Let the “mentally ill” have all the guns they can obtain, but punish them just like anybody else.[/quote]
What about their victims? We should do more to prevent these things from happening. [/quote]
An armed society is a polite society. If less people were “victims”, then we would have less crime. Being a hard target is the best defense against ANY kind of attack (personal, business, criminal, etc…)[/quote]
A mentally ill man in my community recently barricaded himself in his apartment and began shooting it out with his imaginary friends until a tactical team arrived to intervene. Thankfully he lived alone and was taken into custody without incident, so no one was harmed.
If I were this guy’s neighbour I would take more comfort in the fact that this guy’s guns were seized than in my ability to return fire next time he goes off his meds or if he were “punished just like anybody else” after the fact. If someone is incapable of irrational thought, they will not be polite because society is armed or restrain themselves for fear of punishment.
They may very well get shot if and when they go off the rails, thus making recurrence less likely, but is this the most desireable outcome? In Mr. Brinsley’s case he took his own life after shooting his girlfriend and the 2 officers, so I suppose it’s a moot point.
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
This is what I fear: a division created between the police and certain communities where the police start to take a “hands off” approach. And when they are called, the calls get slow-walked, diverted, held or are given poor service due to the mutual distrust. I’ve already heard talks about this in certain circles.
If we are so evil, fuck it. Police yourselfs. [/quote]
This is a legitimate fear. Can you imagine what NYC would look like after say 30 days if the patrol division of NYPD simply stopped going to calls? Mad Max anyone…
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
This is what I fear: a division created between the police and certain communities where the police start to take a “hands off” approach. And when they are called, the calls get slow-walked, diverted, held or are given poor service due to the mutual distrust. I’ve already heard talks about this in certain circles.
If we are so evil, fuck it. Police yourselfs. [/quote]
This is a legitimate fear. Can you imagine what NYC would look like after say 30 days if the patrol division of NYPD simply stopped going to calls? Mad Max anyone…[/quote]
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
This is what I fear: a division created between the police and certain communities where the police start to take a “hands off” approach. And when they are called, the calls get slow-walked, diverted, held or are given poor service due to the mutual distrust. I’ve already heard talks about this in certain circles.
If we are so evil, fuck it. Police yourselfs. [/quote]
This is a legitimate fear. Can you imagine what NYC would look like after say 30 days if the patrol division of NYPD simply stopped going to calls? Mad Max anyone…[/quote]
Toronto Police has initiated policy that makes patrol officers issue what is essentially a transaction receipt if the police ask a person for ID. The result? Street Check submissions have dropped by 95%. The cops aren’t talking to people unless a crime is blatantly being committed. No contact, no complaint. I am curious to see how this will influence crime in the city.
[quote]batman730 wrote:
This is a legitimate fear. Can you imagine what NYC would look like after say 30 days if the patrol division of NYPD simply stopped going to calls? Mad Max anyone…[/quote]
Most areas would look about the same as they do now. Some areas, those housing a huge number of non-taxpayers/shareholders, would look like third world countries, as they should. Let the taxpayers, and the force they have paid for, defend themselves from the moochers.
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
This is what I fear: a division created between the police and certain communities where the police start to take a “hands off” approach. And when they are called, the calls get slow-walked, diverted, held or are given poor service due to the mutual distrust. I’ve already heard talks about this in certain circles.
If we are so evil, fuck it. Police yourselfs. [/quote]
This is a legitimate fear. Can you imagine what NYC would look like after say 30 days if the patrol division of NYPD simply stopped going to calls? Mad Max anyone…[/quote]
Toronto Police has initiated policy that makes patrol officers issue what is essentially a transaction receipt if the police ask a person for ID. The result? Street Check submissions have dropped by 95%. The cops aren’t talking to people unless a crime is blatantly being committed. No contact, no complaint. I am curious to see how this will influence crime in the city. [/quote]
Bravo, Toronto. I bet it’s nice for the sane Toronto officers to not have to hear the dumbasses on the radio, running the name of every person they see…ALL NIGHT LONG.
[quote]batman730 wrote:
This is a legitimate fear. Can you imagine what NYC would look like after say 30 days if the patrol division of NYPD simply stopped going to calls? Mad Max anyone…[/quote]
Most areas would look about the same as they do now. Some areas, those housing a huge number of non-taxpayers/shareholders, would look like third world countries, as they should. Let the taxpayers, and the force they have paid for, defend themselves from the moochers. [/quote]
If you honestly believe that in the absence of a functioning police force most areas would look essentially the same as the do now, I really don’t know what to tell you. I believe you are very much mistaken. I know of no large scale civilization in history that has operated without some force to keep the peace and preserve civil order. Conversely, virtually every godforsaken shithole in the world has in common the lack of functional law enforcement.
You protect yours, I’ve got mine doesn’t work when you’ve got any kind of population density.
[quote]batman730 wrote:
This is a legitimate fear. Can you imagine what NYC would look like after say 30 days if the patrol division of NYPD simply stopped going to calls? Mad Max anyone…[/quote]
Most areas would look about the same as they do now. Some areas, those housing a huge number of non-taxpayers/shareholders, would look like third world countries, as they should. Let the taxpayers, and the force they have paid for, defend themselves from the moochers. [/quote]
You can’t paint everyone that lives in the projects with a broad brush. What about all the young kids? And they are not all criminals and there are many victims of crimes. This is what has happened in my city: due to safety, officers double up on most calls. This greatly reduces the amount of calls we can respond to thus lowering service.
So there is a cause and effect here.
[quote]batman730 wrote:
This is a legitimate fear. Can you imagine what NYC would look like after say 30 days if the patrol division of NYPD simply stopped going to calls? Mad Max anyone…[/quote]
Most areas would look about the same as they do now. Some areas, those housing a huge number of non-taxpayers/shareholders, would look like third world countries, as they should. Let the taxpayers, and the force they have paid for, defend themselves from the moochers. [/quote]
If you honestly believe that in the absence of a functioning police force most areas would look essentially the same as the do now, I really don’t know what to tell you. I believe you are very much mistaken. I know of no large scale civilization in history that has operated without some force to keep the peace and preserve civil order. Conversely, virtually every godforsaken shithole in the world has in common the lack of functional law enforcement.
You protect yours, I’ve got mine doesn’t work when you’ve got any kind of population density.[/quote]
That would be an excellent counterpoint if I believed that those intelligent and wealthy enough to own a portion of the community would not realize that. The VAST MAJORITY of police calls for service are in areas where there are virtually(and that is being nice) no taxpayers.
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
You can’t paint everyone that lives in the projects with a broad brush.[/quote]
-The only brush I paint them with is the non-taxpayer brush, and it is an accurate brush.
-What about them?
-I would never make that claim.
-No doubt.
-I don’t know what city you’re in, but when people call for ridiculous reasons and the police have to respond to those ridiculous calls as if they were legitimate, response times to real calls(which are few and far between) will obviously suffer.
[quote]batman730 wrote:
This is a legitimate fear. Can you imagine what NYC would look like after say 30 days if the patrol division of NYPD simply stopped going to calls? Mad Max anyone…[/quote]
Most areas would look about the same as they do now. Some areas, those housing a huge number of non-taxpayers/shareholders, would look like third world countries, as they should. Let the taxpayers, and the force they have paid for, defend themselves from the moochers. [/quote]
If you honestly believe that in the absence of a functioning police force most areas would look essentially the same as the do now, I really don’t know what to tell you. I believe you are very much mistaken. I know of no large scale civilization in history that has operated without some force to keep the peace and preserve civil order. Conversely, virtually every godforsaken shithole in the world has in common the lack of functional law enforcement.
You protect yours, I’ve got mine doesn’t work when you’ve got any kind of population density.[/quote]
That would be an excellent counterpoint if I believed that those intelligent and wealthy enough to own a portion of the community would not realize that. The VAST MAJORITY of police calls for service are in areas where there are virtually(and that is being nice) no taxpayers. [/quote]
So, to be clear, you’re not proposing that it would have minimal impact if police stopped attending calls altogether, just if they stopped attending calls in certain areas?
Let’s call a spade a spade…it IS true. Officers in some areas(the publicly funded areas) of a city can fill their days with calls, while officers in other areas(the areas with large numbers of working citizens) have to find other things to do.
[quote]batman730 wrote:
So, to be clear, you’re not proposing that it would have minimal impact if police stopped attending calls altogether, just if they stopped attending calls in certain areas?[/quote]
I’m proposing that those who pay for police service would still be able to pay for police service, even if the city police department decided not to provide the service.
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
I think its great that cops can debate anarchists without involving clubs and molotov cocktails. We’ve come a long way. [/quote]
This is a debate between peers. Read into that what you may.
[quote]batman730 wrote:
So, to be clear, you’re not proposing that it would have minimal impact if police stopped attending calls altogether, just if they stopped attending calls in certain areas?[/quote]
I’m proposing that those who pay for police service would still be able to pay for police service, even if the city police department decided not to provide the service.[/quote]
Ah, so it’s more of a privatization thing. What level of private security protection do you imagine the average, private, middle class taxpayer can afford?
[quote]batman730 wrote:
Ah, so it’s more of a privatization thing. What level of private security protection do you imagine the average, private, middle class taxpayer can afford? [/quote]
I don’t know. What level of private security protection do you imagine that the average project-dwelling welfare recipient can afford? How much time do police officers spend in areas populated by average middle-class taxpayers? How much time do police officers spend in areas populated by welfare recipients? If the wealthy are willing to subsidize those who are a massive drain on society now, how much more willing do you think the wealthy would be to help the middle class(AKA their employees)?
To expand, Nick: I am a middle class professional. I pay taxes. I live in an area that generates a somewhat disproportionate number of calls for service. Property values in my area dictate that I cannot relocate to a “better” neighbourhood and I am unable to afford private security.
Do I form a neighbourhood association and police my own area if police should decide to stop taking calls to my location? Is this really a preferable or even practically sustainable arrangement. I mean, I work all day and I generally sleep at night. Even if I went armed 24/7, who protects mine in my absence?
Edit: this doesn’t directly address your above post. That wasn’t up as I typed this.
[quote]batman730 wrote:
To expand, Nick: I am a middle class professional. I pay taxes. I live in an area that generates a somewhat disproportionate number of calls for service.[/quote]
-I honestly can’t think of a middle class neighborhood that generates a disproportionate number of calls for service.
-Did you happen to elect to live in this neighborhood, believing that property values would go up and you could make a nice profit?
