I’m not happy with my conventional deadlift today, but I just realized that it’s only my 7th time pulling conventional and I didn’t even try for years before that, plus I’m coming back from a back injury. It’s far from impressive, but maybe I’m being too hard on myself.
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How did you hurt your back the first time? Did you have any warning signs beforehand or did it just happen out of nowhere?
Which first time? I have hurt my back a few times in my life, not just lifting weights either.
This recent time it started with my hips hurting, mostly on the left side, after doing RDLs with a band around my waist. I didn’t think it was a back injury at the time and assumed it was just a crazy glute pump and soreness, but apparently if a disc bulge pushes on certain nerves it can cause pain in the glutes, among other places. That week my hips felt terrible warming up for deadlifts, I only got to 225lbs and cut it there, the week after was a deload and squats went OK but later in the week I tried to deadlift (I felt mostly OK at that point) and pulled 315 and my back totally cramped up. My back didn’t round or anything like that, hard to say what actually happened but things took a turn for the worse after that.
I tried pulling conventional because the next time I tried to deadlift (a few weeks later) sumo just didn’t feel right, in the past I had trouble setting up for conventional because of bad leverages and worse mobility but I had been working on hip and hamstring mobility and conventional actually felt better. I’m not married to one style or the other, I’m just trying to see what I can do conventional and if it sucks I will go back to sumo.
The thing with those RDLs with the band, the band kind of pulls your lower back into extension and also works your glutes harder. I was thinking about it and if your glutes are fatigued you can sort of extend your hips by rounding your back, I think I was doing something like that. Also, I think the band must increase shear force on your spine. In the past I did that exercise with some heavier weights, like maybe around 400 (can’t remember exactly) and it felt like it was hard on my back, I thought going lighter and doing more reps might be better but I fucked myself up and it was like 275 or something.
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Ah I was referring to the time that encouraged you to switch over to sumo.
That was almost 4 years ago, I used to pull conventional but with a slightly rounded back. I thought I could get away with it because it wasn’t causing me any issues. One day I did a couple singles around 500 (I don’t remember exact weight but I had pulled 230kg/507 in my first meet a few months before) and then went to do some down sets with 420lbs. First rep it felt like something exploded in my back. My back wasn’t more rounded than usual either, no form breakdown, it just decided that it had enough.
In retrospect, if I had worked on stretching my hamstrings more I would have been able to pull with a neutral spine, I used to do that stretch where you just bend over and touch your toes but that isn’t a great way to stretch hamstrings plus it stretches your lower back which is not good. Also I was doing a lot of volume and higher frequency, deadlifting twice a week and even 3x a one point, if you are going to pull with a rounded back you can’t overdo it because eventually you will wear it out. Plus the fact that I often deadlifted the day after heavy squatting meant that I was stiff and sore which made it harder to even attempt to set up with a neutral spine, all those things combined fucked me up in the end.
I had no intention of switching back to conventional but my hamstring flexibility is much better now and sumo felt weird on my hip and lower back the one time I tried it after getting injured again, also my back angle with conventional is pretty close to how it is with sumo so I don’t think it’s more risk for injury as long as I set up correctly. That seems to be an issue with doing multiple reps, I can set up fine for the first one but after that it’s a bit skeptical, and especially with something heavier on the bar. For that reason I’m thinking maybe I will pull for singles instead, it would be safer and also help me sort out my technique.
About stretching, a better way to stretch your hamstrings is laying on your back, opposite leg straight on the floor, loop a band around your ankle and pull it straight up. You can also so something like that against a wall, but both legs at the same time. You don’t want increased back flexibility.
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Yea this sounds a lot like me. I pull with a slightly rounded back and often pull twice a week. I just want to take some preventative measures here and I’m thinking about playing around with some “wide stance conventional” or even go full sumo after this meet. I remember back when I pulled sumo I had zero back issues but my hips tended to get beat up after a lot of volume. But if I can avoid a back explosion maybe it’s worth it.
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In my experience, I actually make better progress doing less deadlift volume and pulling only once a week. If anything you could do a few sets of RDLs on another day. If you’re beating your hips up then it’s probably too much, and if your hips feel like shit then you can’t expect to make much progress.
Some people who pull with a rounded back don’t pull heavy every week, or don’t pull from the floor each week. There is a guy who won the 120kg class at IPF worlds this year, if I remember correctly his name is Tony Cliffe, I was looking at his Instagram page a while back and he only pulls from the floor once every 6 weeks or so. The rest of the time it’s rack pulls with a neutral (or at least less rounded) back. Basically, you have to train hip extension and back strength while not pushing your spine beyond what it can take. Muscles recover faster than joints and connective tissue.
Interesting, on the other hand I found that my deadlift exploded when I switched to twice a week. Maybe that’s because I don’t pull heavy enough to be truly taxed from it? That’s an interesting idea with the heavy rdls. I’ve neglected these because I’m always pulling from the floor. Maybe I could switch out a day for that. Or maybe even spend a good 3 months pulling exclusively sumo/wide stance and rdls on the second day? Then maybe assess my conventional pull after that phase
Also, what are your thoughts on reverse hypers to strengthen the lower back? Do you think this would have helped prevent the injury you faced?
That could be it, but things don’t always work the same for everyone.
I don’t think sumo really carries over to conventional the same way that conventional carries over to sumo. I hear of people using trap bar deadlifts to build up their conventional, if that’s an option it would be worth trying.
Stuart McGill, who is the world’s leading specialist in spine biomechanics and has worked with many powerlifters, says that reverse hypers can actually be harmful. There are some people who benefit from them (just like there are some people who can pull with a severely rounded back and not get injured) but the repeated flexion can help to break down the intervertebral discs and cause an injury. So it’s a gamble.
I think if I didn’t do those RDLs with a band I wouldn’t have gotten injured.
Monday, September 9 - Main bench day
Bench press
350x3 - Should have had 4 but I fucked it up, the first 3 went up fast and after the 3rd rep in my head I was like “wow, this is easy, big PR!” then proceeded to get stuck 3-4 inches from lockout on the next rep. I think I would have got it if I had stayed focused rather than acting like the next rep was already done when it hadn’t even started. The 3rd rep looked like RPE 8, definitely should have had 4 but shit happens
Down set: 315x7
Floor press
315x6, 5 - the first set was 100% all-out effort, I got stuck on the last rep and the thought of being stuck under the bar popped into my mind, that gave me the motivation to finish it. If I could grind like that on bench I would have had 350x5.
Not sure how I managed 5 on the 2nd set, wasn’t as hard as the 1st but definitely couldn’t do another rep.
High incline
255x5, 4 - My pressing muscles were tired by this point, not up to par
Chin ups - close neutral grip
bw+25x12, 8, 7- These feel real strong, especially on the 1st set.
I’m disappointed about missing that 4th rep but it should have been there and anyway the way the first 3 moved I can see that my strength is definitely moving up. Seems like fairly low volume and pushing sets hard is the way to go for bench, for me at least.
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Tuesday, September 10 - Main squat day
Squat
460x2 - A third rep was definitely there, and maybe even a 4th, but to be honest I think I lack the confidence to grind out anything even slightly heavy at the moment. When there’s any doubt about another rep it’s probably a bad idea. The weight feels heavy on my back (even though I have squatted more than 100lbs over this) and I haven’t really strained on any squats or deadlifts in a while, I just need to keep doing what I’m doing and I should be OK. Next week I want 465x3.
405x3x3 - A while back I was thinking that I wasn’t really getting anything out of the lighter submax work, and leading up to my last meet I was doing some doubles and triples around 80-85% and that seemed to give some results so I though I would change things up slightly. Realistically, right now my max in sleeves would be in the low 500’s (when I squatted 480 in a meet my heaviest double was 435, I’m not great at reps) so this is maybe a little below 80%. These went well, my technique (on the top set as well) looks decent again, I just need to get stronger.
Pause squat
345x6x2 sets
Split stance RDL
165x8x3
So overall this was decent, still far from good but its a step in the right direction. Looking at what other guy my size are lifting, I should be squatting 600+ in sleeves, I have a way to go.
No mention if back pain. Big win right there. You’ll be back in no time. For sure all that McGill big three will help your lifts somehow
It’s not just about coming back, I need to be way ahead of where I was before. That’s the problem. It’s an uphill battle.
Oh don’t be too hard on yourself! That just makes the view better from the top!
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Thursday, September 12 - 2nd bench day
Bench press
370x1 - pretty much effortless, or so it seemed. I’m going to keep going with these singles as a warm up for slingshot bench and see where it goes.
Slingshot bench
415x4 - barely finished the last rep. The good thing here is that the sticking point is the same as my comp. bench so there should be some good carryover. At least that’s what I’m counting on.
375x8
Military press
225x6, 5
JM press
220x10, 8, 7
Underhand band pull apart
super mini x26, 17, 11
Barbell curl
80x18, 14, 11
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How’s things going big man? It looks like you’re gonna crack 405 next time you have a go
Bench looks like it’s back on track and making some progress. I’m not going for any PR singles any time soon, just adding 5lbs to my last raw warmup for slingshot bench and if I get to 405 or more then so be it.
Squat feels alright, just weak. Deadlift is another story.
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Friday, September 13 - Light squat/heavy deadlift day
Squat
315x2x6 - 45 sec. rest - Feels faster every week, technique seems to be good, can’t complain here but it’s also light as fuck.
Deadlift - Conventional
The plan was 525 for an easy single then some lighter singles for some volume. Singles because I have a hard time getting back into position for multiple reps. It didn’t workout like that though. For whatever reason, it just seemed that my warmups didn’t feel good, and I’m not tired or anything and my light squats went well before this. I pulled 485 for my last warmup, it went up easy. Then went for 525 and I felt my back lose tension just under my knees, rather than keep pulling I got nervous and dumped it on the floor. Looking at the video my upper back kind of slumped forward, it could have to do with back weakness but I also feel like I’m not able to really get tight like I should with conventional. I feel like I can really lock my back into place on squats (and sumo in the past) but not conventional.
So I thought about it for a couple minutes, should I try again? If I get it on the 2nd try then what? It’s still way below what I was pulling sumo and doesn’t feel good, and in any case I have been thinking about when and if I should switch back to sumo so that’s what I did.
I only realize now it’s Friday the 13th, maybe that has something to do with it. At least I didn’t break my back.
Sumo
Singles: 315-365-405-455-505 - I put straps on for the last one because my left hand started bleeding a bit, not sure if it’s a torn callus or the skin cracked but hook grip conventional definitely isn’t good for your skin. 505 was easy, maybe RPE 7 or so. I thought about adding another 30lbs or so but I decided there is no point, it’s my first time pulling sumo in 2 1/2 months.
455x5, 5 - I figured I should do a bit of volume, these were maybe RPE 8. The 2nd set felt better in terms of technique, on the first one my hips were getting higher and higher on each set. This is nothing exciting here, but it’s a starting point. I’m still debating what exactly I’m going to do next week, but it won’t be singles for sure.
Barbell row
295x10x3
This felt like a weird day, I didn’t go into this expecting to pull sumo at all and I thought 525 would be easy (510x2 was easy last week and would have done more reps if I could get in proper position). I guess the time for conventional is over, time to get back to sumo once again.
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Monday, September 16 - Main bench day
Bench press
355x3 - I would have gone for 4 but it wasn’t going to happen, 3rd rep was a bit slow.
320x6 - I probably should have pushed for a 7th rep but I was feeling lazy I guess
Floor press
320x5, 5 - I didn’t plan to go for 6 reps because I barely got 315x6 last week but this was alright
High incline
260x4 - Maybe another rep, maybe not. This angle still feels awkward.
235x7
Chin ups - close neutral grip
bw+30x11, 8, 6
I don’t really feel so energetic today, I think maybe next week I should take a deload. This workout was OK still but no PRs or anything.
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What made you decide to do high incline?