visiting his family in Ghana for the next 2 months. I can’t get a hold of him.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
It does NOT require you to pull the verses apart.[/quote]
Why it certainly does. Your position is to divorce the verse about wine from the behavior it’s matched with in the passage. By inference, you say- if you subtract this behavior, it’s ok.
If you’re going to roll with me bro, you’re going to have to do better than that. What “numerous other pertinent passages?” In fact, it is never directly indicated to be acceptable in the bible. You are inferring it’s okay, because you cannot find a passage that specifically prohibits it. There are no passages that specifically prohibit cigarette smoking. So it’s okay right? Your logic would make it’s okay, as long as you go in strict moderation, like a recreational smoker. The problem is, you don’t know which recreational smokers will ratchet up their habit to become a threat to their health.
No, I wouldn’t say that based on my earlier logic from above. Reason? Because they are 2 different activities. One is drinking alcohol. The other is eating food. What you want to do here is make them just like each other, but THEY ARE NOT.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
Remember, I brought this alcohol deal up for a reason; it was not really about specifically discussing alcohol in the Bible.
Are you with me?
Do you “get it?”[/quote]
I sure do. I thought I would take a few lines and correct your view on alcohol as well. It’s no strain on me. I still haven’t untied the other half of my brain yet, so don’t be concerned for my sake.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
As to the Cana wedding question, I’ll address all your comments in this one post. I’m working with half my brain tied behind my back, so it’ll be easier for me.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
In a way this discussion reminds me of the teetotalers who INSIST that Jesus would NEVER had made actual alcoholic wine at the wedding in Cana. “No way!!!”
However, the “systematic” approach taken by the teetotaling crowd will simply not allow this, the proper, interpretation. [/quote]
I’m not interested in upholding anyone’s specific understanding. Before I was a Christian, I liked wine a lot. If the Saviour approved, I’d be glad to have a glass.
You are criticizing the systematic approach because you think it disagrees with your understanding of their culture.
First, I’ll say that Jesus is not obligated to do things according to the prevailing habits of the people as far as what was drunk at the average wedding. His motivation is righteousness first, not what will make everyone happy. So, he would be keeping in mind:
Pro 23:31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
Hab 2:15 Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also, that thou mayest look on their nakedness!
[quote]Makavali wrote:
Unfermented wine? That’s just grape juice, why wouldn’t the Bible just say that instead of wine? If he’s creating this stuff out of water, I’m pretty sure they would make the effort to be somewhat accurate.[/quote]
In the bible, “wine” is a general term. There is “new” and “old.” Please note:
Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Obviously, as the wine gets old it ferments, which would cause and old bottle to explode.
Yes, new wine is grapejuice, as this passages makes clear:
Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.
One must also keep in mind that “wine” making was very primitive back then. Not the scientifically controlled process they use to day. Uncontrolled fermentation would not yield something that’s 7-10% alcohol, AND still taste good. NOBODY was drinking Christian Brothers back then. Sorry young Orion, it’s just more shenanigans by the monks.
And the systematic approach is required if you’re going to get it right, and to be one of the big boys:
Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
[/quote]
What is it you are saying about drinking? All wine was alcoholic in the ancient world right? Getting drunk is not always bad right? i.e. Noah, Abraham etc I don’t think there are many people who would argue that being a drunkard is okay but the beneficial aspects of alcohol were and are well known.
‘Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine often infirmities.’ - 1 Timothy 5:23[/quote]
I don’t think in all cases “wine” is alcoholic. See the passage above where it’s referred to as “fruit of the vine.” The other thing is the alcohol content was often not as high. It’s fairly precisely controlled these days.
Chemically speaking, alcohol is a nerve toxin. Some will argue it’s good for the relaxation benefits in small amounts. Other scientists will suggest even that’s not a good idea. In the bible, a Nazarite is not allowed to touch it. The benefit Paul is suggesting it for is the acidity, which would help Timothy with his digestion. It’s the vinegar cure basically. But I bet you could find some that would say Paul is advising Timothy to have a glass of port in the evening to combat his job stress.
Push-
I added the following after submitting. Here it is again from pg 18:
I have no problem with these verses. They do not contradict what I said above.
[ADDED] I’ll explain why:
Your first verse above is 2:24, and the other is from Ch 5, correct? You must keep in mind when reading Ecclesiastes, you are reading about worldly wisdom “under the sun” 1:3. In fact he calls it “vanity”. He is experimenting to find in the world what will make a man happy:
(Ecc 1:17 KJV) And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.
The first several verses in Ch 2 also make this very clear.
The verses you quote are not the Holy Spirits admonition to this way of life, rather they are an inspired record of Solomon’s experiment. His conclusions are intermixed with observations all throughout the book. Job’s friends are a similar inspired record, though not admonitions.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
There are plenty of other pertinent passages and you know it. Google is your buddy. Strong’s Concordance is your friend. I will not spend the time to wait on you hand and foot and deliver this to you on a platter. [/quote]
And I have both, and kind find whatever I need to refer to very quickly. If you don’t want to take the time to support your position in a detailed way, that’s fine.
(2Ti 2:15 KJV) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Laziness brings shame. Victorious living comes as a result of diligent study. Your statement above is a cop out.
Each one of the above could be a sin in any individual case:
Didn’t your mother not expressly tell you not to go skating on the thin ice? You sinful boy, you disobeyed your mom.
As far as the other dangerous activities, if you’re a father with young sons, it may very well be a sin for you to wreck yourself by doing them. Obviously, you as a God fearing father who prays about all his life choices, would have the Holy Spirit’s guidance to tell you that. It would be an individual thing, therefore you wouldn’t find them written out in the bible.