Christianity and Islam Similarities

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

But let’s stay with John, where even earlier the the Spirit, is clearly the holy spirit.

Jesus answered, ?I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit ? The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit? (John 3:5-6, 8).

Cut to John 7

37On the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood up and exclaimed, ?Let anyone who thirsts come to me and drink.u 38Whoever believes in me, as scripture says:

?Rivers of living water* will flow from within him.??v

39He said this in reference to the Spirit that those who came to believe in him were to receive. There was, of course, no Spirit yet,* because Jesus had not yet been glorified.w

How about John 14?

?If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever?the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you? (John 14:15-18).

?But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you? (John 14:26).

And more…

22

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
The Holy spirit is initiative.[/quote]

From acts.

33Exalted at the right hand of God, he received the promise of the holy Spirit from the Father and poured it forth, as you (both) see and hear.

The Holy Spirit is sent (poured) forth.
[/quote]

Once again, a spirit to fill, not a “He to speak what he’s heard”[/quote]

“…as you see and hear.”
[/quote]

Here’s the whole thing:

“I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 14He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. 15All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.”

On another note, there’s a great similarity between the Holy Spirit and the ghost presence that follows the Mayfair Witch family in the Anne Rice’s novels. I used to think it was amazing and wonderful; now I’m wondering how I didn’t notice the creepy factor.

23

[quote]Sloth wrote:

39He said this in reference to the Spirit that those who came to believe in him were to receive. There was, of course, no Spirit yet,* because Jesus had not yet been glorified.w

[/quote]

This isn’t true. The Holy Spirit was mentioned numerous times in the old testament as coming down and filling various leaders. In addition, he filled Jesus.

In the Old Testament of the Bible or the Law and the Prophets and the Psalms (Isa. 8:20) only King David mentions the Holy Spirit three times in the Psalm. He writes â??Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me (Ps 51:11).â?? â??But they rebelled, and vexed his Holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. 11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him (Isa 63:10-11)?â??

â??Then Yahweh (the LORD) said to Moses, 2 â??See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of Elohim (God), with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts 4 to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, 5 to cut and set stones, to work in wood, and to engage in all kinds of craftsmanship (Ex 31:1-5)

The Spirit of Yahweh rested upon many of the judges, such as Orthniel, Gideon and Samson, giving them phenomenal power, which enabled them to govern Israel, and aided them to defeat the enemies of Israel (Jud. 3;10; 6:34).

In reference to Jesus having the Holy Spirit within him before he was resurrected:

I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit. And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God." (John 1:29-34).

24

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

39He said this in reference to the Spirit that those who came to believe in him were to receive. There was, of course, no Spirit yet,* because Jesus had not yet been glorified.w

[/quote]

This isn’t true. The Holy Spirit was mentioned numerous times in the old testament as coming down and filling various leaders. In addition, he filled Jesus.

In the Old Testament of the Bible or the Law and the Prophets and the Psalms (Isa. 8:20) only King David mentions the Holy Spirit three times in the Psalm. He writes �?�¢??Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me (Ps 51:11).�?�¢?? �?�¢??But they rebelled, and vexed his Holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. 11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him (Isa 63:10-11)?�?�¢??

�?�¢??Then Yahweh (the LORD) said to Moses, 2 �?�¢??See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of Elohim (God), with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts 4 to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, 5 to cut and set stones, to work in wood, and to engage in all kinds of craftsmanship (Ex 31:1-5)

The Spirit of Yahweh rested upon many of the judges, such as Orthniel, Gideon and Samson, giving them phenomenal power, which enabled them to govern Israel, and aided them to defeat the enemies of Israel (Jud. 3;10; 6:34).

In reference to Jesus having the Holy Spirit within him before he was resurrected:

I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit. And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God." (John 1:29-34).[/quote]

Oleena, the Spirit has not been sent upon them, those that believed in Jesus, yet.

37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, �¢??Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.�¢??[c] 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

See the Pentecost

25

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

39He said this in reference to the Spirit that those who came to believe in him were to receive. There was, of course, no Spirit yet,* because Jesus had not yet been glorified.w

[/quote]

This isn’t true. The Holy Spirit was mentioned numerous times in the old testament as coming down and filling various leaders. In addition, he filled Jesus.

In the Old Testament of the Bible or the Law and the Prophets and the Psalms (Isa. 8:20) only King David mentions the Holy Spirit three times in the Psalm. He writes �¢??Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me (Ps 51:11).�¢?? �¢??But they rebelled, and vexed his Holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. 11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him (Isa 63:10-11)?�¢??

�¢??Then Yahweh (the LORD) said to Moses, 2 �¢??See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of Elohim (God), with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts 4 to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, 5 to cut and set stones, to work in wood, and to engage in all kinds of craftsmanship (Ex 31:1-5)

The Spirit of Yahweh rested upon many of the judges, such as Orthniel, Gideon and Samson, giving them phenomenal power, which enabled them to govern Israel, and aided them to defeat the enemies of Israel (Jud. 3;10; 6:34).

In reference to Jesus having the Holy Spirit within him before he was resurrected:

I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit. And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God." (John 1:29-34).[/quote]

Oleena, the Spirit has not been sent the them, those that believed in Jesus, yet.

37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, â??Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.â??[c] 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

[/quote]

Ok I thought you were implying that the Holy Spirit didn’t truly exist and descend on anyone before Jesus’ resurrection. Your exact wording was “there was no spirit yet” not “there was no spirit upon them yet”.

26

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

39He said this in reference to the Spirit that those who came to believe in him were to receive. There was, of course, no Spirit yet,* because Jesus had not yet been glorified.w

[/quote]

This isn’t true. The Holy Spirit was mentioned numerous times in the old testament as coming down and filling various leaders. In addition, he filled Jesus.

In the Old Testament of the Bible or the Law and the Prophets and the Psalms (Isa. 8:20) only King David mentions the Holy Spirit three times in the Psalm. He writes �??�?�¢??Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me (Ps 51:11).�??�?�¢?? �??�?�¢??But they rebelled, and vexed his Holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. 11 Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him (Isa 63:10-11)?�??�?�¢??

�??�?�¢??Then Yahweh (the LORD) said to Moses, 2 �??�?�¢??See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, 3 and I have filled him with the Spirit of Elohim (God), with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts 4 to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, 5 to cut and set stones, to work in wood, and to engage in all kinds of craftsmanship (Ex 31:1-5)

The Spirit of Yahweh rested upon many of the judges, such as Orthniel, Gideon and Samson, giving them phenomenal power, which enabled them to govern Israel, and aided them to defeat the enemies of Israel (Jud. 3;10; 6:34).

In reference to Jesus having the Holy Spirit within him before he was resurrected:

I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit. And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God." (John 1:29-34).[/quote]

Oleena, the Spirit has not been sent the them, those that believed in Jesus, yet.

37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, �?�¢??Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.�?�¢??[c] 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

[/quote]

Ok I thought you were implying that the Holy Spirit didn’t truly exist and descend on anyone before Jesus’ resurrection. Your exact wording was “there was no spirit yet” not “there was no spirit upon them yet”.
[/quote]

Ah, ok. No, that’s me not being clear enough. I was focused on Jesus’ contemporaries (apostles and so on), as he was foretelling when they would be gifted (after he was gone).

27

Another thing God’s incapable of: forgiving those who speak against the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 12:30-32: ?Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy. But the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Eternal damnation for those who speak against the Holy Spirit but salvation for those who slaughter, rape, and repent? And you want to follow this person/thing?

I understand that you can’t hold him to the same standards you expect for yourself, but imagine for two second that you could. How petty would he seem? Imagine you met a guy who was willing to forgive any unpardonable, as long as everyone proclaimed he was king (much like our current presidents). This guy knows that some people with good intentions will deny him and chooses to give the pedophile eternal life instead of them. Would you think this was loving and just, if you were judging a fellow human?

28

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Another thing God’s incapable of: forgiving those who speak against the Holy Spirit.
[/quote]

It give atheists a way to look daring in public, I suppose. Otherwise, I’m not particularly moved to reassure atheists the fairness of the afterlife they don’t believe in. /Shrug. Most believe I’m going to oblivion, but I don’t offense.

29

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Another thing God’s incapable of: forgiving those who speak against the Holy Spirit.
[/quote]

It give atheists a way to look daring in public, I suppose. Otherwise, I’m not particularly moved to reassure atheists the fairness of the afterlife they don’t believe in. /Shrug. Most believe I’m going to oblivion, but I don’t offense.
[/quote]

In your opinion do you think it’s right though? Do you think that people who act morally in every way but reject god should burn in hell for all of eternity?

I’m asking for your specific opinion.

30

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Another thing God’s incapable of: forgiving those who speak against the Holy Spirit.
[/quote]

It give atheists a way to look daring in public, I suppose. Otherwise, I’m not particularly moved to reassure atheists the fairness of the afterlife they don’t believe in. /Shrug. Most believe I’m going to oblivion, but I don’t offense.
[/quote]

In your opinion do you think it’s right though? Do you think that people who act morally in every way but reject god should burn in hell for all of eternity?

I’m asking for your specific opinion.[/quote]

First, they haven’t acted morally ‘in every’ way. No one does. And, most grievously in rejecting him who could/would absolve him.

Sure.

31

Narrow gates, folks.

32

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Another thing God’s incapable of: forgiving those who speak against the Holy Spirit.
[/quote]

It give atheists a way to look daring in public, I suppose. Otherwise, I’m not particularly moved to reassure atheists the fairness of the afterlife they don’t believe in. /Shrug. Most believe I’m going to oblivion, but I don’t offense.
[/quote]

Isn’t it your responsibility to reach out to all nonbelievers?

In addition, here we go dodging questions again. I wish that for once, just one Christian or Catholic or Jew would honestly answer the question about how they would judge a man who acted like God is described. Would you honestly want to follow that man?

33

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Another thing God’s incapable of: forgiving those who speak against the Holy Spirit.
[/quote]

It give atheists a way to look daring in public, I suppose. Otherwise, I’m not particularly moved to reassure atheists the fairness of the afterlife they don’t believe in. /Shrug. Most believe I’m going to oblivion, but I don’t offense.
[/quote]

In your opinion do you think it’s right though? Do you think that people who act morally in every way but reject god should burn in hell for all of eternity?

I’m asking for your specific opinion.[/quote]

First, they haven’t acted morally ‘in every’ way. No one does. And, most grievously in rejecting him who could/would absolve him.

Sure.[/quote]

So basically you’re saying is you think it’s just that all non-Christians no matter what else they did in their life deserve eternal torture?

34

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Another thing God’s incapable of: forgiving those who speak against the Holy Spirit.
[/quote]

It give atheists a way to look daring in public, I suppose. Otherwise, I’m not particularly moved to reassure atheists the fairness of the afterlife they don’t believe in. /Shrug. Most believe I’m going to oblivion, but I don’t offense.
[/quote]

In your opinion do you think it’s right though? Do you think that people who act morally in every way but reject god should burn in hell for all of eternity?

I’m asking for your specific opinion.[/quote]

First, they haven’t acted morally ‘in every’ way. No one does. And, most grievously in rejecting him who could/would absolve him.

Sure.[/quote]

So basically you’re saying is you think it’s just that all non-Christians no matter what else they did in their life deserve eternal torture?
[/quote]

Yeah buddy.

35

Yet he still dodges the question about whether or not he would want to follow a man who acted like god is described to (as I posted above).

36

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Another thing God’s incapable of: forgiving those who speak against the Holy Spirit.
[/quote]

It give atheists a way to look daring in public, I suppose. Otherwise, I’m not particularly moved to reassure atheists the fairness of the afterlife they don’t believe in. /Shrug. Most believe I’m going to oblivion, but I don’t offense.
[/quote]

In your opinion do you think it’s right though? Do you think that people who act morally in every way but reject god should burn in hell for all of eternity?

I’m asking for your specific opinion.[/quote]

First, they haven’t acted morally ‘in every’ way. No one does. And, most grievously in rejecting him who could/would absolve him.

Sure.[/quote]

So basically you’re saying is you think it’s just that all non-Christians no matter what else they did in their life deserve eternal torture?
[/quote]

Yeah buddy.
[/quote]

Well, at least your honest. No matter how horrid that opinion may be.

37

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Yet he still dodges the question about whether or not he would want to follow a man who acted like god is described to (as I posted above).[/quote]

A man who acted like God? No. That’s God’s jurisdiction.

38

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Another thing God’s incapable of: forgiving those who speak against the Holy Spirit.
[/quote]

It give atheists a way to look daring in public, I suppose. Otherwise, I’m not particularly moved to reassure atheists the fairness of the afterlife they don’t believe in. /Shrug. Most believe I’m going to oblivion, but I don’t offense.
[/quote]

In your opinion do you think it’s right though? Do you think that people who act morally in every way but reject god should burn in hell for all of eternity?

I’m asking for your specific opinion.[/quote]

First, they haven’t acted morally ‘in every’ way. No one does. And, most grievously in rejecting him who could/would absolve him.

Sure.[/quote]

So basically you’re saying is you think it’s just that all non-Christians no matter what else they did in their life deserve eternal torture?
[/quote]

Yeah buddy.
[/quote]

Well, at least your honest. No matter how horrid that opinion may be.

[/quote]

Well, isn’t that relative?

39

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Another thing God’s incapable of: forgiving those who speak against the Holy Spirit.
[/quote]

It give atheists a way to look daring in public, I suppose. Otherwise, I’m not particularly moved to reassure atheists the fairness of the afterlife they don’t believe in. /Shrug. Most believe I’m going to oblivion, but I don’t offense.
[/quote]

In your opinion do you think it’s right though? Do you think that people who act morally in every way but reject god should burn in hell for all of eternity?

I’m asking for your specific opinion.[/quote]

First, they haven’t acted morally ‘in every’ way. No one does. And, most grievously in rejecting him who could/would absolve him.

Sure.[/quote]

So basically you’re saying is you think it’s just that all non-Christians no matter what else they did in their life deserve eternal torture?
[/quote]

Yeah buddy.
[/quote]

Well, at least your honest. No matter how horrid that opinion may be.

[/quote]

Well, isn’t that relative?
[/quote]

No.

By definition infinite punishment for a finite crime is unjust.

40

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Another thing God’s incapable of: forgiving those who speak against the Holy Spirit.
[/quote]

It give atheists a way to look daring in public, I suppose. Otherwise, I’m not particularly moved to reassure atheists the fairness of the afterlife they don’t believe in. /Shrug. Most believe I’m going to oblivion, but I don’t offense.
[/quote]

In your opinion do you think it’s right though? Do you think that people who act morally in every way but reject god should burn in hell for all of eternity?

I’m asking for your specific opinion.[/quote]

First, they haven’t acted morally ‘in every’ way. No one does. And, most grievously in rejecting him who could/would absolve him.

Sure.[/quote]

So basically you’re saying is you think it’s just that all non-Christians no matter what else they did in their life deserve eternal torture?
[/quote]

Yeah buddy.
[/quote]

Well, at least your honest. No matter how horrid that opinion may be.

[/quote]

It’s scary in light of this:

I’ve been meaning to make that it’s own thread for quite some time.