Joel,
Let met get this straight. You write for Testosterone/Biotest and yet you don’t use their products, and then you suggest to the forum readers that they use EAS products. Maybe you should write for Muscle Media.
I never once suggested that any use an EAS product. I simply posted a day from my dietary log as a few individuals asked me to do. I get Myoplex for FREE- did you read that part? That’s why I use it; it costs me nothing…I bet you used it to if that was the case.
Secondly, did you read the article? This program is a program to use with Mag-10; that's a Biotest product last time I checked. Mag-10 is the only legal product I would recommend; I wouldn't recommend any other company's prohormone product. This is getting ridiculous.
Moonpie Phil- Your maturity level is obvious. I’m glad you feel the need to personally attack me in your posts- continue to laugh while others get results. And yes, you are correct, Leptin was fully understood and forgotten about years ago; that’s why my previous reference was published in 2001, such a long time ago. Also, we are talking about a dietary induced leptin spike when severe dieting; not an intravenous synthenic one where people are consuming their normal diets and living their sedentary lifestyles.
Subby, Mr. Sparkle, Professor X, Steve M, Johnny Boy, Don Alessi, Scot Abel, and Charles Poliquin- you guys don't know what the hell you are talking about; you and/or your clients never got leaner by overfeeding. It's all a big lie; come on now- fess up.
Hey Joel, what thermo products do you like to use while training for fat loss?
Don’t worry Joel, most of us still love you.
XXX. lol.
I’m sure in your mind synthetic and natural leptin are different but the molecules are exactly the same. Here is an abstract using men that were in a hypocaloric state while being administered leptin and uh oh…after 12 weeks, nada. But I suppose your 36 hour elevation is going to do the job right?
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000 Nov;85(11):4003-9
Weekly subcutaneous pegylated recombinant native human leptin (PEG-OB) administration in obese men.
Hukshorn CJ, Saris WH, Westerterp-Plantenga MS, Farid AR, Smith FJ, Campfield LA.
Nutrition and Toxicology Research Center, NUTRIM, University of Maastricht, The Netherlands.
To assess the biological activity and tolerability of pegylated recombinant native human leptin (PEG-OB), 30 obese men (mean body mass index, 33.9 kg/m2) were randomized to a double-blind treatment with weekly sc injections of 20 mg PEG-OB or placebo for 12 weeks, in addition to a hypocaloric diet (deficit, 2 MJ/day). Body composition, energy expenditure, and metabolic parameters were measured before and after treatment. PEG-OB was generally well tolerated based on adverse event reports, lab values, and vital signs. Weekly sc PEG-OB led to sustained serum concentrations of PEG-OB and leptin throughout treatment. No significant differences in the delta or percent weight loss, percent body fat, sleeping metabolic rate, or respiratory quotient were observed between the PEG-OB and placebo groups. Percent change in serum triglycerides from baseline was significantly correlated with body weight loss in the PEG-OB group, but not in the placebo group. Although larger reductions in serum triglycerides were observed in the PEG-OB group compared with the placebo group, these differences were not statistically significant. We concluded that weekly injection of PEG-OB leads to sustained serum concentration of PEG-OB and leptin throughout the 12-week treatment period and is generally well tolerated. The trends observed in serum triglycerides suggest that a weekly 20-mg sc treatment with PEG-OB may have biological effects in obese men.
Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Multicenter Study
Randomized Controlled Trial
Phil:
Would you just stop, please! Don?t you realize that you?re trying to argue science, but coming across as a jerk? It?s a great thread except for your ?dis?ing? and negativism. Without exception, you?re trying trying to slap Joel around, embarrass him, call him a liar, prove him wrong, and everyone else is telling him what a great article he?s written and how well cheat meals have worked for them. You?re out of step, even if somehow you would be scientifically correct.
Joel, please, just ignore this guy.
On the one hand we have Joel who has taken untold hours to research and write an article in hopes of helping the many loyal T-Mag readers achieve their goals. He walks the talk. He diets. He had a low BF percentage to begin with and has taken it even lower. He works out . . . HARD! Additionally, Joel has been generous with his knowledge on the forum, helping others, answering questions and providing encouragement. I?m sure he does the same as a personal trainer, giving far more of his time than he?s paid for.
On the other hand we have you, Phil. How many articles have you written to help T-Mag readers achieve their goals of building mass or dropping body fat? How much help and encouragement do you provide on the forum? And, since you?re so busy slapping Joel around, can I assume that you work out harder, smarter and have a lower BF percentage?
Don?t get me wrong, Phil. I love the science of exercise and the biochemestry of nutrition and physiology. I appreciate that which is clinically proven. I like facts and proof (except for the fact that on any given topic, people and scientists will disagree). But even more, I like a kinder, gentler world where people treat each other with respect. There?s nothing wrong with a healthy debate. But put some of that energy you have into writing your own article, one that will help people. I?m sure you?re smart enough, what with that doctorate of yours and all.
Eur J Pharmacol 2002 Apr 12;440(2-3):129-39
Leptin and the treatment of obesity: its current status.
Lee DW, Leinung MC, Rozhavskaya-Arena M, Grasso P.
Department of Medicine, Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Albany Medical College, MC-141, NY 12208, USA.
Leptin, the protein product of the ob gene, is primarily an adipocyte-secreted hormone, whose functional significance is rapidly expanding. Although early research efforts were focused on defining leptin’s role in reversing obesity in rodents, there is now substantial evidence indicating that its influence extends to several hypothalamic-pituitary-endocrine axes, including gonadal, adrenal, thyroid, growth hormone, and pancreatic islets. A role for leptin in hematopoiesis, angiogenesis, immune function, osteogenesis, and wound healing has also been documented. The results of recent clinical trials with recombinant human leptin indicated that its effectiveness in restoring energy balance and correcting obesity-related endocrinopathies in genetically obese rodent models extended only partially to the management of human obesity. New efforts in drug development have focused on leptin-related synthetic peptide agonists as potential anti-obesity pharmacophores.
I side w/ Joel on this one. I always take real-life results over paper. Good job JM and keep it up man.
Moonpie, what about the BBB (blood brain barrier)? It has been written about much over the last few years by Lyle McDonald and Elzi Volk.
Moonpie and “leptin sucks”- thanks for the references in which leptin was administered to long term obese individuals who are probably already leptin resistant due to chronically high levels of leptin. It’s like giving insulin shots to type II diabetics and then concluding from that data that timed insulin spikes are not beneficial to the bodybuilder.
I still got a stockpile of MD6, so I’m using that pre HIIT only. If you don’t have access to it, (here we go again) try using EAS BetaLean HP with added Yohimbine. I dont suggest it because of any EAS ties, I simply suggest it because its the next best product on the market (Green Tea, Caffeine, Ephendra). I’m always real when people ask for my opinions, and if I think a product is a good one I’ll tell you. If it sucks, I’ll tell you straight up- regardless of the manufacturer.
Joel is right on this one. I’ve talked w/ Lyle McDonald extensively about refeeds and leptin. The studies on subjects eating maintenance calories then overeating aren’t relevent to those eating a hypocaloric diet then refeeding. In addition, leptin administration in the obese does not work b/c they are often leptin resistant or have plently of leptin circulating from a higher % bodyfat. As bodyfat is lost leptin becomes depleted, this is when taking leptin or refeeding will provide a benefit. Look at the studies in lean individuals, leptin has a profound impact. Lyle showed me a study where lean individuals were administered leptin and their hormones, metabolic rate, etc. returned to normal and fat loss continued.
Beyond that, i’m all for reading medline and having the science to back up a given approach, but real world results win out and this plan simply works. I couldnt believe when I read this article b/c its almost EXACTLY what i’ve been doing for the last few weeks, and its been working better than any other plan i’ve ever followed. A ketogenic diet should be perfect b/c of the research to support it, but it didn’t work for everyone in the real world, including myself. New research has shownt that in addition, its only protein sparing within certain bodyfat %'s, once you get lean enough there’s no greater advantage vs. many other diets.
Mr. Moonpie,
I’m glad you have taken a professional interest in the subjects being debated here. However, science is only part of the ballgame… you know this just as well as any of us. Unless you were to apply every variable Joel has discussed to a real-world T Man situation, someone who generally eats a very structured and planned out diet, who has an above average level of muscle mass, whose training regimen is far beyond what most ‘average’ humans participate in, then you cannot really refute his ideas in the face of the real-life experience that has said it DOES work (for some people, in some situations).
I respect your skepticism, but at the same time thousands of doctorates will not be what makes this world a better place. I would venture to guess doctorates recommended many of the ‘typical’ dietary guidelines too.
At the risk of being a ‘laughingstock’ of your department, why not place yourself in the ‘adventurous’ t-man mode and experiment on yourself with these concepts? Maybe even try to find a why to explain WHY they DO work instead of concerning yourself with finding reasons why it shouldn’t?
-franks
Moonpie, I’ll let you in on a little secret, nobody is reading your posts anymore, and we also think you’re pretty thick headed for someone with a doctorate. Why? because 1) the purpose of this thread is for Joel to help people iron out the details of this diet for those that want to use it, its not some personal arena for you to use your mastery of all things nutrition to disprove some studies. 2)Nobody even cares if you find a study that disproves Joel’s studies. This is because we have anectdotal evidence from a number of people (including myself) who have realized that when you refeed frequently during a diet, the diet is more successful. This is a fact. Whether its totally mental or not I don’t care it helps. So what we’re trying to do is find out how to use refeed’s most efficiently here. Stop taking up space cause like i said, we ain’t readin. If you wanna have a little study debate, then why don’t you email joel like he suggested? Or better yet, since its been established that refeeds aid in dieting, why don’t you use you powers of intelect to figure out what the reason behind this is and help our cause instead of just harping on some studies you found that say thermogenisis only lasts till the end of the refeed.
TO Joel: Great article. I really enjoyed it. Also I think i speak for everyone when i thank you very deeply for actually coming on the boards and helping us fine tune our own diets. My question is this...when you began your diet you were already at 9%. If someone were to start at a higher bf, say 12 or so, would you still recommend refeeding twice a week, or would it be beneficial to stick to once a week untill you get leaner? Also, have you used ALA during cheat sessions? i think they may help quite a bit. Also, and this is just my personal expirience, I've found when the calories above maintenince come mainly from carbs, protein second, and minimal fats (mostly efa's) they seem to be most effective. I'm guessing this is because w/ ala carbs tend to refill glycogen, and protein aids in the thermic effect of food the most, while fats aren't quite as helpful there. What do you think? thanks again.
Could someone please indicate where the obese men are in this study? This was leptin administration in never obese, normal weight men, but somehow…gasp, they didn’t find leptin had any significant effect.
Obes Res 2001 Aug;9(8):462-9 The effects of leptin administration in non-obese human subjects. Mackintosh RM, Hirsch J. OBJECTIVE: Body fatness is partly under hypothalamic control with effector limbs that include the endocrine system and the autonomic nervous system (ANS). In previous studies of both obese and never-obese subjects, we have shown that weight increase leads to increased sympathetic and decreased parasympathetic activity, whereas weight decrease leads to decreased sympathetic and increased parasympathetic activity. We now report on the effect of leptin, independent of weight change, on the ANS. RESEARCH METHODS AND PROCEDURES: Normal weight males (ages 20-40 years) were fed a solid food diet, measured carefully to maintain body weight, for 3 weeks, as inpatients at the Rockefeller University General Clinical Research Center. In a single-blind, 22-day, placebo/drug/placebo design, six subjects received leptin 0.3 mg/kilogram subcutaneously for 6 days. ANS measures of amount of parasympathetic control and sympathetic control of heart period (interbeat interval) were made by sequential pharmacological blockade with intravenous atropine and esmolol. Norepinephrine, dopamine, and epinephrine levels in 24-hour urine collections were also measured as well as resting metabolic rate. RESULTS: Sufficient food intake maintained constant body weight in all subjects. There was no evidence that leptin administration led to changes in energy metabolism sufficient to require additional food intake or to alter resting metabolic rate. Likewise, leptin administration did not alter autonomic activity. Parasympathetic control and sympathetic control, as well as the urinary catecholamines, were not significantly affected by leptin administration. Glucose and insulin levels were increased by food intake as expected, but leptin had no affect on these levels before or after food intake. DISCUSSION: ANS responses to changes in energy metabolism found when food intake and body weight are altered were not found in these never-obese subjects given leptin for 6 days. Although exogenous leptin administration has profound effects on food intake and energy metabolism in animals genetically deprived of leptin, we found it to have no demonstrable effect on energy metabolism in never-obese humans. The effects of longer periods of administration to obese individuals and to those who have lost weight demand additional investigation.
Way to post another study where individuals were consuming their normal diets before the test period; then while the leptin was being administered, subject were made sure to be consuming maintenance levels of calories- this was a MUST in the study you posted. Exercise protcols (if any were applied) were not mentioned; and subjects were not consuming a hypocaloric diet. It’s relavence to the argument is 0.
Just curious. Why are you and your doctorated so threatened by Joel’s article. Does it refute some body of work that you are trying to publish? Are you one of Joel’s professors and Joel stepped on your toes?
Most of us could care less about your various degree's and studies. If you really want to get our attention post a pic of yourself in th photo gallery with you stats, height, weight, BF%. Let us see the how your vast knowledge has influenced your physique.Then mayb we will give a crap. I Myself, i have used Joel's expertise with good results, so I will continue to listen to what he has to say.
I demonstrated both scenarious to you and yet you don’t seem to be able to comprehend this…I guess that’s what I should expect from a person in your standing. Ever heard of deductions…and I’m not talking about the kind you employ. You throw in other variables which wouldn’t have any effect on outcome of the main substance we’re looking at.
I’m Joel marion, don’t you know?! I’m a genius and weigh 180 pounds dude! I transformed my body gaining 20 lbs so this means I know all there is to know and automatically gives me a doctorate and the ability to decipher complex texts. I think I know what I’m talking about but really don’t, but that doesn’t matter cuz I’m the all-knowing expert on every last thing in the world. Is there anything I don’t know? Man, I’m gonna be in the Mr. Olympia next year…I’m so huge and dude, I have so much knowledge, I’d blow your mind dude.
JM (This means I’m extra cool cuz I sign my initials at the end)