Chimps Stronger Than Humans?

[quote]Grimnuruk wrote:
jjoseph_x wrote:
Tithonus81 wrote:
Why did we evolve weaker muscles and mutant MYH16 genes? I think you have no further to look than the what’s sitting between your two ears: the human brain.

[Begin Rant]

That’s not how evolution works. There’s no evolutionary reason why we aren’t as strong as chimps (like “well they’re smarter so we won’t make them any stronger”).

Genetically it just-so-happens that we aren’t. If any human was as strong as a chimp (and as smart as we are, for thousands of years might made right in human society), that person’s genes would be naturally selected (i.e. assume that they’re male, they beat the tar out of the rival males and shag all of the women rotten).

The thing that annoys the heck out of me when people talk about evolutions is that they act as though it’s an active process to advance a species; it isn’t. It’s a random mutation that’s naturally selected (i.e. it helps you to survive so that you can pass it on to your offspring)… it’s all about luck.

Saying that “species X evolved a feature so that they could…” is like saying “Jimmy grew another foot so that he could play basketball his senior year”… nothing Jimmy did caused him to grow, he lucked-out.

[/End Rant]

The second half of your rant is basically correct but the first half is incorrect. (As a student of anthropology, I lived and breathed this stuff for several years before health problems forced me to stop my doctoral work, so I am rather well equipped to make these statements and offer corrections, I did it for a living and I was good at it.)

Do strong men always win out over weaker men in competing for women’s attention today? No. Does the strongest male chimp always win out over the weaker to become Alpha Male and mate with more females? No. (read Chimpanzee Politics by Frans de Waal). Not in even less culturally complex primates such as baboons does the simply strongest male father more offspring. Intelligence,particularly political or interindividual manipulative intelligence is very often the primary deciding factor. After humans evolved (through random mutation(s)) modern characteristics: intelligence and culture, greater strength alone was not as needed therefore it was very possible for it to be selected out like any other trait that is not constantly called for by the environment.

Hominins didn’t require great strength to throw the javelin into massive animals because spear thrower technology(a cultural invention)allows greater force to be generated by a much weaker human. A guy that could weave nets to catch game and fish could support more kids than the guys running down and killing large dangerous animals at close range, partially because the risk/benefit ratio was much better.

Eventually people who cultivated the naturally occurring plants in the environment had an even better risk/benefit ratio and overran the last of the complex hunter/gatherers.
Evolution is directionless in that it is only a response of selection of naturally occurring variation in response to environmental stressors.

[/quote]

But if there were a race of early humans who were 4-8 times stronger than other humans, yet just as smart, wouldn’t they have a much better chance of survival and wouldn’t they eventually… umm… for lack of a better expression “prevail” genetically?

Even if it started with one human, his/her offspring would all have a great advantage (again intelligence and everything else being equal), and eventually, I’d image that they would become the dominant sub-specices of homo sapiens.

[quote]ElbowStrike wrote:
jjoseph_x wrote:

[begin rant]

That’s not how evolution works. There’s no evolutionary reason why we aren’t as strong as chimps (like “well they’re smarter so we won’t make them any stronger”).

Genetically it just-so-happens that we aren’t. If any human was as strong as a chimp (and as smart as we are, for thousands of years might made right in human society), that person’s genes would be naturally selected (i.e. assume that they’re male, they beat the tar out of the rival males and shag all of the women rotten).

The thing that annoys the heck out of me when people talk about evolutions is that they act as though it’s an active process to advance a species; it isn’t. It’s a random mutation that’s naturally selected (i.e. it helps you to survive so that you can pass it on to your offspring)… it’s all about luck.

Saying that “species X evolved a feature so that they could…” is like saying “Jimmy grew another foot so that he could play basketball his senior year”… nothing Jimmy did caused him to grow, he lucked-out.

[/End Rant]

This wiki stub is food for thought.

I agree with some of what you’re saying here. Evolution doesn’t happen “so that” something else could occur, a random mutation happens and either it works or it doesn’t.

It’s basically the effect of the free market finding the most efficient business models.

Organisms are in the “business” of acquiring nutrients and reproducing. The most efficient businesses/organisms will find their niche and grow/reproduce.

If another business/organism comes by, fills the same niche, and is more effective at doing business, it wiped out the old business/genes.

A prehistoric hominid is born with a mutant MYH16 gene which leaves him/her with smaller, weaker jaw muscles. Males with the mutant weakness gene wouldn’t survive but females would as there are seldom any unmated females in primate & human societies.

If any of these offspring, generations later, are born with larger braincases and brains and also have the mutant MYH16 gene for weaker muscles, there’s room for their massive brains to pass through the birth canal without killing momma Lucy.

If one of them were born with the larger braincase but still had massive jaw musculature, they might’ve simply killed momma hominid in childbirth. This could be why no humans on earth have the “original” MYH16 gene. Babies’ heads are already large enough that without modern medicine a good 1/4 - 1/2 of women die in childbirth.

Imagine a woman trying to birth a baby with a normal head size PLUS massive masseters and their accompanying tuberosities? Chance of survival is not bloody likely.

However… if we could genetically alter future generations of women to have even more massive birth canals (although this would probably cause huge problems with patellofemoral pain disorder, which could be why we haven’t evolved larger birth canals… a woman who can’t walk or run would have been a liability to survival of the group and eventually be abandoned…).

The best we could do is possibly have the original MYH16 gene become “activated” as a secondary sexual characteristic at puberty… but then the new muscles would simply tear off our weak human tuberosities right off the bone…

Hmm…

– ElbowStrike
[/quote]

But would the jaw musculature be sufficiently prominant at birth as to pose a problem for delivery (i.e. killing the mother in child birth)? Or would the jaw only sufficiently significantly develop after birth?

[But if there were a race of early humans who were 4-8 times stronger than other humans, yet just as smart, wouldn’t they have a much better chance of survival and wouldn’t they eventually… umm… for lack of a better expression “prevail” genetically?

Even if it started with one human, his/her offspring would all have a great advantage (again intelligence and everything else being equal), and eventually, I’d image that they would become the dominant sub-specices of homo sapiens.

[/quote]

Certainly chance played a huge role as you have mentioned. The thing is how they lived, what activities they had to excel at to live, changed, new niches were found to adapt to with the greater intelligence. Now, keep in mind that I wish were all a bunch of super strong Homo heidelbergensis bodied people today who also have the same developed brains.

What we are left with, looking at the archaeological/fossil record is that we are the only ones left. Homo erectus had, on average a brain size of 1100 cc, they (or those slightly more ancient then them) are the first to have left Africa and survive in the harsher environment of Eurasia. A big brain, but not nearly the intelligence we have based on their incredible primitive and static technology.

Homo heidelbergensis, which seems to have evolved in Africa from erectus, then entered Eurasia and also flourished until the next large climate shift due to encroaching glaciation drove most of them out. Those who stayed and survived developed into Neanderthals, whose brain size was even larger than modern humans. All three of these hominins were much, much stronger than modern humans based on their bone morphology.

And yet they are gone and we aren’t.
What seems to be the case (and this is contested within the field as it should be, that is how we move forward) is that a relatively small population (10,000 individuals has been suggested)of the African heidelbergensis descended types in a genetic bottleneck had enough adaptive mutations to develop full-blown modern intelligence. These then slowly moved out over the whole globe becoming us.

As intelligence/culture became the driving factor strength just wasn’t selected for as strongly, therefore it was quickly lost as it wasn’t selected for anymore. It atrophied like a muscle that hardly got worked at all would.

– ElbowStrike

But would the jaw musculature be sufficiently prominant at birth as to pose a problem for delivery (i.e. killing the mother in child birth)? Or would the jaw only sufficiently significantly develop after birth?

[/quote]

Jaw size isn’t the issue, brain size is.

[quote]Grimnuruk wrote:

I believe you. However, with the greater amount of shared genes between humans and chimps we have basically the same blood, similar digestive,circulatory, muscular, etc. systems. Whereas pears are good to eat…
[/quote]

So are chimps.

Elbowstrike,
By the way, like the name. If you are looking for a pic to match it this might work (if not too hard to make out when small): http://www.viewimages.com/Search.aspx?mid=72510659&partner=Yahoo&epmid=2&phrase=elbow%20fighting

or a nice classical Greek one with accompanying blood spurt: http://historical-pankration.com/archive_item.html?archiveid=1041

I bet a chimp could curl a 35 lb dumbbell

[quote]ElbowStrike wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Did you just use a cartoon on You tube to attempt to disprove the influence of “intelligent design”?

It’s all the effort the “argument” is worth. The only people left in the world who still believe in intelligent design live in the Middle-East and the southern United States.

Not exactly the academic elite.[/quote]

Intelligence has nothing to do with belief in God. In fact, many intelligent people get puffed up in all their knowledge and their arrogance clouds them from believing.

“If we need an atheist for a debate, I’d go to the philosophy department. The physics department isn’t much use.”
-Dr. Robert Griffith

[quote]GhostNtheSystem wrote:

Intelligence has nothing to do with belief in God. In fact, many intelligent people get puffed up in all their knowledge and their arrogance clouds them from believing.

[/quote]

You could change your “from” to “into” and that would make just as much sense.

[quote]SWR-1240 wrote:
GhostNtheSystem wrote:

Intelligence has nothing to do with belief in God. In fact, many intelligent people get puffed up in all their knowledge and their arrogance clouds them from believing.

You could change your “from” to “into” and that would make just as much sense.[/quote]

Not at all. Even the bushman can believe in God. Knowledge is not important nor an advantage.

[quote]jjoseph_x wrote:
Grimnuruk wrote:
jjoseph_x wrote:
Tithonus81 wrote:
Why did we evolve weaker muscles and mutant MYH16 genes? I think you have no further to look than the what’s sitting between your two ears: the human brain.

[Begin Rant]

That’s not how evolution works. There’s no evolutionary reason why we aren’t as strong as chimps (like “well they’re smarter so we won’t make them any stronger”).

Genetically it just-so-happens that we aren’t. If any human was as strong as a chimp (and as smart as we are, for thousands of years might made right in human society), that person’s genes would be naturally selected (i.e. assume that they’re male, they beat the tar out of the rival males and shag all of the women rotten).

The thing that annoys the heck out of me when people talk about evolutions is that they act as though it’s an active process to advance a species; it isn’t. It’s a random mutation that’s naturally selected (i.e. it helps you to survive so that you can pass it on to your offspring)… it’s all about luck.

Saying that “species X evolved a feature so that they could…” is like saying “Jimmy grew another foot so that he could play basketball his senior year”… nothing Jimmy did caused him to grow, he lucked-out.

[/End Rant]

The second half of your rant is basically correct but the first half is incorrect. (As a student of anthropology, I lived and breathed this stuff for several years before health problems forced me to stop my doctoral work, so I am rather well equipped to make these statements and offer corrections, I did it for a living and I was good at it.)

Do strong men always win out over weaker men in competing for women’s attention today? No. Does the strongest male chimp always win out over the weaker to become Alpha Male and mate with more females? No. (read Chimpanzee Politics by Frans de Waal). Not in even less culturally complex primates such as baboons does the simply strongest male father more offspring. Intelligence,particularly political or interindividual manipulative intelligence is very often the primary deciding factor. After humans evolved (through random mutation(s)) modern characteristics: intelligence and culture, greater strength alone was not as needed therefore it was very possible for it to be selected out like any other trait that is not constantly called for by the environment.

Hominins didn’t require great strength to throw the javelin into massive animals because spear thrower technology(a cultural invention)allows greater force to be generated by a much weaker human. A guy that could weave nets to catch game and fish could support more kids than the guys running down and killing large dangerous animals at close range, partially because the risk/benefit ratio was much better.

Eventually people who cultivated the naturally occurring plants in the environment had an even better risk/benefit ratio and overran the last of the complex hunter/gatherers.
Evolution is directionless in that it is only a response of selection of naturally occurring variation in response to environmental stressors.

But if there were a race of early humans who were 4-8 times stronger than other humans, yet just as smart, wouldn’t they have a much better chance of survival and wouldn’t they eventually… umm… for lack of a better expression “prevail” genetically?

Even if it started with one human, his/her offspring would all have a great advantage (again intelligence and everything else being equal), and eventually, I’d image that they would become the dominant sub-specices of homo sapiens.

[/quote]

No. There are many other factors than sheer strength that can be more favorable in the ability to catch and kill prey and reproduce.

[quote]Grimnuruk wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Chimps are stronger because they are a different species than we are. Why is that difficult to understand? Why are tigers faster humans? Why are elephants so much bigger than humans? How come ants can lift 100X’s their body weight and we can’t?

Different genes, different anatomy, different musculature, different everything.

Actually chimps have approximately 98 percent the EXACT same genes that we have, same anatomy, same muscles, same everything. Its called physical anthropology or comparative anatomy…look it up.

[/quote]

I don’t know about you, but I look nothing like a chimp. Chimps are a totally different species. Yes, they have arms and hands and feet and biceps and and all that, but we are very different. There is something in that 2% that makes us completely different.

Why did apes and monkeys never evolve?

If this is turning into an evolution discussion, why aren’t there any half-evolved cavemen today. I mean if we all started out as apes or monkeys, and we evolved to where we are today, surely there should be some species right in the middle.

[quote]GhostNtheSystem wrote:
SWR-1240 wrote:
GhostNtheSystem wrote:

Intelligence has nothing to do with belief in God. In fact, many intelligent people get puffed up in all their knowledge and their arrogance clouds them from believing.

You could change your “from” to “into” and that would make just as much sense.

Not at all. Even the bushman can believe in God. Knowledge is not important nor an advantage.

[/quote]

You can say that again.

[quote]PGJ wrote:

Why did apes and monkeys never evolve?

If this is turning into an evolution discussion, why aren’t there any half-evolved cavemen today. I mean if we all started out as apes or monkeys, and we evolved to where we are today, surely there should be some species right in the middle.

[/quote]

Please tell me you are joking.

[quote]Digital Chainsaw wrote:
PGJ wrote:

Why did apes and monkeys never evolve?

If this is turning into an evolution discussion, why aren’t there any half-evolved cavemen today. I mean if we all started out as apes or monkeys, and we evolved to where we are today, surely there should be some species right in the middle.

Please tell me you are joking.
[/quote]

I don’t think he is.

I suspect this thread is going to “evolve” into another group ignorance display. I am constantly amazed at the number of people who can’t do a little reading and thinking with a clear critical mind to understand a few basic concepts that are uncontroversial to anyone with an understanding of them. It’s like the newbs who come on the site asking about “gaining weight” or something, without reading any of the articles first.

They did evolve. Evolution moves differently for different organisms in different environments. Some forms are static or nearly so for extremely long periods of time because they fit their environment so well that natural selection acts on them very little.

Their is no such thing as “half-evolved.” That suggests that there is an end “goal” of evolution. It is a survival response to environmental pressure. Evolution is simply change. one definition is change in gene frequency in a population through time. It is happening all the time. That’s why we need new vaccines and drugs to combat diseases, because the disease organisms are changing/being changed in response to their environment. Antibiotic resistance is becoming a problem due to an over saturation of the environment with antibiotic soaps and the like.

Cavemen? People just as modern as those of us on this forum lived in caves for 10’s of thousands of years. Our cultures have evolved and become more advanced through time to where we don’t have to do that anymore. Erase all but a few 10 thousands of people on the globe, all memory and evidence of our current technology and cultures from their minds and environment and people wouldn’t just be slapping up houses and driving hummers.

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
No. There are many other factors than sheer strength that can be more favorable in the ability to catch and kill prey and reproduce. [/quote]

You missed the first paragraph. I said that: “what if there was a race that was as smart as current humans but 4-8 as strong”.

They have all of the advantages of regular humans but are stronger, how doesn’t that help them to catch and kill prey?

Obviously strength by itself isn’t that important (we’re among the weaklings of the animal kingdom, but we do okay)… but strength AND intelligence is a favourable combination.

[quote]Grimnuruk wrote:
I am constantly amazed at the number of people who can’t do a little reading and thinking with a clear critical mind to understand a few basic concepts…
[/quote]

I’m amazed when I find someone that DOES do some real research and thinking with a clear critical mind to understand a few basic concepts.

The vast majority of people seem to be not only physically lazy, but mentally lazy as well.

[quote]Grimnuruk wrote:
Digital Chainsaw wrote:
PGJ wrote:

Why did apes and monkeys never evolve?

If this is turning into an evolution discussion, why aren’t there any half-evolved cavemen today. I mean if we all started out as apes or monkeys, and we evolved to where we are today, surely there should be some species right in the middle.

Please tell me you are joking.

I don’t think he is.

I suspect this thread is going to “evolve” into another group ignorance display. I am constantly amazed at the number of people who can’t do a little reading and thinking with a clear critical mind to understand a few basic concepts that are uncontroversial to anyone with an understanding of them. It’s like the newbs who come on the site asking about “gaining weight” or something, without reading any of the articles first.

They did evolve. Evolution moves differently for different organisms in different environments. Some forms are static or nearly so for extremely long periods of time because they fit their environment so well that natural selection acts on them very little.

Their is no such thing as “half-evolved.” That suggests that there is an end “goal” of evolution. It is a survival response to environmental pressure. Evolution is simply change. one definition is change in gene frequency in a population through time. It is happening all the time. That’s why we need new vaccines and drugs to combat diseases, because the disease organisms are changing/being changed in response to their environment. Antibiotic resistance is becoming a problem due to an over saturation of the environment with antibiotic soaps and the like.

Cavemen? People just as modern as those of us on this forum lived in caves for 10’s of thousands of years. Our cultures have evolved and become more advanced through time to where we don’t have to do that anymore. Erase all but a few 10 thousands of people on the globe, all memory and evidence of our current technology and cultures from their minds and environment and people wouldn’t just be slapping up houses and driving hummers.

[/quote]

I’m not looking to get into a huge scientific/religious argument. I don’t agree with the THEORY of evolution. That doesn’t make me stupid. I see a lot of scientists making the evidence meet the theory, like your “well it doesn’t work for everything” argument. Evolutionists like to call people names. To me, evolution means changing from one thing into another (ie, monkey to man). Evolution is not lizards who learn to swim, or a bird that grows an unusually large beak. That is adaptation. Evolution would be a dog changing into lion.

If you believe man evolved from something else, then where are we going? Surely we are still evolving. Why aren’t there creatures somewhere in between monkey and man? Or do you believe everything has stopped evolving because we are so well adapted to this environment?

[quote]PGJ wrote:
I don’t agree with the THEORY of evolution. That doesn’t make me stupid.
[/quote]

Here’s a totally zanny idea. If you really want answers to your questions about the theory of evolution, why don’t you do some honest research on a web site and/or with books that can answer your questions accurately with up to date research and critical thinking?

[quote]PGJ wrote:
Grimnuruk wrote:
Digital Chainsaw wrote:
PGJ wrote:

Why did apes and monkeys never evolve?

If this is turning into an evolution discussion, why aren’t there any half-evolved cavemen today. I mean if we all started out as apes or monkeys, and we evolved to where we are today, surely there should be some species right in the middle.

Please tell me you are joking.

I don’t think he is.

I suspect this thread is going to “evolve” into another group ignorance display. I am constantly amazed at the number of people who can’t do a little reading and thinking with a clear critical mind to understand a few basic concepts that are uncontroversial to anyone with an understanding of them. It’s like the newbs who come on the site asking about “gaining weight” or something, without reading any of the articles first.

They did evolve. Evolution moves differently for different organisms in different environments. Some forms are static or nearly so for extremely long periods of time because they fit their environment so well that natural selection acts on them very little.

Their is no such thing as “half-evolved.” That suggests that there is an end “goal” of evolution. It is a survival response to environmental pressure. Evolution is simply change. one definition is change in gene frequency in a population through time. It is happening all the time. That’s why we need new vaccines and drugs to combat diseases, because the disease organisms are changing/being changed in response to their environment. Antibiotic resistance is becoming a problem due to an over saturation of the environment with antibiotic soaps and the like.

Cavemen? People just as modern as those of us on this forum lived in caves for 10’s of thousands of years. Our cultures have evolved and become more advanced through time to where we don’t have to do that anymore. Erase all but a few 10 thousands of people on the globe, all memory and evidence of our current technology and cultures from their minds and environment and people wouldn’t just be slapping up houses and driving hummers.

I’m not looking to get into a huge scientific/religious argument. I don’t agree with the THEORY of evolution. That doesn’t make me stupid. I see a lot of scientists making the evidence meet the theory, like your “well it doesn’t work for everything” argument. Evolutionists like to call people names. To me, evolution means changing from one thing into another (ie, monkey to man). Evolution is not lizards who learn to swim, or a bird that grows an unusually large beak. That is adaptation. Evolution would be a dog changing into lion.

If you believe man evolved from something else, then where are we going? Surely we are still evolving. Why aren’t there creatures somewhere in between monkey and man? Or do you believe everything has stopped evolving because we are so well adapted to this environment?
[/quote]

Wow.

The questions you pose show your complete and utter ignorance of this subject.

Please, take unearth’s advice.