Cheesetastics Anonymous

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
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[quote]Moriarty wrote:
Ok Loth. My post suggested a format for presenting this information, so I’m not sure how the links you posted “answered my questions” (what were my questions again). But I also realize you were in a rush to give your standard smart-assed response so you didn’t read it carefully. It’s all good.
[/quote]

I wasn’t in a rush to be a smart-ass. Being a smart-ass means to take your time to get it right, which you didn’t. But I admire your efforts, Mor. Here were your questions:

[quote]By goals, I mean specific, quantifiable goals. For example:

  1. Produce X amount of usable power to Y percentage of the population.

  2. Train X number of security forces.

  3. Provide X percentage of the population with clean drinking water.[/quote]

Which can be found here, right where I said they were:

http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/accomplishments/

Along with a bunch of other relevant and interesting facts. Maybe you’re complaining because the stats aren’t exactly in your “X percentage” format? C’mon, split some more hairs while you’re at it!

TBC…

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Here’s something I found on GIS (google image search). Rock on fellas! Hey rangertab, do you know these guys? :slight_smile:
Okay, this is fluff. So sue me.

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I found this in a Seattle publication:

In it, an op-ed writer compares his view of reality to the one relayed by a soldier who served over in the sandbox.

Here I will “BB” the end of the article:

[quote]I weigh his views – about Iraq, about the military, about how the media look at the war. I weigh it all against a United Nations report that just came across my desk.

The report says malnutrition rates in children under 5 in Iraq have doubled since the U.S.-led intervention. When Saddam was overthrown, about 4 percent of Iraqi kids were going hungry, the report says. That figure is now at 8 percent.

So, which is the real Iraq?

The country described in bleak terms by the United Nations?

Or the land of optimism that inhabits soldier Schlicher’s mind?

I’m leaning toward the sobering report over the upbeat point of view as seen through one soldier’s eyes.
[/quote]

Quick lothario response to the above: Yeah, no shit you are, asshole. Guess what? Your UN report has been debunked:

How do you say “owned” in Seattle? I will accept your apology for publishing a piece of crap now, Mr. Jamieson.

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[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
I wasn’t in a rush to be a smart-ass. Being a smart-ass means to take your time to get it right, which you didn’t. But I admire your efforts, Mor. Here were your questions:

By goals, I mean specific, quantifiable goals. For example:

  1. Produce X amount of usable power to Y percentage of the population.

  2. Train X number of security forces.

  3. Provide X percentage of the population with clean drinking water.
    [/quote]

Well you left out this part of my quote:

“If you want to show that things are going well in Iraq, then first tell me what our goals are, and then show me how we’re progressing towards those goals.”

As you can see by reading my post, I was not asking what the current stats are for those metrics, but what our goals are. What have we defined as success? I refuse to believe that our leadership as not identified metrics and milestones that indicate progression towards success. What are they?

I’ve re-read your link, and I still don’t see what our goals are. Am I supposed to be clicking a link off of this page? I just see a bunch of accomplishments that, for the most part, do not provide any context as to how they move us toward a goal. I can see vaguely that we’ve done things to help people, but where do we stand?

Is it really a high standard to express a desire to define what our goals are before we start throwing out random factiods?

I don’t know why you want to start this pissing contest anyway. I’m not going to let you misquote me into saying anything other than what I said, which is that I would love to see a clear representation of what our quantifiable goals are and how we’re progressing towards them. Also, posting that link over and over again will not make it suddenly contain the information I inquired about.

I’m tired of explaining what I’m looking for, when it’s clearly written in my original post. Here, let me give you another example. From your link:

“Conducting water and sanitation projects worth $183 million that will benefit 14.5 million people.”

That’s very good. I’m very proud of our guys. How will this benefit the 14.5 million people exactly? Does this mean they all have clean drinking water? What percentage of Iraqis have clean drinking water on demand? What’s our goal for that metric? What’s our rate for reaching that goal? Who is accountable for reaching that goal? This isn’t nit-picking, it’s wanting to know what we’re doing with our billions of dollars and American lives. It isn’t suggesting our soldiers aren’t doing a good job fixing the water supply. I’m not claiming the data doesn’t exist. I’m not even saying you should provide this data in this thread (I suggested a new thread). I’m simply expressing a desire to see the information. Why does that anger you so much?

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[quote]Moriarty wrote:
I’m simply expressing a desire to see the information. Why does that anger you so much?[/quote]

Anger is not equal to exasperation. Balancing the search through the internet for positive stuff and dealing with nit-picking or whatever you want to call it is tricky. I would like to see the direct impact of all these ACE and USAID projects myself. Guess what? Nobody in the media wants to say anything about it! But there is this:

Which is direct coverage from our coalition forces in Iraq.

Now this is the part where the anti-US guys click the link, and see that it is direct from the armed forces, and then holler, “This is nothing more than US military propaganda!”

Can’t have it both ways, man. As much as I would LOVE for our media to get more involved with telling the WHOLE story and not just the death, I don’t see any other way other than assorted blogs, military sites, testimonials from soldiers who have been there, etc. You see what I’m getting at?

Finding positive stuff should be easy, because it’s happening. It is not easy. Therefore, draw your conclusions.

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[quote]deanosumo wrote:
Professor X wrote:
You aren’t doing anything but perpetuating the same action that you claim to hate from “the liberal media”. How you can’t see the hypocrisy in that is beyond me. Your goal isn’t truth…it is spin. I have no doubt that you would be ultimately happy if all media was controlled to edit out every death or explosion and ONLY focus in on candle lightings and smiling children…even if a dead soldier is 3 feet away.

To have any base in morality, your goal should simply be truth, not spin and hype. Again, this was quite CHEESETASTIC. Hell, I think someone needs to add that to an urban dictionary.

Didn’t you know the liberal media has been feeding us lies for 3 years now Prof? It’s actually a Utopia over there. People dance in the streets. Bush the great one has brought them democracy. People take baths in milk and honey and no-one ever dies or grows old. US servicemen over there are the luckiest people alive. It’s Disneyworld times ten!

[/quote]

I thought they took baths in crude oil, while laughing at us for paying $2 or $3/gallon for gasoline and heating oil while we’ve forgiven all their debt and spilled our blood?

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[quote]vroom wrote:
Sounds reasonable to me Joe. I know it would make for better content in some of the politics threads anyway.

Maybe we can put away the tactical nukes and reset the hair triggers a notch?[/quote]

Good. Thank you.

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[quote]I am assuming that the reason this shows up is because it is not positive news. I would classifiy it as “neutral”. The article explores the reasons for the lack of an appreciable increase in electicity supply in Iraq over the last year or so.

So there you go, Mor. Although we are above pre-war levels of electrical output, we haven’t made as much progress as we had planned on. There are more hurdles to jump than we had at first anticipated.[/quote]

Stop the presses!

I just figured out why they aren’t printing good news all that much. You see, in order to actually have a story, they’d have to examine the facts of the issue, such as the above.

Well, I suppose your local newspaper could contain 800 feel good blurbs saying things like…

  • Electricity produced in Iraq today.
  • Schools being built in Iraq today.
  • Many people not killed in Iraq today.
  • Soldiers given flowers by children in Iraq today.

Amazingly, the real news, which is actually news…

Cool, lets keep reporting on plans and milestones while seeing a discussion of why they are or are not achieved. What do you know, that might be “news”. Remember the good old who, what, when, where and why?

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[quote]Professor X wrote:
hedo wrote:
What is bullshit Professor? Presenting another side of an argument? Something that you don’t agree with.

How sad for you.

You’ll never understand the equation that leaders have to balance.

Perhaps one day you will. Today’s not that day.

You aren’t doing anything but perpetuating the same action that you claim to hate from “the liberal media”. How you can’t see the hypocrisy in that is beyond me. Your goal isn’t truth…it is spin. I have no doubt that you would be ultimately happy if all media was controlled to edit out every death or explosion and ONLY focus in on candle lightings and smiling children…even if a dead soldier is 3 feet away.

To have any base in morality, your goal should simply be truth, not spin and hype. Again, this was quite CHEESETASTIC. Hell, I think someone needs to add that to an urban dictionary.[/quote]

Yes that’s me. Answering a question posed in a topic instead of belaboring the same old talking points.

Perhaps you’ll pose a topic one day?

Read some of the links and the orginal question. Why is a different position then the exhalted Prof X wrong?

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[quote]hedo wrote:

Perhaps you’ll pose a topic one day?

[/quote]

I have…but you knew that, right?

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[quote]vroom wrote:
Conspiracy freaks.

Look, if there happens to be good news and bad news, which one do you think is the “real” news.

Hmm, which one will scare the audience or grab their attention more?

Sure, it may be under reported, but for goodness sakes, relax politically already.[/quote]

Well vroom for one, you start off by calling the posters conspiracy freaks… so now reporting good news is part of a conspiracy? Conspiracy to what?

Secondly, after you call us conspiracy freaks, you give us the “possible” reasoning which nobody ever asked for by the way, that they are only reporting on negative news because it sells better. Which if you do that right after you call someone a conspiracy freak makes you pretty much endorse that position automatically. And vroom, just because bad news sells, does not make it somehow right. remember here at the nation we strive to be better than… “it’s just how it is”, so don’t give me your crap.

The intent of this thread was never unclear yet you call it into question like it’s some cloak and dagger effort on our part to immortolize bush and get him a third term or something.

V

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[quote]Professor X wrote:
hedo wrote:
What is bullshit Professor? Presenting another side of an argument? Something that you don’t agree with.

How sad for you.

You’ll never understand the equation that leaders have to balance.

Perhaps one day you will. Today’s not that day.

You aren’t doing anything but perpetuating the same action that you claim to hate from “the liberal media”. How you can’t see the hypocrisy in that is beyond me. Your goal isn’t truth…it is spin. I have no doubt that you would be ultimately happy if all media was controlled to edit out every death or explosion and ONLY focus in on candle lightings and smiling children…even if a dead soldier is 3 feet away.

To have any base in morality, your goal should simply be truth, not spin and hype. Again, this was quite CHEESETASTIC. Hell, I think someone needs to add that to an urban dictionary.[/quote]

Ok prof… so next time 100meters or someone post how 50 people were killed in a car bomb in iraq, we can entirely dismiss the thread as spin unless the also include a positive fact from over there as well, like say womens rights is advancing very rapidly? Is this what your saying because over 100 negative posts have been written by your buddies in the near past and not once have you expressed this idea in one of thier post. Just wondering was this like a preminition you recently had or are you just spinning in your own way, trying to discredit the good news for the fact not that it is false, but that it is only presented as good news and not along with the bad news. However, the bad news can stand alone, and it’s not spin? Wow , fooled me there, didn’t see through that at all.

V

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[quote]vroom wrote:
I see you are once again resorting to name calling. I thoughty you gave that up?

I’m afraid I have a weakness Zeb, I sink to the level of those I converse with at times…

Forgive me brother.[/quote]

Right because your very first post on this thread you called lothario a conspiracy freak… Vroom, admit it… you have a name calling problem and you should go to the bathroom, place a bar of ivory soap in your mouth and sit there for 10 minutes. Bad Vroomy.

V

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[quote]vroom wrote:
Loth, I think you gave the thread it’s title… :wink:

Y’know, as per Vag’s little estro outburst, I probably wouldn’t have replied at all if you simply started pointing to good news, instead of outlining a massive world conspiracy to hide it.

Point it out! Bring it on! It’s out there… no doubt about it. If you think I’m against the good news, or that I don’t think good things are happening, you simply haven’t been paying attention.[/quote]

below is vrooms reply to me just a little while ago… notice how when I substitute my name for his it fits perfectly in context as if loth were responding to him*

Vroom, you fucking tard, I was offering a plausible explanation for why news organizations would focus on the crap.

Take your blinders off and learn to read.

V

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[quote]Vegita wrote:
Ok prof… so next time 100meters or someone post how 50 people were killed in a car bomb in iraq, we can entirely dismiss the thread as spin unless the also include a positive fact from over there as well, like say womens rights is advancing very rapidly? [/quote]

Proof positive that you even ignored what Vroom has written. “Womens rights is advancing very rapidly” is a blurb. It is a factoid with no substance, and if given for the soul purpose of trying to make it look rosy over there with no info about how, what, where or when they are advancing rapidly and if this is on course with the original goal in Iraq, then it is useless info.

“50 People got killed in a car bomb” is also useless unless who the people are is a detail given along with where and by whom. Again, the goal should be truth, not factoids in either direction. If you had actually read the posts in this thread, you would have known that.

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[quote]Professor X wrote:
Vegita wrote:
Ok prof… so next time 100meters or someone post how 50 people were killed in a car bomb in iraq, we can entirely dismiss the thread as spin unless the also include a positive fact from over there as well, like say womens rights is advancing very rapidly?

Proof positive that you even ignored what Vroom has written. “Womens rights is advancing very rapidly” is a blurb. It is a factoid with no substance, and if given for the soul purpose of trying to make it look rosy over there with no info about how, what, where or when they are advancing rapidly and if this is on course with the original goal in Iraq, then it is useless info.

“50 People got killed in a car bomb” is also useless unless who the people are is a detail given along with where and by whom. Again, the goal should be truth, not factoids in either direction. If you had actually read the posts in this thread, you would have known that.
[/quote]

I was paraphrasing, sorry for not using a better example. You dodged the whole premise of my question to you only to attack a tiny aspect of it that was a paraphrased example? So you gonna answer the question or no?

V

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[quote]Vegita wrote:

I was paraphrasing, sorry for not using a better example. You dodged the whole premise of my question to you only to attack a tiny aspect of it that was a paraphrased example? So you gonna answer the question or no?

V[/quote]

What? I did answer the question. You just didn’t hear what you wanted to hear. I’m sorry if I’m not gullible as to not think ahead of what you were getting at.

You asked, "so next time 100meters or someone post how 50 people were killed in a car bomb in iraq, we can entirely dismiss the thread as spin unless the also include a positive fact from over there as well, like say womens rights is advancing very rapidly?

This is retarded logic. I just wrote in my last response to you that a baseless factoid is useless info from either side. That IS the answer. Why would you dismiss a story with facts supporting it just because it is either positive or negative? Quit trying so hard. I knew which way you were going with this the first time.

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[quote]Professor X wrote:
hedo wrote:

Perhaps you’ll pose a topic one day?

I have…but you knew that, right?[/quote]

No great one…I didn’t that’s why I asked the question.

Most of your posts belittle others, defend something else you said, or mock the fact someone else has an opposing thought.

Good day.

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[quote]Professor X wrote:

Bullshit. The educated understand that the truth involves good and bad. The educated also understand that the rest of the world will judge us based on the overall effect as well as the negatives. How retarded is the basic concept of this thread? Let’s not point out the truth…let’s only try to find as much positive info so that we can make things look better.

The goal should be to understand what is truly happening. If 50 men got killed, admit that 50 men got killed and pray for their families. You can mention every school built and water system engaged, but don’t be so ridiculous and biased as to ignore the fact that 50 men got killed. In the grand scheme of things, I think it is safe to say that on 9/11, not one American gave a damn about schools in Iraq.

The thread is Cheesetastic.[/quote]

Here is your first post in this thread, you don’t mention anything about posting factoids you only discredit the post as spin because there is no balance of bad news along with it. We all know there is bad news, we get bombarded with it every day. So no… you didn’t answer my question and I actually agree with the point that you made, an iraqi girl giving a soldier a flower while cute doesn’t mean shit as to how things are going.

But turning on electricity, putting in sewer, building and opening schools and hospitals is solid progress. These are the things that will directly win the hearts and minds of the iraqis. This is the battle we fight, we will never win the battle against the insurgency unless we stop them from wanting to kill us. The more good we do for the people of iraq, the better the cances that thier sons will see us for what we really are. I also agree with the fact that there is still a real lot of work to do… but there has also been a lot of work done and improvements done, but most people don’t know that.

V

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Read a ‘Bright Shining Lie’ by Lt. Col. John Paul Vann to draw some parallels about painting a rosy picture for years on end when the reality doesn’t quite match up.

What I want is the truth of the situation whoever is willing to give it. Whether that be fifty schools were built in one day are fifty people killed in suicide attacks in one day.

What I want is an accurate picture of the whole damned scope of things and what we could expect in the way of bringing our troops home because the mission is indeed accomplished. Not we are building a school here and there and have restored electricity to five city blocks that we bombed the hell out of.

If the insurgents are losing and hospitals and schools are being built and the Iraqi Army is kicking ass fine. If that’s the truth, fill the newspapers with this info every damn day, if it’s the truth!

Conversely if the insurgents show no sign of weakening and the death toll keeps rising and car bombs are rampant tell us report it everyday. We ProfX, Vroom, Zap Brannigan, Hedo, I would hope Thunder. damn better be Ranger, and others want the truth.

If the insurgents laid down their arms tomorrow and Iraq turned into a bastion of democracy and freedom even though I don’t care for the current administration I wouldn’t be disappointed about this.

Again, conversely if this dragged on for ten more years and some of your sons and daughters were going to be sent over there and die with no end in sight wouldn’t you want the truth?