Somethign else that i think is worth adding here. Lyle McDonald is big on the refeed idea, and i think he recommends something like taking 2 entire weeks off of dieting (not cheating the whole time, maintenence calories more like) for every 4 weeks on. I think duchaine said this too. I think this could be a relatively painless way for those who dont’ compete to get lean and retain alot of mass efficiently.
Joel, I wanted to say that I’m very impressed by the way you’ve handled yourself throughout this somewhat circuitous debate. I have infinitely more respect for you now and I wish you all the success in the future. I was wondering if you could repost the link to your website…I tried the search function but could not locate it. Once again, thanks and keep working hard.
I thought it was pretty interesting to read (Lyle’s thoughts). What’s funny is that I never read anything about leptin before I started doing the research for this article and found tons of information in journal articles and abstracts by just typing in “endocrine + overfeeding” and “endocrine + underfeeding” into the medline search engine. I got all my info from journals and abstracts- I didn’t even know other people had touched on the subject until just a few hours ago when I did a search on google for “Lyle McDonald + leptin.”
If you are using Mag-10 or a anabolic steroid stack, go right ahead and jump to 1500-2000 calories below maintenance (follow the guidelines in the article). On your first week, you may want to give your body an extra day to adapt, so have your first cheat on Thursday evening as opposed to Wednesday. After that, the Wednesday and Sunday protocols will work for most. Every fourth evening is also an option; play around with it.
After doing some more research, its seems that higher GI carbs are fine during the refeeds. Bagels, low-fat poptarts, cereal, etc. are all fine choices due to extremely depleted glycogen stores.
I personally like theories when it comes to bodybuilding and nutrition; but I also like the facts, and I think Phil has some valid points. I myself have been shot down in flames by lecturers for flawed papers (bad references, misinterpreted etc.) and I could never understand why. Now I do… 
If what Joel is saying is true then that’s great (I’d give it a go any day), but it would be even better if someone could do a controlled study and prove it scientifically! I like to know the way things work, in theory and scientifically.
Congrats to everyone on the interesting thread.
I can see what MoonPie is doing here, and it is perfectly reasonable to extrapolate that exogenous leptin when administered to weight maintaining healthy individuals would cause fat loss IF high leptin levels correlated with low bodyfat in the general population surveyed.
However as we all know leptin is higher in obese individuals meaning that an above average level of leptin has no effect on body fat composition
But There IS evidence which points out that having a below average or minimal leptin level halts fat loss and that raising this level back up to normal results in body fat decrease (see the rat studies).
There is also evidence which points out that during a sever diet leptin takes a plunge into the unknown, putting the person in a similar state to the rats.
So in my opinion Joel has correctly interpreted the data, though MP Phil had a perfectly good case apart from the fact that he misunderstood the role of the hormone. I also agree that about half way down this thread you started coming off as an asshole Phil, though you were still making valid points as no-one had pointed the above out.
-eXp
Joel,
You did a great job. Don’t let that moonpie bastard get you down. You have the best proof of all–you actually did what you wrote about. That bastard is nothing but hot air. Or maybe he has a pix or two with the great physique he got from all those abstracts.
To anyone who read through the thread, it should be obvious that MP’s argument was flawed. I clearly stated in a prior post why the studies he presented can not be correlated to the situation at hand. More leptin wont do anything unless:
1. Your dealing with individuals who are senstive to the hormone.
2. Leptin levels are far below normal, as they are when severely dieting.
Bringing leptin levels back up to normal will ensure continual (as opposed to stagnating) fat loss- that's what we are doing with the overfeeds.
Please email me and I will send you the Poliquin column.
Joel I was wondering if I started the hypocaloric diet how many days should I take before the FIRST cheat? I understand the protocol there after, but was wondering if the first cheat should farther out. Thanx and for the record most anyone who wants to can go get a Doctorate! It all depends on if one would want to spend the time and money. So don’t toot your horn like you’re someone special.
Frontload with Mag10 starting on Sunday night and then go right into the severe diet on monday. In the article, I stated that you may want to skip the initial cheat on wednesday and have your first cheat on sunday to ensure that your body has adapted to the severe caloric restriction. However, I think you’ll be fine if you choose to have your first cheat on thursday evening. After that, most should be fine by going with the Sunday/Wednesday protocol; you may find that continuing with Sunday/Thursday works better for you.
Joel, I just wanted to say that I enjoyed your article and think you may be on to something even though I have not had a chance to check out your references closely (I am in Pharmacy school now which basically takes up all my time). I have had similar experiences while dieting. I will do great for a couple weeks then my metabolism hits the skids and my appetite goes through the roof and I go on a binge. As long as I go back to eating clean relatively soon after the refeeding it seems to keep me on track in the fat loss department (as well as muscle gain) and keep me out of the dieting rut. I have done a lot of research on leptin lately and I think it may play a role, but the data is far from conclusive. Don’t let MoonpiePhil get you down. I argued with him before and he will just drain you mentally because of his knowledge and experience in the scientific community. I like you do not have a Doctorate yet, but I am working on my Doctor of Pharmacy degree. I have a B.S. in nutrition and I love nutritional endocrinology. I would like to discuss this topic with you in the future when I have more time (like after finals:).
For those of you who do not think leptin works in humans (which it usually does not becasue of leptin resistance) check out the research on the drug AXOKINE at regeneron.com. It works through the same biochemical pathway as leptin and causes profound weight loss in HUMANS (even leptin resistance ones)!!!
Joel, the last time I checked you were getting exactly nothing in the way of compensation for your efforts on this board. I hope you are not “run off” the boards like other T-mag contributers were.
BTW way, don’t worry about people disparaging you physique. If you have noticed the only people who do this remain anonymous and never post their own pics. Funny that.
I have a couple of questions I hope you could help me with.
What if someone is on a more moderate calorie reduction (~500 calories/day). One would likely implement a cheat meal rather than cheat session but how frequently would you suggest this? Since the rate of glycogen depletion is slower, would you suggest every fourth day? Longer?
Also, you don’t seem to recommend thermogenics except before HIIT sessons. Why is this?
Thanks in advance!
Ken, thanks. Feel free to drop me an email anytime.
I’ll respond to you later tonight, I have some thoughts but need to head out at the momment.
Recent research seems to suggest that acute caffeine usage does not share the adverse effects associated with both short (as little as 3 days) and long-term usage (see my 17th last reference in the article). Since decreased insulin sensitivity is def. an issue with prolonged usage, and that’s not something that is desirable with your cheating and refilling glycogen stores with tons of carbs; thus the reasoning for only using them pre HIIT to maximize the fat burning effect of these session.
The other part of your question will be addressed in a seperate thread; check it out.