Christian Terrorists

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< …you’re not only arrogant, but a hypocrite aswell. You fail to understand that you’re opponents you call “violent criminals” see you in the same light, and they also believe they are justified using violence for similar reasons. It’s a truly vicious circle…
[/quote]
People like you fail to grasp the truth of your own statements sometimes. It is a vicious cycle indeed. Always has been, always will be. Only deluded suicidal, though maybe well meaning dreamers dare believe otherwise. Vicious cycle that it is, I will say for the 100th time. The team with the biggest gun and willingness to use it wins.

AHHHHH, THERE HE GOES!!! WADDA WAR MONGERING PARANOID AGGRESSIVE KILLER!!! NO WONDER THE WORLD HATES AMERICA!!!

I cannot help that perception, but have no fear friend. Sooner than you think pax Americana will probably be ending in earnest and you and the rest of the sniveling ungrateful world will have your chance to experience the alternatives first hand.[/quote]

…there’ll be interesting times my friend, that’s for sure…

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< …you’re not only arrogant, but a hypocrite aswell. You fail to understand that you’re opponents you call “violent criminals” see you in the same light, and they also believe they are justified using violence for similar reasons. It’s a truly vicious circle…
[/quote]
People like you fail to grasp the truth of your own statements sometimes. It is a vicious cycle indeed. Always has been, always will be. Only deluded suicidal, though maybe well meaning dreamers dare believe otherwise. Vicious cycle that it is, I will say for the 100th time. The team with the biggest gun and willingness to use it wins.

AHHHHH, THERE HE GOES!!! WADDA WAR MONGERING PARANOID AGGRESSIVE KILLER!!! NO WONDER THE WORLD HATES AMERICA!!!

I cannot help that perception, but have no fear friend. Sooner than you think pax Americana will probably be ending in earnest and you and the rest of the sniveling ungrateful world will have your chance to experience the alternatives first hand.[/quote]

…there’ll be interesting times my friend, that’s for sure…
[/quote]
Of that you can rest assured. I predict right here and now that the United States for all her faults and mistakes will be dearly missed in her obnoxious role as world leader once the reality of what that has actually meant to modern human civilization begins to become unavoidably clear in the wake of our decline.

There will be untold multitudes in very unlikely places thinking to themselves and some maybe even going so radically far as to say out loud [quote]Hmmmm, maybe those damnable Americans weren’t quite as evil as we thought[/quote]

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< …you’re not only arrogant, but a hypocrite aswell. You fail to understand that you’re opponents you call “violent criminals” see you in the same light, and they also believe they are justified using violence for similar reasons. It’s a truly vicious circle…
[/quote]
People like you fail to grasp the truth of your own statements sometimes. It is a vicious cycle indeed. Always has been, always will be. Only deluded suicidal, though maybe well meaning dreamers dare believe otherwise. Vicious cycle that it is, I will say for the 100th time. The team with the biggest gun and willingness to use it wins.

AHHHHH, THERE HE GOES!!! WADDA WAR MONGERING PARANOID AGGRESSIVE KILLER!!! NO WONDER THE WORLD HATES AMERICA!!!

I cannot help that perception, but have no fear friend. Sooner than you think pax Americana will probably be ending in earnest and you and the rest of the sniveling ungrateful world will have your chance to experience the alternatives first hand.[/quote]

…there’ll be interesting times my friend, that’s for sure…
[/quote]
Of that you can rest assured. I predict right here and now that the United States for all her faults and mistakes will be dearly missed in her obnoxious role as world leader once the reality of what that has actually meant to modern human civilization begins to become unavoidably clear in the wake of our decline.

There will be untold multitudes in very unlikely places thinking to themselves and some maybe even going so radically far as to say out loud [quote]Hmmmm, maybe those damnable Americans weren’t quite as evil as we thought[/quote] [/quote]

…cultures and societies do crumble, and you’ve risen to great heights in record time. Your downfall will perhaps be just as swiftly. That’s just how things go Trib, and no doubt there will be turmoil. I don’t think there ever was a time without turmoil, so we’ll just have to wait and see. In a thousand years this’ll all be history anyways, so lighten up and light one up!

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

[quote]lixy wrote:
Israel is, sadly, still a thorn in the butt of almost every Arab alive and the recent colonial past of every majority-Muslim country doesn’t help one bit. [/quote]

Here’s a little thought experiment for you: well, for everyone, actually.

Let’s imagine that EVERY fact is and was the same, except that the people in question were some Muslim minority that had been living in other parts of the world, but historically had been living in – let’s not use a historically biased word – Canaan. That is to say, west of the Jordan River.

Members of this Muslim minority began returning to the area and individually purchased properties by voluntary agreement from existing landowners.

Then the whole deal comes with the UN recognizing them and setting up a state, let’s say that there were the same wars with other Muslims over a wish that they weren’t there but rather the “Palestinians.”

They have other Muslims be citizens of their country with same rights as everybody, but the reverse is not true and other Muslim groups constantly commit terrorism against them. Their repsonse is the same as has been the case in actuality.

Now, it’s easy to dismiss a question of this sort by saying it is like asking, “If the moon were made of cheese, and there big mice in space, would space cats eat the mice before they got to the cheese?” Or in other words to assert that the question has no possible reality and so is meaningless. But that can’t be said here. The above scenario would be entirely possible. It can’t be asserted that Arabs and/or Muslims never fight each other exactly as would be described above. Happens all the time, and has happened throughout history.

This is an entirely realistic scenario. So it is reasonable to consider: what if all circumstances were the same but the religion of the party establishing and holding onto this new state?

How much of a “thorn in the butt of almost every Arab [and/or Muslim] alive” would it be if the people in question weren’t Jewish, but were Muslim?

I believe the answer would be “none.”

What would your view be if everything were identical but their religion?

If the answer is that it would be different, then isn’t this religious-based hatred or at the least religious-based discrimination to such an extent as to lead to wars and terrorism, etc?

It might be that in your case you chose the word Arab because you believe it is race-based hatred or discrimination. If so I would agree that that could be the case as well, but let’s for now look at it from the religious standpoint, as I rather doubt if the Israelis were racially Arab but were of the Jewish faith that you all would like them any better for it.

???[/quote]

Fair point. The conclusion you draw is nonetheless speculative (please note that I’m not dismissing it as wrong). It may be wishful thinking on my part to believe things would be in any way different were the Palestinians to have a viable state. I don’t know. But what I’m pretty certain of, is that the status-quo in the Middle-East isn’t helping quell radical expressions of Islam in the Arab world (I refer to the “Arab” world because it is the source of Wahabi/Salafist movements). Can you consider conceding that much (or little)?

And a Happy Easter to you!

[quote]Chushin wrote:

Perhaps that has something to do with the FREQUENCY of Islam-inspired terrorism, as opposed to Christian?

Ever hear of the expression, “the exception that proves the rule?”

Care to venture a guess on the respective tallies of “Christian” vs “Muslim” terrorism in, say, the last 20 years?

[Edit: 20, not 2][/quote]

Over here in Britian and Ireland it’s something like Christians 100 vs muslims 1 (Protestants and Catholics)

Just saying you should think before you say something like that.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
It is man that is inherently bad, so that which man’s takes part in can be bad as well.

Atheism can be bad as well, again because man can be bad.

[/quote]
But nobody kills or commits suicide bombings in the name of atheism. In the name of religion however…

[quote]lixy wrote:
<<< Fair point. The conclusion you draw is nonetheless speculative (please note that I’m not dismissing it as wrong). It may be wishful thinking on my part to believe things would be in any way different were the Palestinians to have a viable state. I don’t know. But what I’m pretty certain of, is that the status-quo in the Middle-East isn’t helping quell radical expressions of Islam in the Arab world (I refer to the “Arab” world because it is the source of Wahabi/Salafist movements). Can you consider conceding that much (or little)?

And a Happy Easter to you![/quote]
I think Sweden’s rubbin off on you man. The meatballs are mellowing you out or something.

[quote]molnes wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
It is man that is inherently bad, so that which man’s takes part in can be bad as well.

Atheism can be bad as well, again because man can be bad.

[/quote]
But nobody kills or commits suicide bombings in the name of atheism. In the name of religion however…[/quote]
No, instead they create whole societies of oppression, squalor and genocide.

[quote]lixy wrote:

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

[quote]lixy wrote:
Israel is, sadly, still a thorn in the butt of almost every Arab alive and the recent colonial past of every majority-Muslim country doesn’t help one bit. [/quote]

Here’s a little thought experiment for you: well, for everyone, actually.

Let’s imagine that EVERY fact is and was the same, except that the people in question were some Muslim minority that had been living in other parts of the world, but historically had been living in – let’s not use a historically biased word – Canaan. That is to say, west of the Jordan River.

Members of this Muslim minority began returning to the area and individually purchased properties by voluntary agreement from existing landowners.

Then the whole deal comes with the UN recognizing them and setting up a state, let’s say that there were the same wars with other Muslims over a wish that they weren’t there but rather the “Palestinians.”

They have other Muslims be citizens of their country with same rights as everybody, but the reverse is not true and other Muslim groups constantly commit terrorism against them. Their repsonse is the same as has been the case in actuality.

Now, it’s easy to dismiss a question of this sort by saying it is like asking, “If the moon were made of cheese, and there big mice in space, would space cats eat the mice before they got to the cheese?” Or in other words to assert that the question has no possible reality and so is meaningless. But that can’t be said here. The above scenario would be entirely possible. It can’t be asserted that Arabs and/or Muslims never fight each other exactly as would be described above. Happens all the time, and has happened throughout history.

This is an entirely realistic scenario. So it is reasonable to consider: what if all circumstances were the same but the religion of the party establishing and holding onto this new state?

How much of a “thorn in the butt of almost every Arab [and/or Muslim] alive” would it be if the people in question weren’t Jewish, but were Muslim?

I believe the answer would be “none.”

What would your view be if everything were identical but their religion?

If the answer is that it would be different, then isn’t this religious-based hatred or at the least religious-based discrimination to such an extent as to lead to wars and terrorism, etc?

It might be that in your case you chose the word Arab because you believe it is race-based hatred or discrimination. If so I would agree that that could be the case as well, but let’s for now look at it from the religious standpoint, as I rather doubt if the Israelis were racially Arab but were of the Jewish faith that you all would like them any better for it.

???[/quote]

Fair point. The conclusion you draw is nonetheless speculative (please note that I’m not dismissing it as wrong). It may be wishful thinking on my part to believe things would be in any way different were the Palestinians to have a viable state. I don’t know. But what I’m pretty certain of, is that the status-quo in the Middle-East isn’t helping quell radical expressions of Islam in the Arab world (I refer to the “Arab” world because it is the source of Wahabi/Salafist movements). Can you consider conceding that much (or little)?

And a Happy Easter to you![/quote]

Thanks, Lixy! That is thoughtful of you.

Yes, I agree radical expressions of Islam are not reduced by the Israeli/Palestinian situation. I would go further and say that they find fuel in this. Though frankly I tend to believe that the more radical of them would not proclaim themselves satisfied until every Jew was dead or out of the Middle East, and so I don’t think there is any satisfying them. And so striving to make compromises on the belief that this will appease them will not bring any further peace – it never has – but only new further demands, together with rockets and suicide bombings.

There’s also the consideration that a Palestinian signature on a peace accord has over time been thoroughly proven to never be worth the ink that it wasted. They always rapidly revert to more violence coupled with more demands.

[quote]thefederalist wrote:
nothing to do with Christianity, everything to do with inbreeding.[/quote]

The first semi intelligent post I have ever seen from you.

“Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.”

                                                                  1 Samuel 15:3

Gotta love the bible. I keep a prayer book on top of my shitter and came across this one while “meditating”.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]molnes wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
It is man that is inherently bad, so that which man’s takes part in can be bad as well.

Atheism can be bad as well, again because man can be bad.

[/quote]
But nobody kills or commits suicide bombings in the name of atheism. In the name of religion however…[/quote]
No, instead they create whole societies of oppression, squalor and genocide.[/quote]

The point is that religion provides an outlet for disgusting behavior which might not otherwise manifest itself. I’d also like to see this society of squalor and genocide founded by atheism.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]molnes wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
It is man that is inherently bad, so that which man’s takes part in can be bad as well.

Atheism can be bad as well, again because man can be bad.

[/quote]
But nobody kills or commits suicide bombings in the name of atheism. In the name of religion however…[/quote]
No, instead they create whole societies of oppression, squalor and genocide.[/quote]
You obviously didn’t get my point. Some crimes are committed because of religion. No crime has been committed because of atheism. Sure some atheists have committed crimes, but the fact that they are atheists is purely coincidental. The same cannot be said of Crusades, the burning of witches, Muslim or Christian terrorists and so on.

[quote]molnes wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]molnes wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
It is man that is inherently bad, so that which man’s takes part in can be bad as well.

Atheism can be bad as well, again because man can be bad.

[/quote]
But nobody kills or commits suicide bombings in the name of atheism. In the name of religion however…[/quote]
No, instead they create whole societies of oppression, squalor and genocide.[/quote]
You obviously didn’t get my point. Some crimes are committed because of religion. No crime has been committed because of atheism. Sure some atheists have committed crimes, but the fact that they are atheists is purely coincidental. The same cannot be said of Crusades, the burning of witches, Muslim or Christian terrorists and so on.[/quote]

That’s a pretty far out there claim. Technically, positive atheism is the belief in a negative. This means that any act not done for god can really be said to be done out of atheism. Something done based on self is an atheistic action. If for instance I commit murder without considering god as a factor in my decision, I’ve just acted out of atheism.

I would also like to point out that many horrible acts have been committed in the name of religious suppression also. A country that kills Christians because they disbelieve in the christian god, are in a way, christian atheists.

But either way, you think an atheist has never even punched a believer for believing in god? Interesting. I’ve known some pretty angry and aggressive atheists.

It’s also important to note that actions as religiously oriented as the crusades are NOT necessarily done for religion. Throughout history religion has been used as a tool of political control (opiate of the masses). If the leader of a country wants to invade and conquer another country (for the worldly reasons of power or wealth), and uses religion to motivate the people to do what he wants, is that a religious act? Certainly it’s at least not entirely a religious act. The guys pulling the strings may not even care if there is a god.

Do you believe the Europeans slaughtered native Americans because they wanted to please god for christian reasons, or did they want power, land, and wealth, then thought up “religious” reasons to justify actions? I don’t think most people believe that their motivation was religious just because that’s the reason they claimed. How exactly do you label that a religious act then?

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Do you believe the Europeans slaughtered native Americans because they wanted to please god for christian reasons, or did they want power, land, and wealth, then thought up “religious” reasons to justify actions? I don’t think most people believe that their motivation was religious just because that’s the reason they claimed. How exactly do you label that a religious act then?[/quote]

That’s a very valid point. But, looking at things from that perspective, I highly doubt that the vast majority of “evil” acts (regardless of whether the person was religious or not) have been done for any other reasons than the lust for power, land, or wealth; or perhaps fear.

They sometimes are done in the “name of religion” though. And when they are, it’s usually because the religious leaders are somehow convincing them that it’s “God’s will” that they be done. Even if they are just twisting the words of that religion around to suit their goals.

Just look at the situation in Palestine/Isreal. Does anyone really believe that this conflict is about anything other than power, land or wealth? Yet these groups will adamantly argue that they are doing it because that’s what God wants them to do until their dying breath.

And therein lies the only potential problem with organized religion IMO; it encourages blind, unrelenting faith that it (and it’s religious leaders) alone has the monopoly on the true “will of God” and nature of the universe. In fact, many go so far as to actually discourage their followers from critical thought or questioning the doctrines of the faith at all.

Not saying that some atheists aren’t just as closed minded that whatever they put their faith in (be it science, chance, whatever) holds the “truth” and that other viewpoints are wrong. But I don’t really think that you can point to any doctrines, or actual encouragement on atheism’s part to it’s followers (if you want to call them that) to think this way.

Anyone who comes to their beliefs through honest self reflection, critical thought, and looking at numerous viewpoints has my respect; assuming that they don’t then try to force those beliefs on me or others of course.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Do you believe the Europeans slaughtered native Americans because they wanted to please god for christian reasons, or did they want power, land, and wealth, then thought up “religious” reasons to justify actions? I don’t think most people believe that their motivation was religious just because that’s the reason they claimed. How exactly do you label that a religious act then?[/quote]

That’s a very valid point. But, looking at things from that perspective, I highly doubt that the vast majority of “evil” acts (regardless of whether the person was religious or not) have been done for any other reasons than the lust for power, land, or wealth; or perhaps fear.

They sometimes are done in the “name of religion” though. And when they are, it’s usually because the religious leaders are somehow convincing them that it’s “God’s will” that they be done. Even if they are just twisting the words of that religion around to suit their goals.

Just look at the situation in Palestine/Isreal. Does anyone really believe that this conflict is about anything other than power, land or wealth? Yet these groups will adamantly argue that they are doing it because that’s what God wants them to do until their dying breath.

And therein lies the only potential problem with organized religion IMO; it encourages blind, unrelenting faith that it (and it’s religious leaders) alone has the monopoly on the true “will of God” and nature of the universe. In fact, many go so far as to actually discourage their followers from critical thought or questioning the doctrines of the faith at all.

Not saying that some atheists aren’t just as closed minded that whatever they put their faith in (be it science, chance, whatever) holds the “truth” and that other viewpoints are wrong. But I don’t really think that you can point to any doctrines, or actual encouragement on atheism’s part to it’s followers (if you want to call them that) to think this way.

Anyone who comes to their beliefs through honest self reflection, critical thought, and looking at numerous viewpoints has my respect; assuming that they don’t then try to force those beliefs on me or others of course.[/quote]

Ah, but isn’t faith in an organized religion separate from theism? (this is what I was getting at in my last post) I would say the 2 things are entirely independent. I know people both that believe in god without believing in religion and (though more rarely) believe in the merits of religion without believing in god (or even religions that have nothing to do with a theistic belief structure). I would therefore argue doing something in the name of a religion is separate from doing something in the name of theism.

If we are contrasting theism vs. atheism, you cannot really label acts of a religion one way or the other. You really can’t know what is at the heart of men, but I doubt most actions (especially evil selfish ones) have anything to do with their belief in god.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Do you believe the Europeans slaughtered native Americans because they wanted to please god for christian reasons, or did they want power, land, and wealth, then thought up “religious” reasons to justify actions? I don’t think most people believe that their motivation was religious just because that’s the reason they claimed. How exactly do you label that a religious act then?[/quote]

That’s a very valid point. But, looking at things from that perspective, I highly doubt that the vast majority of “evil” acts (regardless of whether the person was religious or not) have been done for any other reasons than the lust for power, land, or wealth; or perhaps fear.

They sometimes are done in the “name of religion” though. And when they are, it’s usually because the religious leaders are somehow convincing them that it’s “God’s will” that they be done. Even if they are just twisting the words of that religion around to suit their goals.

Just look at the situation in Palestine/Isreal. Does anyone really believe that this conflict is about anything other than power, land or wealth? Yet these groups will adamantly argue that they are doing it because that’s what God wants them to do until their dying breath.

And therein lies the only potential problem with organized religion IMO; it encourages blind, unrelenting faith that it (and it’s religious leaders) alone has the monopoly on the true “will of God” and nature of the universe. In fact, many go so far as to actually discourage their followers from critical thought or questioning the doctrines of the faith at all.

Not saying that some atheists aren’t just as closed minded that whatever they put their faith in (be it science, chance, whatever) holds the “truth” and that other viewpoints are wrong. But I don’t really think that you can point to any doctrines, or actual encouragement on atheism’s part to it’s followers (if you want to call them that) to think this way.

Anyone who comes to their beliefs through honest self reflection, critical thought, and looking at numerous viewpoints has my respect; assuming that they don’t then try to force those beliefs on me or others of course.[/quote]

Ah, but isn’t faith in an organized religion separate from theism? (this is what I was getting at in my last post) I would say the 2 things are entirely independent. I know people both that believe in god without believing in religion and (though more rarely) believe in the merits of religion without believing in god (or even religions that have nothing to do with a theistic belief structure). I would therefore argue doing something in the name of a religion is separate from doing something in the name of theism.

If we are contrasting theism vs. atheism, you cannot really label acts of a religion one way or the other. You really can’t know what is at the heart of men, but I doubt most actions (especially evil selfish ones) have anything to do with their belief in god.[/quote]

True and agreed.

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
<<< but I doubt most actions (especially evil selfish ones) have anything to do with their belief in god.[/quote]
I would further argue that in many cases such actions expose their actual disbelief in the very God they claim as the author of their actions. Religion by it’s very nature is and always been a quite ready tool for manipulation and abuse. Once you convince somebody you speak for God himself the debate is over and whatever comes out of your mouth next is to be obeyed without question. This has been done often throughout history and is still being done as I type this

This is why I always encourage going to the roots if you want to know what a religion or belief system is about. Beliefs concerning absolutes, if they’re worth believing at all are worth believing absolutely (and everybody has some). In that light anybody can claim anything in the name of anything, but that doesn’t necessarily establish that they legitimately represent whatever belief system they attempt to attach to themselves.

To use Christianity as an example. There are core doctrines found in the ancient Bible that every single Christian will agree define their belief system. They may disagree on quite a bit, but that foundation is universal. When they see somebody claiming Christianity, yet displaying themselves as denying that foundation they intuitively know that whatever that is it isn’t Christianity.

There will undoubtedly be some who read this and say to themselves: “wait a minute pal, we have thousands of flavors of Christianity, never mind all the other religions”. Yes, I realize that.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
<<< but I doubt most actions (especially evil selfish ones) have anything to do with their belief in god.[/quote]
I would further argue that in many cases such actions expose their actual disbelief in the very God they claim as the author of their actions. Religion by it’s very nature is and always been a quite ready tool for manipulation and abuse. Once you convince somebody you speak for God himself the debate is over and whatever comes out of your mouth next is to be obeyed without question. This has been done often throughout history and is still being done as I type this
[/quote]

Yup. People love to pick and choose the parts that suit their agendas and disregard the ones that don’t as well.

Good advice. The only problem that I see is that in just about every case and with just about every organized religion it’s tough to know what the original authors intended to convey, since the writings have been rewritten by hundreds of authors, translated into numerous languages, and in many cases either added to or omitted from the text.

Since no one is alive who was actually there to witness the events in these religious texts first hand, there is a lot of room for intepretation and speculation as to the original messages of the original authors.

True, which was pretty much the case with these Hutaree folks.