Chimps Stronger Than Humans?

[quote]TunaMonkey wrote:
Does anyone think there is a possiblity for ‘reverse evolutionary engineering’…i.e. surgically altering insertion points to imitate the apes. Or possibly altering the body’s ability to produce aminos?[/quote]

I had a professor who told the class that the Eastern Bloc tried this with some wrestlers. They surgically detached and reattached the wrestlers’ bicep tendons to give a better strength advantage.

The experiment was a complete failure. After the operation the wrestlers were completely incompetent at completing a number of activities of daily living because the body could not adapt to their new anatomy. They couldn’t even feed themselves until the operation was reversed.

As for aminos, that’s something genetic modification technology will probably be able to do within our lifetimes, but probably only something we could do at the embryonic level for future generations.

To change the genetics of a living human being… that takes custom-programmed viruses… and it has to be a virus that in nature infects the target tissue type, then you have to figure out which genes do what in the virus, then reprogram them, and… ugh… I quit the “genetics” program after two years in favour of a degree in “physical education”. Best lifestyle decision ever.

[quote]GhostNtheSystem wrote:
First off, evolution is a poor theory with no evidence to back it up. As far as I’m concerned, evolution ranks up there with Santa Claus. Chimps are stronger because God made them that way. QED.[/quote]

Hey, don’t bring that shit in here!

[quote]TunaMonkey wrote:
The answer isn’t just sheer muscle bulk. It’s also to do with that fact that their muscles work around five to seven times more efficiently than ours. Studies of human and other primates’ jaw muscles show that our muscle fibres are far smaller and weaker than those of our cousins - roughly an eighth the size of those seen in macaques, for example.

The reasons for this remain poorly understood, but one contributing factor is the genes that encode myosin, the protein fibres from which muscles are made. Comparison of human and ape sequences for a myosin gene called MYH16 show that all humans have a mutant version of this gene.[/quote]

Here’s my “I believe it to be true, but I can’t prove it”

I think the MYH16 thing makes total sense. It could be that this mutation was what pushed our ancestors on the evolutionary path towards bigger brains and, ultimately, towards intelligence. Sure, it could have killed them, but (if I’m correct) it didn’t - it just forced them to use other means than sheer muscular force.

“So, hmmm, I can’t push that boulder away… I wonder what happens if I stick this thick branch underneath and push the branch instead”
Voila! Instant lever, and the ape just got a little bit smarter.

[quote]GhostNtheSystem wrote:
First off, evolution is a poor theory with no evidence to back it up. As far as I’m concerned, evolution ranks up there with Santa Claus. Chimps are stronger because God made them that way. QED.[/quote]

Evolution in Simplest Terms.

Evolution of the Flagellum

Annihilates one of the few remaining “arguments” in favour of intelligent design.

Annihilates? More like fluff to me.

[quote]ElbowStrike wrote:

Evolution of the Flagellum

Annihilates one of the few remaining “arguments” in favour of intelligent design.

[/quote]

Did you just use a cartoon on You tube to attempt to disprove the influence of “intelligent design”?

I am all for discussing science. However, most of the responses in this thread (like arm leverage) are just random people shouting out stuff and hoping it sounds good. You leaped over all of this to attack the ONE SINGLE SOLITARY poster who mentioned intelligent design, swooped in for the attack…and pulled a cartoon off You Tube out of your ass for weaponry?

Let me guess, you can send text messages faster than anyone in your class.

Carry on. I just found that funny as all hell. I don’t even want this thread to turn into a religious debate.

[quote]GhostNtheSystem wrote:
First off, evolution is a poor theory with no evidence to back it up. As far as I’m concerned, evolution ranks up there with Santa Claus. Chimps are stronger because God made them that way. QED.[/quote]

Exactly. The Flying Spaghetti Monster, in His Noodly Wisdom, loves to see chimps hang from branches, so He made them strong enough to do it all day. To compensate, he gave us - not big brains - but snazzy pirate outfits. Now, really, what’s better: Looking like a pirate, or being superhumanly strong? Arrr, no contest, landlubber!

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Did you just use a cartoon on You tube to attempt to disprove the influence of “intelligent design”?[/quote]

It’s all the effort the “argument” is worth. The only people left in the world who still believe in intelligent design live in the Middle-East and the southern United States.

Not exactly the academic elite.

All this talk of chimps just made me think of this:

As with anything else of this nature, both the genetic inheritance and the environmental influence must be taken into consideration. However, it must be understood that even a much more active set of human activities from birth does not create the kind of strength you see in the great apes.

Think about the last remaining “hunter/gatherers” studied by anthropologists in the past century, plenty of endurance, sure, but huge, impressive strength…no. Also, a study done many years ago (don’t have the reference handy) with a CAGED, inactive chimp weighing less than 100lbs showed it could pull something like 1100 pounds in a “rowing” like movement.

So think what a weight trained, Metabolic Drive fed chimp would be capable of…
This touches on a subject that I often consider when reading through articles of ancient hominin subsistence strategies, hunting in particular. I believe strongly that pre modern humans did have the kind of CRAZY strength that you would find with a nonmutated MYH16 gene.

I believe that there is real lack of understanding of this in anthropologists discussing the use of “primitive” tools such as spears and javelins to take down very large prey (mammoth were actually taken, but woolly rhino’s were often a much more common prey, as well as wild horses and large deer species depending on the climate/environment).

They are projecting their own average modern weak guy strength on to what the biological evidence (bones) tell us were phenomenally strong early humans (Homo heidelbergensis and neanderthalensis). I know that when I was at my full strength as a feedmill worker I could do stuff that really freaked people out.

Double that and you have elite strength athletes of today…go well beyond that(with no training just survival activity) and it gets SCARY… that’s the kind of strength responsible for putting a (firehardened point) spruce spear through the muscle and deeply into the hip bone of a horse (Schoeningen) or similar tool into a steppe elephant(Lehringen)

If all modern humans have this weakening mutation, it stands to reason that it evolved in the relatively small population of ancient africans who became modern ancestors to all living humans (the same group some consider to have the “great leap forward” of “real” art and language) So, the “Darwinistic” reason behind it would simply be that advanced brain (due to mutation) allows for advanced culture (external survival mechanism) that allows survival and proliferation without great strength.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
ElbowStrike wrote:

Evolution of the Flagellum

Annihilates one of the few remaining “arguments” in favour of intelligent design.

Did you just use a cartoon on You tube to attempt to disprove the influence of “intelligent design”?

I am all for discussing science. However, most of the responses in this thread (like arm leverage) are just random people shouting out stuff and hoping it sounds good. You leaped over all of this to attack the ONE SINGLE SOLITARY poster who mentioned intelligent design, swooped in for the attack…and pulled a cartoon off You Tube out of your ass for weaponry?

Let me guess, you can send text messages faster than anyone in your class.

Carry on. I just found that funny as all hell. I don’t even want this thread to turn into a religious debate.[/quote]

I agree, lets have a real discussion here, not a primate poop flinging. There are plenty of scientists who are able to reconcile their religious beliefs with the scientific evidence.

Chimps are stronger because they are a different species than we are. Why is that difficult to understand? Why are tigers faster humans? Why are elephants so much bigger than humans? How come ants can lift 100X’s their body weight and we can’t?

Different genes, different anatomy, different musculature, different everything.

So when is Biotest going to put this “nonmutated MYH16 gene” out on the market? :smiley:

[quote]Tithonus81 wrote:
Why did we evolve weaker muscles and mutant MYH16 genes? I think you have no further to look than the what’s sitting between your two ears: the human brain.
[/quote]

[Begin Rant]

That’s not how evolution works. There’s no evolutionary reason why we aren’t as strong as chimps (like “well they’re smarter so we won’t make them any stronger”).

Genetically it just-so-happens that we aren’t. If any human was as strong as a chimp (and as smart as we are, for thousands of years might made right in human society), that person’s genes would be naturally selected (i.e. assume that they’re male, they beat the tar out of the rival males and shag all of the women rotten).

The thing that annoys the heck out of me when people talk about evolutions is that they act as though it’s an active process to advance a species; it isn’t. It’s a random mutation that’s naturally selected (i.e. it helps you to survive so that you can pass it on to your offspring)… it’s all about luck.

Saying that “species X evolved a feature so that they could…” is like saying “Jimmy grew another foot so that he could play basketball his senior year”… nothing Jimmy did caused him to grow, he lucked-out.

[/End Rant]

[quote]jjoseph_x wrote:

[begin rant]

That’s not how evolution works. There’s no evolutionary reason why we aren’t as strong as chimps (like “well they’re smarter so we won’t make them any stronger”).

Genetically it just-so-happens that we aren’t. If any human was as strong as a chimp (and as smart as we are, for thousands of years might made right in human society), that person’s genes would be naturally selected (i.e. assume that they’re male, they beat the tar out of the rival males and shag all of the women rotten).

The thing that annoys the heck out of me when people talk about evolutions is that they act as though it’s an active process to advance a species; it isn’t. It’s a random mutation that’s naturally selected (i.e. it helps you to survive so that you can pass it on to your offspring)… it’s all about luck.

Saying that “species X evolved a feature so that they could…” is like saying “Jimmy grew another foot so that he could play basketball his senior year”… nothing Jimmy did caused him to grow, he lucked-out.

[/End Rant]
[/quote]

This wiki stub is food for thought.

I agree with some of what you’re saying here. Evolution doesn’t happen “so that” something else could occur, a random mutation happens and either it works or it doesn’t.

It’s basically the effect of the free market finding the most efficient business models.

Organisms are in the “business” of acquiring nutrients and reproducing. The most efficient businesses/organisms will find their niche and grow/reproduce.

If another business/organism comes by, fills the same niche, and is more effective at doing business, it wiped out the old business/genes.

A prehistoric hominid is born with a mutant MYH16 gene which leaves him/her with smaller, weaker jaw muscles. Males with the mutant weakness gene wouldn’t survive but females would as there are seldom any unmated females in primate & human societies.

If any of these offspring, generations later, are born with larger braincases and brains and also have the mutant MYH16 gene for weaker muscles, there’s room for their massive brains to pass through the birth canal without killing momma Lucy.

If one of them were born with the larger braincase but still had massive jaw musculature, they might’ve simply killed momma hominid in childbirth. This could be why no humans on earth have the “original” MYH16 gene. Babies’ heads are already large enough that without modern medicine a good 1/4 - 1/2 of women die in childbirth.

Imagine a woman trying to birth a baby with a normal head size PLUS massive masseters and their accompanying tuberosities? Chance of survival is not bloody likely.

However… if we could genetically alter future generations of women to have even more massive birth canals (although this would probably cause huge problems with patellofemoral pain disorder, which could be why we haven’t evolved larger birth canals… a woman who can’t walk or run would have been a liability to survival of the group and eventually be abandoned…).

The best we could do is possibly have the original MYH16 gene become “activated” as a secondary sexual characteristic at puberty… but then the new muscles would simply tear off our weak human tuberosities right off the bone…

Hmm…

– ElbowStrike

[quote]jjoseph_x wrote:
Tithonus81 wrote:
Why did we evolve weaker muscles and mutant MYH16 genes? I think you have no further to look than the what’s sitting between your two ears: the human brain.

[Begin Rant]

That’s not how evolution works. There’s no evolutionary reason why we aren’t as strong as chimps (like “well they’re smarter so we won’t make them any stronger”).

Genetically it just-so-happens that we aren’t. If any human was as strong as a chimp (and as smart as we are, for thousands of years might made right in human society), that person’s genes would be naturally selected (i.e. assume that they’re male, they beat the tar out of the rival males and shag all of the women rotten).

The thing that annoys the heck out of me when people talk about evolutions is that they act as though it’s an active process to advance a species; it isn’t. It’s a random mutation that’s naturally selected (i.e. it helps you to survive so that you can pass it on to your offspring)… it’s all about luck.

Saying that “species X evolved a feature so that they could…” is like saying “Jimmy grew another foot so that he could play basketball his senior year”… nothing Jimmy did caused him to grow, he lucked-out.

[/End Rant]

[/quote]
The second half of your rant is basically correct but the first half is incorrect. (As a student of anthropology, I lived and breathed this stuff for several years before health problems forced me to stop my doctoral work, so I am rather well equipped to make these statements and offer corrections, I did it for a living and I was good at it.)

Do strong men always win out over weaker men in competing for women’s attention today? No. Does the strongest male chimp always win out over the weaker to become Alpha Male and mate with more females? No. (read Chimpanzee Politics by Frans de Waal). Not in even less culturally complex primates such as baboons does the simply strongest male father more offspring. Intelligence,particularly political or interindividual manipulative intelligence is very often the primary deciding factor. After humans evolved (through random mutation(s)) modern characteristics: intelligence and culture, greater strength alone was not as needed therefore it was very possible for it to be selected out like any other trait that is not constantly called for by the environment.

Hominins didn’t require great strength to throw the javelin into massive animals because spear thrower technology(a cultural invention)allows greater force to be generated by a much weaker human. A guy that could weave nets to catch game and fish could support more kids than the guys running down and killing large dangerous animals at close range, partially because the risk/benefit ratio was much better.

Eventually people who cultivated the naturally occurring plants in the environment had an even better risk/benefit ratio and overran the last of the complex hunter/gatherers.
Evolution is directionless in that it is only a response of selection of naturally occurring variation in response to environmental stressors.

[quote]PGJ wrote:
Chimps are stronger because they are a different species than we are. Why is that difficult to understand? Why are tigers faster humans? Why are elephants so much bigger than humans? How come ants can lift 100X’s their body weight and we can’t?

Different genes, different anatomy, different musculature, different everything.

[/quote]
Actually chimps have approximately 98 percent the EXACT same genes that we have, same anatomy, same muscles, same everything. Its called physical anthropology or comparative anatomy…look it up.

[quote]Grimnuruk wrote:
Actually chimps have approximately 98 percent the EXACT same genes that we have, same anatomy, same muscles, same everything. Its called physical anthropology or comparative anatomy…look it up.
[/quote]
A pear has 47% of the EXACT same genes that we have. :stuck_out_tongue:

[quote]ElbowStrike wrote:
Grimnuruk wrote:
Actually chimps have approximately 98 percent the EXACT same genes that we have, same anatomy, same muscles, same everything. Its called physical anthropology or comparative anatomy…look it up.

A pear has 47% of the EXACT same genes that we have. :P[/quote]

I believe you. However, with the greater amount of shared genes between humans and chimps we have basically the same blood, similar digestive,circulatory, muscular, etc. systems. Whereas pears are good to eat…