[quote]NickViar wrote:
Let the “mentally ill” have all the guns they can obtain, but punish them just like anybody else.[/quote]
What about their victims? We should do more to prevent these things from happening.
[quote]Will207 wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
Let the “mentally ill” have all the guns they can obtain, but punish them just like anybody else.[/quote]
What about their victims? We should do more to prevent these things from happening. [/quote]
What “things?” The same crimes that non-“mentally ill” people commit all the time? What is done for the victim of any crime?
One possible solution would be to allow EVERYONE to defend himself and his property with no more fear of legal repercussions than a police officer has when he defends himself.
A police officer’s job can only justly be REACTIVE. The proactive-policing push is mere brainwashing, aimed at convincing genuinely decent people that they can and should act like criminals when in uniform.
For the first time evar, I’m going to agree with what AC wrote up there :o)
My experience with cops has been quite different than ACs in that I’ve been mostly treated with respect and kindness and even generosity by police where anecdotes from male acquaintances are not getting the same treatment. That said, I have never been combatant or argumentative with cops and generally am nice. Still, when dealing with youths and especially ones who are generally interacting with police, there will be attitudes. Police need to deal with that and learn how to manage these people rather than resort to force immediately. It is in their own best interest that they are not despised and hated the way they currently are. It’s in their own best interest that they engage in force as little as possible because I would hazard a guess that it where of the danger lies for police. They need to act responsibly so the cops that deal with the smartass of the day isn’t activating fight or flight because he doesn’t want to get another beating for worse.
I’ve encountered some really good cops. Men and women who really care about doing good and are trying. I know they often are in a shitty system that makes it hard for them to do a good job and I can see how that can turn a good cop into one that loses faith and goes with the flow. I’d hate to see any of these folks get hurt because their fellow cops pulled out the yellow pages and did a number on the Native guy the last time they picked him up and left him 20km out of town in the middle of winter and now they have to deal with Officer actually friendly. Yes that actually happens. Cops drive drunk guys out of fucking town in the middle of dangerously cold weather and leave them to walk to wherever they need to get to. And they have frozen to death.
My ex was one of those guys who didn’t know how to stfu when dealing with cops and he’s had quite a few beatings. IMO he deserved them for being stupid and he was an asshole but definitely not legally, certainly not right and it didn’t do anyone any favours as he turned into a harder and harder prick for anyone to handle.
I don’t know about you, but if I’m a 20 year old guy who is already not giving a shit about the world, and you do that shit to my brother or someone I know or someone I can relate to, I’m going to be the biggest prick I can when your fellow cop tries to get me to cooperate and that might get both of us killed.
The whole dialogue around this is incredibly frustrating to watch. Argue all you want about the choke and the heart attack and it was fatty who did it to himself, but like AC said the video is right there for anyone to see and in no universe is that right. There are people who’ve been seeing this like this for a long time (like AC) and it’s not hard to imagine the anger they feel and the danger this poses to police.
I keep hearing about walking a cops shoes before judging and that also goes both ways. Walk in the shoes of someone who has seen the yellow pages against his ribs one too many times and it becomes obvious that situations need to be resolved and extinguished rather than escalated.
I’m really surprised I haven’t been hearing this argument from the point of police safety actually. It seems like common sense to me.
Angry Chicken and DebraD for the absolute WIN!
I agree wholeheartedly with both of you. Where AC’s post comes quite obviously from a long series of very unpleasant personal experiences it is quite understandable that he’s going to be a helluva lot more animated—dare I say pissed off—than many other people, but that should not be an excuse for anyone to ignore the very real and very good points he makes on this topic. Sorry it ruffles your feathers folks, sometimes people need a good rant to blow off steam. Debra is absolutely dead on too.
I’ve never been arrested. Gotten a few speeding tickets but other than that no problems. HOWEVER, I have been directly the victim of police mistreatment a number of times. And I’ll tell you what, if the last guy hadn’t been wearing a badge and a gun I’d have beaten the piss out of him, broken his arms, and called it self defense. And you know why? Because I was directly and physically threatened for doing nothing. I was polite. I was non-threatening other than the fact I’m a big guy. I called him sir. I asked him a question. I didn’t make ANY STATEMENTS to him, I just asked him a question. His very first response was to threaten me physically with mace and his tazer. He didn’t even say anything to me or give me a “no, you can’t man.”
I take being threatened very seriously. And I fucking hate bullies. I’ve spent almost my whole life fighting against them in one way or other–first as being the nerd that was bullied, now as being the protector of people who can’t fight for themselves or those being picked on, or abused.
If that last cop hadn’t had a badge, I would have been completely acquitted of any charges…if I was even brought up (possibly not given I was responding to a perceived threat to my safety). But because that asshole had his weapons out on me, I told him very calmly to “lower the fucking dose of steroids you fucking cunt” and walked away.
I shouldn’t have said that obviously. And that’s the first time I’ve EVER talked back to a cop, even the other run-ins of disrespect. But I’ll tell you what man, I hate being treated like subhuman shit. And from a purely survivalist standpoint, that’s a really shitty way to go about your job–every bouncer I’ve ever talked to knows that there are 3 primary ways to make your job easier beyond the basic “situational awareness” rules: 1) Talk to people like human beings and equals whenever possible (NOT whenever you are in a good mood…whenever POSSIBLE) 2) SMILE when you can 3) Never escalate unnecessarily. As soon as you escalate people stop listening, and become obstinate. This principle applies to sober people as well, it’s just easier to see it operate on drunks.
There’s no systemic accountability for cops, and there’s a shit psych screening in many departments due to shortages…and that’s bullshit.
The lack of accountability with respect to police is just a glimpse of the much larger lack of accountability in government as a whole. They insulate themselves from any wrong-doing.
We had a prosecutor here in the late 80s or early 90s iirc, and he basically sent a bunch of people to jail for murder by withholding evidence that would have enabled them to be found not guilty (which some of them were, and have been exonerated). Point being, the prosecutor in question doesn’t face any repercussions, so obviously he doesn’t give a shit. And if he did face repercussions, how would he have a conflict-of-interest-free trial? These people all march to the same tune. It’s just gotten to be too fucked up for anyone to ever be held accountable.
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
There’s no systemic accountability for cops, and there’s a shit psych screening in many departments due to shortages…and that’s bullshit. [/quote]
This is a big one. Folks, you get what you pay for. If you pay your police like shit, you get shitty police.
I agree with and can empathize with most of what you said. No one likes to be bullied, especially by a person of authority. I’ve been treated this way by supervisors, doctors, and other powers that be. It can be frustrating to say the least.
debraD, do you work with FN kids in Canada?
[quote]Will207 wrote:
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
There’s no systemic accountability for cops, and there’s a shit psych screening in many departments due to shortages…and that’s bullshit. [/quote]
This is a big one. Folks, you get what you pay for. If you pay your police like shit, you get shitty police.
I agree with and can empathize with most of what you said. No one likes to be bullied, especially by a person of authority. I’ve been treated this way by supervisors, doctors, and other powers that be. It can be frustrating to say the least.
debraD, do you work with FN kids in Canada?
[/quote]
I can agree with you on payscale, but I think these problems are somewhat independent issues. You can pay people really well, but that doesn’t mean they have less incentive to bully when they know they are protected from repercussions to a large degree. You just get richer bullies.
Higher pay may make police work better options for more talented and more balanced people, which is good, but without a systemic reboot you’re just getting the same problem. It doesn’t matter if you’re a professor or a cop, if you know you can get away with something without repercussions you start swinging your weight around. That might be politically (manipulating the career possibilities of young grad students as ransom…it happens a lot) or physically.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Like it or not and if it’s “Politically correct” to talk about it or not, the police ALL OVER the country abuse their power. From New York to LA and everything in between. How often are they brought to justice? How many BAD COPS go to PRISON? Sure, some of them are reprimanded or get fired, but how many actually receive the JUSTICE they would get from their actions if they were NOT police?
There are THOUSANDS of DOCUMENTED incidents of police abusing their power, how many indictments?
Did any of the police who burned that baby’s face off get in trouble? Nope…
THEY ARE NOT GODS!!! There HAS to be accountability!!!
[/quote]
???
Unfortunately, over the past several years we have had several officers fired and indicted for crimes. One is in the federal pen. I agree with every conviction too. They are a blight on our profession.
Too bad there is not a PM function. I would give you specifics. In my experience, in my department, if you commit a crime, you get treated like everyone else.
And F the media for trying to use mental illness as a scapegoat. Based on the judge asking him during court if he’s ever seen a psychologist or s psychiatrist and he says yes? Really? Do they not know these are standard questions AND standard answers!! Every person that has been arrested multiple times for his offenses gets diverted to mental health court!! They all do!! This is nuts.
Also, has anyone here done a ride-along in an inner city ghetto? What about a walk through in the housing projects?? I don’t want to hear from people doing a ride-along in the suburbs doing traffic stops. I’m taking about working the damn street in the high crime neighborhoods. Anyone? Genuinely curious.
My point is, there are aspects of the job that are far different than a Norman Rockwell painting my suggest. In the toughest places- poverty striken communities with a high percentage of minoritied- policing is tough. Want me to explain? No problem… Take a ride with one of us where the real work is done. Oh, and bring a weapon. You may need it.
I know it’s hard to believe, but sometimes the bad guys play offense.
EDITED
Question: how come the protesters only mention Rice, Brown, Garner and Martin, but never, ever mention the homeless man from New Mexico with the knife who was shot by police, or Howe, who was shot in Hollywood…Both victims are white.
I attended a Blacks Lives Matter march the other day and as a white man, I think it was akin to a black Klan Rally. When the black female ex-police officer stepped to the mic, I wondered what the hell she was going to say. Her words were eloquent because she chided the protesters for being anti cop. It was excellent. She actually said what SHOULD be said and I’m glad I was there to hear it. She said not only Black lives matter, but ALL lives matter, even cops who pay a heavy price for protecting the very people who are calling for attacks on them.
This is what I fear: a division created between the police and certain communities where the police start to take a “hands off” approach. And when they are called, the calls get slow-walked, diverted, held or are given poor service due to the mutual distrust. I’ve already heard talks about this in certain circles.
If we are so evil, fuck it. Police yourselfs.
Yes Brett, I was saying this same thing myself.
Already this attitude has created so-called food desserts, where the white man has oppressed the people and will not build stores or stock existing stores with adequate healthy food…but no one wants to say the truth, that no store owner in their right mind would open one in area where it is constantly robbed and it’s employees are threatened with violence or killed and food delivery people are likewise robbed or killed so they won’t deliver in certain areas.
Same could possibly be said of police protection in the future…
Sorry for the delay in replying - holidays plus an emergency call, I didn’t get home until after midnight and I had to sleep.
[quote]Will207 wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[/quote]
I’m not going to create a wall of text. I’ll address your post in point form.
Oh, you believe violent, mentally unstable people should have the right to possess and carry firearms? Interesting. What about the two people who were killed and the woman who was shot? What about their rights?
[/quote]I believe that the right to bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED[quote]
So, how do we deal with violent mentally ill people? Make them take their meds? I’ve worked in that field and it’s a revolving door. They come in, get their meds, leave, feel good for a while, stop taking their pills, and the cycle starts all over again. What do you suggest we do to help the mentally ill?
[/quote]That’s a topic worthy of it’s own thread, but I’ll stab at a few suggestions: 1)Early intervention. 2)Therapy BEFORE incarceration. 3)Options with consequences. e.g. You fucked up because you need to be on XYZ meds. You have ONE chance. If you choose NOT to take your meds, then you will go to prison. Mental health is hard. I had to deal with it for years with one family member in particular (cousin on my mother’s side). My aunt enabled the shit out of him and coddled him and didn’t give him consequences. He ended up putting a hatched through the wall right next to her face and burning her house down… There are no easy answers for mental health issues. But, having been incarcerated for 4 years, PRISON is NOT an appropriate place to “store them”. Prison is dangerous enough already, that just adds fuel to the fire (and most of them end of being severely victimized while they are there)[quote]
I refer to him as a violent criminal because he had a litany of charges ranging from obstructing police, theft, and robbery among other things. His own mother was afraid of him.
[/quote]My aunt was afraid of my cousin. But he was not a violent criminal. He was schizophrenic. I don’t know for sure what this man was. But before I start labeling him, I’m going to wait for facts. He MAY very well be a violent piece of shit. Or he may be off his meds and stirred up by all of the race baiting propaganda/police hate being spewed forth by the MEDIA.[quote]
If you read my post, you would see that I wrote checking your babysitter’s background IS an abuse of power and it’s written in the agreement that I signed prior to be given access to that particular system. [/quote]If you SIGNED a form promising to adhere to a certain set of ethical behavior, then you should ADHERE to that behavior. I’ve signed forms that limit MY behavior with MY job. I can’t openly state where I work, or who my customer is. I can’t bring cell phones or any media storage device onto the premises. I agreed to follow the rules to work here. [quote]
It’s an administrative issue, not a criminal one . What would you be arrested for if you used a similar system for purposes it wasn’t intended for? What is the crime?
[/quote]You, as a police officer, have an entire system and network in place to obtain just about any information on anybody. You can activate that system on a whim - just like the example you give about checking your baby sitter. But that’s a slipper slope. First it’s your baby sitter. Then it’s your sister’s boyfriend. Then it’s the guy that cut you off in traffic or your wife’s co-workers boyfriend who you “KNOW” is guilty of beating her… If I want information on someone, I have to hire a private investigator, or PAY for a service to find that information. It’s not at my fingertips. And as a PUBLIC SERVANT being paid to PROTECT me and SERVE me, I would rather you used the departmental resources at your disposal (that are paid for with MY tax dollars) on fighting crime, NOT checking the background of people in YOUR PERSONAL LIFE. That’s kinda creepy anyway.[quote]
If someone is hurt while I’m arresting them, my bosses do not buy me a donut. Instead, I am informed that I’m under investigation for doing my job and then I’m interviewed by the Professional Standards section. If I’m not found criminally responsible for my actions, I may face administrative sanctions.
[/quote]Welcome to being a professional. If I close the wrong switch during a transfer to maintenance bypass, then I will be suspended, investigated and lose MY job… We are both trained professionals. Every single day at MY job, I can be asked to transfer loads of thousands of amps of electricity that has the potential to blow up in my face and kill me. I’ve had both my elbows blown out, been burned and temporarily blinded through work accidents and human error during my career. You do not have the monopoly on “dangerous” work or little to no room for error when asked to perform critical functions of your job. Don’t complain about it, just be excellent… If you can’t handle the heat, get the fuck outta the kitchen.[quote]
As for free donuts, why do you care what a private business does with it’s products? If they choose to give certain people coffee and donuts, why do you care? I suppose you have a problem with business’ offering discounts to military personnel and vets too, right?
[/quote]
I will admit that the doughnut comment was baiting and inappropriate, and I apologize for that. I get a little hot headed sometimes and my fingers do the talking. I am trying to have a civil discussion with you and I will refrain from those kind of comments in the future.
For the record, if I were a doughnut shop in a bad neighborhood, I’d give the police free doughnuts too so that they would frequent my shop and I’d be less likely to be robbed. It was a dumb comment.
[quote]Will207 wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
Let the “mentally ill” have all the guns they can obtain, but punish them just like anybody else.[/quote]
What about their victims? We should do more to prevent these things from happening. [/quote]
An armed society is a polite society. If less people were “victims”, then we would have less crime. Being a hard target is the best defense against ANY kind of attack (personal, business, criminal, etc…)
[quote]debraD wrote:
For the first time evar, I’m going to agree with what AC wrote up there :o)
[/quote]
I just KNEW I’d win you over one day!!! If I couldn’t baffle you with my bullshit, I’d just have to dazzle you with my brilliance! LMAO
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Like it or not and if it’s “Politically correct” to talk about it or not, the police ALL OVER the country abuse their power. From New York to LA and everything in between. How often are they brought to justice? How many BAD COPS go to PRISON? Sure, some of them are reprimanded or get fired, but how many actually receive the JUSTICE they would get from their actions if they were NOT police?
There are THOUSANDS of DOCUMENTED incidents of police abusing their power, how many indictments?
Did any of the police who burned that baby’s face off get in trouble? Nope…
THEY ARE NOT GODS!!! There HAS to be accountability!!!
[/quote]
???
Unfortunately, over the past several years we have had several officers fired and indicted for crimes. One is in the federal pen. I agree with every conviction too. They are a blight on our profession.
Too bad there is not a PM function. I would give you specifics. In my experience, in my department, if you commit a crime, you get treated like everyone else.
[/quote]
Brett, you and I have had many a productive discussion before. I KNOW you are one of the good guys, and I have nothing but positive wishes for you and yours - I mean that. It also seems that you have a pretty decent department that you are working for. I’m sure your community is grateful for that. But if your department is on one end of the “bell curve”, what is do be done about the departments/officers that are on the OTHER end?
I don’t know what the numbers are. I don’t have that data. I DO know that for something like 20 years, it was “common knowledge” that Prince Georges county (in Maryland) cops were corrupt and violent. I experienced that first hand. I live in Virginia now, so I don’t really follow local MD politics anymore - the state has just gone too liberal for me, despite the recent election. But for TWENTY years that I lived there and was “aware”, an entire county had a known reputation for corruption and brutality… I don’t know what it’s like now, I won’t set foot in PG county for any reason and I won’t allow my family to go there.
Why was that allowed to persist? Where were the checks and balances? How was that kind of systemic abuse and subsequent cover up tolerated for so long? What can communities that are systematically being stepped on do about it?
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
I don’t know what the numbers are. I don’t have that data. I DO know that for something like 20 years, it was “common knowledge” that Prince Georges county (in Maryland) cops were corrupt and violent. [/quote]
PG county has had a corrupt, violent force for as long as I can remember. I grew up in Silver Spring, so not right in their wheelhouse but close enough that I was in PG county quite a bit growing up. I remember radio dj’s in the 70’s joking about people being stripped searched in PG county for jaywalking and parking violations and it wasn’t much of an exaggeration. The entire department was the scope of a federal investigation several years ago.
This was fine example of PG county police work or Sheriffs work in this case. They ended up shooting 2 Labrador retrievers, one of which was running AWAY from them. The sheriffs department admitted they got the wrong house but "An internal sheriff’s department investigation found no wrongdoing by deputies. Then-Sheriff Michael A. Jackson said his deputies “did their jobs to the fullest extent of their abilities.”
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Like it or not and if it’s “Politically correct” to talk about it or not, the police ALL OVER the country abuse their power. From New York to LA and everything in between. How often are they brought to justice? How many BAD COPS go to PRISON? Sure, some of them are reprimanded or get fired, but how many actually receive the JUSTICE they would get from their actions if they were NOT police?
There are THOUSANDS of DOCUMENTED incidents of police abusing their power, how many indictments?
Did any of the police who burned that baby’s face off get in trouble? Nope…
THEY ARE NOT GODS!!! There HAS to be accountability!!!
[/quote]
???
Unfortunately, over the past several years we have had several officers fired and indicted for crimes. One is in the federal pen. I agree with every conviction too. They are a blight on our profession.
Too bad there is not a PM function. I would give you specifics. In my experience, in my department, if you commit a crime, you get treated like everyone else.
[/quote]
Brett, you and I have had many a productive discussion before. I KNOW you are one of the good guys, and I have nothing but positive wishes for you and yours - I mean that. It also seems that you have a pretty decent department that you are working for. I’m sure your community is grateful for that. But if your department is on one end of the “bell curve”, what is do be done about the departments/officers that are on the OTHER end?
I don’t know what the numbers are. I don’t have that data. I DO know that for something like 20 years, it was “common knowledge” that Prince Georges county (in Maryland) cops were corrupt and violent. I experienced that first hand. I live in Virginia now, so I don’t really follow local MD politics anymore - the state has just gone too liberal for me, despite the recent election. But for TWENTY years that I lived there and was “aware”, an entire county had a known reputation for corruption and brutality… I don’t know what it’s like now, I won’t set foot in PG county for any reason and I won’t allow my family to go there.
Why was that allowed to persist? Where were the checks and balances? How was that kind of systemic abuse and subsequent cover up tolerated for so long? What can communities that are systematically being stepped on do about it?[/quote]
I can only give my opinion based on my own personal experiences. If the climate is as described in your locality, it needs federal oversight. I do not condone abusive conduct on our part. In fact, my standards (and our department as a whole) are elevated beyond the general public. They have to be.
But to be honest, I don’t know how I would react if feces and urine was thrown on me for simply doing my job. I just don’t know (referring to NYPD).
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]Brett620 wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Like it or not and if it’s “Politically correct” to talk about it or not, the police ALL OVER the country abuse their power. From New York to LA and everything in between. How often are they brought to justice? How many BAD COPS go to PRISON? Sure, some of them are reprimanded or get fired, but how many actually receive the JUSTICE they would get from their actions if they were NOT police?
There are THOUSANDS of DOCUMENTED incidents of police abusing their power, how many indictments?
Did any of the police who burned that baby’s face off get in trouble? Nope…
THEY ARE NOT GODS!!! There HAS to be accountability!!!
[/quote]
???
Unfortunately, over the past several years we have had several officers fired and indicted for crimes. One is in the federal pen. I agree with every conviction too. They are a blight on our profession.
Too bad there is not a PM function. I would give you specifics. In my experience, in my department, if you commit a crime, you get treated like everyone else.
[/quote]
Brett, you and I have had many a productive discussion before. I KNOW you are one of the good guys, and I have nothing but positive wishes for you and yours - I mean that. It also seems that you have a pretty decent department that you are working for. I’m sure your community is grateful for that. But if your department is on one end of the “bell curve”, what is do be done about the departments/officers that are on the OTHER end?
I don’t know what the numbers are. I don’t have that data. I DO know that for something like 20 years, it was “common knowledge” that Prince Georges county (in Maryland) cops were corrupt and violent. I experienced that first hand. I live in Virginia now, so I don’t really follow local MD politics anymore - the state has just gone too liberal for me, despite the recent election. But for TWENTY years that I lived there and was “aware”, an entire county had a known reputation for corruption and brutality… I don’t know what it’s like now, I won’t set foot in PG county for any reason and I won’t allow my family to go there.
Why was that allowed to persist? Where were the checks and balances? How was that kind of systemic abuse and subsequent cover up tolerated for so long? What can communities that are systematically being stepped on do about it?[/quote]
I can only give my opinion based on my own personal experiences. If the climate is as described in your locality, it needs federal oversight. I do not condone abusive conduct on our part. In fact, my standards (and our department as a whole) are elevated beyond the general public. They have to be.
But to be honest, I don’t know how I would react if feces and urine was thrown on me for simply doing my job. I just don’t know (referring to NYPD).
[/quote]
You stop showing up when people call 911. If people are going to act that unruly, then give them a taste of what it’s like to NOT have cops around.
Fuck 'em, if they want to act like savages, treat them like savages.