Che Guevara T-shirts

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

Oh stop. He was no more murderous and kniving then our own CIA was (or is). Those were bad times, and both sides have blood on their hands.

I think his philosophies were misguided, but I admire any man that gives up everything to fight for a cause.

I half-expected a relativistic apologist to step forward and claim Che was not as bad as advertised, despite the atrocities committed by him and him alone.

What next - Hitler not that bad because the trains ran on time under him and he was kind to animals?

No, Che is surrounded by the romantic Left who can - miraculously - lionize his self-sacrifice to pursue his goals of murder, mayhem, and totalitarianism. How that makes him a hero I’ll never understand, but then, naive Leftists are not world renowned for making sense.

It is no thing to cheer that Che saw something bad and replaced it with something far worse.

Irish, Che was a butcher, an enemy to humanism, an oppressor of civil liberties, and ultimately a coward, asking for the kind of mercy he denied his victims - and none of that would change, even if he rescued orphans from a burning orphanage at some point in his life.[/quote]

I’m not apologizing for him, I’m saying he was as brutal as our own people were. The CIA and FBI in the 1960s were oppressive, purveyed murder, mayhem, assasinations, and certainly were no friends to “Democracy”.

Do you have sources for all of this? I know you don’t like him, and I’ve read about the executions that he carried out when he was heading the prison in Cuba. However, I want to see some of the shit that you’re reading so I have a better idea.

I cannot stand behind his legend because I am not a Communist, and don’t believe in his ideas, so I won’t defend him.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
I assume you mean Castro’s nemesis prior to the Cuban Revolution?
[/quote]

Yes, Fulgencio Batista.

[quote]
Mixed opinion - why, are his t-shirts the next big thing?[/quote]

Purely out of curiosity.

Irish,

I have read mostly in hardcopy, but here is a quick bit:

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Here are the really good Che shirts:

http://thoseshirts.com/anticheshirts.html

And here’s a good article on Che:

I want to get the one that says " this shirt brought to you by capitalism"

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

Oh stop. He was no more murderous and kniving then our own CIA was (or is). Those were bad times, and both sides have blood on their hands.

I think his philosophies were misguided, but I admire any man that gives up everything to fight for a cause.

I half-expected a relativistic apologist to step forward and claim Che was not as bad as advertised, despite the atrocities committed by him and him alone.

What next - Hitler not that bad because the trains ran on time under him and he was kind to animals?

No, Che is surrounded by the romantic Left who can - miraculously - lionize his self-sacrifice to pursue his goals of murder, mayhem, and totalitarianism. How that makes him a hero I’ll never understand, but then, naive Leftists are not world renowned for making sense.

It is no thing to cheer that Che saw something bad and replaced it with something far worse.

Irish, Che was a butcher, an enemy to humanism, an oppressor of civil liberties, and ultimately a coward, asking for the kind of mercy he denied his victims - and none of that would change, even if he rescued orphans from a burning orphanage at some point in his life.[/quote]

You’re not mentioned in the bible. So I guess it’s not up to you to decide who goes to hell and who doesn’t.

They’re rebels without a clue.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

Irish, Che was a butcher, an enemy to humanism, an oppressor of civil liberties, and ultimately a coward, asking for the kind of mercy he denied his victims - and none of that would change, even if he rescued orphans from a burning orphanage at some point in his life.[/quote]

You forgot utter failure. Cuba, his one, “success” was won on Castro’s coattails and is now a toilet that people drown trying to get away from.

You guys are right. Che Guevara was an animal for leading the fight against opression at the hands of fascist dictators and the exploitation of poor people by dispicable corporations. If we all had guts comparable to his maybe we wouldn’t sit idly by while the world is raped and pillaged and power is consolidated by a few greed maggots. But we don’t so lets see whats on tv.

[quote]paul bunyan wrote:
You guys are right. Che Guevara was an animal for leading the fight against opression at the hands of fascist dictators and the exploitation of poor people by dispicable corporations. If we all had guts comparable to his maybe we wouldn’t sit idly by while the world is raped and pillaged and power is consolidated by a few greed maggots. But we don’t so lets see whats on tv. [/quote]

For you pauly, from thurnderbolt’s link. You have trouble reading this or just understanding it?

"Ch?'s Repression
He was more than just a guerilla and fiery orator, but also a leader at the helm of the new communist government in Cuba. Ch? and Castro were the chief engineers of this new social experiment. While Ch? held many formal positions, from the head of the central bank, to manager of Cuba 's central planning committee, he was most importantly Castro’s unofficial right-hand man and most enthusiastic advocate.

As soon as Ch? and Castro took power in Cuba, they began to break the promises that had fueled the rebellion against the Batista regime. By June of 1959, just 6 months after the rebel victory over Batista, Castro announced that elections would be postponed indefinitely. When asked why, he simply quipped ?Elections? What for?? At the same time, and as always with Ch?'s backing, he suspended the 1940 constitution which guaranteed many fundamental rights. The French writer Jeannine Verd?s-Laroux commented ?the totalitarian nature of the regime was inscribed there from the very beginning.? In the years following the revolution new laws banned the freedom of association, the right to free speech and the free press would be abolished, replaced by strict speed codes and a party run press directed from the top. The new regime also deported dissidents and priests, closed colleges and spied on students, and persecuted artists and Christians. The functionality and power of formerly independent unions were taken over by the ministry of labor while the government seized massive amount of private property without regard for property rights. The once independent judiciary was put under control of the executive. On May Day in 1960 Castro announced there would be no elections in Cuba ?ever. Castro and Ch? were now full-fledged tyrants, capable of ruling by decree. This led way to their ability to set up forced labor camps, similar to those used by the Soviets and Nazis.

Various groups have estimated that Cuba held between 15,000 and 500,000 or so political prisoners between 1959 and the 1980s and murdered about 20,000 Cubans. To this day no one knows the exact figure however, because of the regime continues to restrict the flow of information in and out of the country. This is the ?social justice? Ch? helped bring to Cuba.

Ch? the Mass Murder
For a man who claimed to be liberating the peasants of Latin America, Ch? spent an awful lot of his time obliterating them. From very early on he had learned the value of violence to maintain order and consolidate power. As part of a rebel detachment fighting the Batista regime in Cuba, Ch? had a child who had stolen some food immediately executed without trial. After the 1959 rebel victory in Cuba over the Batista regime, various foreign presses reported that over 600 Batista supporters were killed in mass executions. Ch? was later made the supreme prosecutor of the new state’s ?cleaning commission? and sent hundreds to their deaths at La Caba?a prison while Fidel Castro 's brother and Ch? comrade Ra?l Castro rounded up POWs and massacred them. Historian Jorge Casta?eda charges that these executions ?were carried out without respect for due process? The Cuban human rights activist Armando Valladares who was imprisoned at the La Cabana prison claims that Ch? took ?personal interest? in the torture and execution of some political prisoners.

While many of the anti-Batista revolutionaries favored democratic socialism or western democracy, Ch? and Castro favored Soviet-style communism. After the revolution toppled the Batista regime, the jockeying for power began. Ch? was vicious in his strategy against the democrats, deporting them, jailing them, sending them to concentration camps and executing them. In Ch?'s Cuba you could be put up against the wall simply for passing out anti-communist literature, a tactic Che referred to as ?justice at the service of future justice? Regis D?bray, Ch?'s Bolivian companion described him as ?an authoritarian through and through?

Ch? was ambitious however, and thusly desired to obliterate more than just his political rivals and own innocent people. During the Cuban missile crisis, he demanded that nuclear war be unleashed on the United States . He told British reporter Sam Russell that ?if the [nuclear] missiles had been under Cuban control [during the Cuban missile crisis], they would have fired them off.? Reportedly, he was disappointed when Khrushchev decided to draw back his weapons in the missile crisis. "If the weapons had been left, we would have used them against the heart of the USA" he remarked.

Creating a Just Society
Historical analysis shows that Ch? was instrumental in setting up the Cuban concentration camps, hence the Nazi SS Death’s Head skull which adorns the beret of the Che figure on the cover of this magazine. The corrective work camps housed both political dissidents and so-called social ?deviants? such as homosexuals and other social outcasts. Samuel Farber, a writer raised in Cuba contends that ?Ch? Guevara played a key role in inaugurating a tradition of arbitrary administrative, non-judicial detentions [concentration camps]?for the confinement of dissidents and social ?deviants.'? Che comrades like Regis D?bray admit Ch? was the engine behind the idea. One of Ch?'s chief policies for the new Cuba included sending ?people who have committed crimes against revolutionary morals? to the forced labor camps to be re-educated.

It was Ch?'s hatred of the individual that led him to squeeze out any semblance of independent thought from Cuba . He trusted in the collective: collective redistribution, or socialism and collective justice, or social justice. In a July 1960 speech, Ch? told a crowd of students and workers that ?individualism? must disappear in Cuba ? saying that the proper ?utilization? of the individual is for the ?absolute benefit of the community.? Men were mere components in Ch?'s socialist nightmare. It was this attitude that lead Ch? to lash out against all and any who disagreed with his orthodoxy and his vision of a socialist super state which would ensure social justice for all and freedom for none. He wasn’t just socializing the economy. He was socializing the people.

Ch?'s new order required indoctrinating Cuban society according to his vision of ?revolutionary morality?. This new morality transformed individual Cubans into what he called the ?new man?, mere vessels of the collective, devices under absolute control, working in the absolute interest the state. In this way the state could control the minds of Cubans and target them absolutely in one direction and at one enemy. Like Hitler, Ch? used hatred to focus the energies of the masses. "Hatred as an element of struggle? Ch? remarked in his essay Two, Three, Many Vietnams, ?unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine [emphasis mine]? This is ultimately what Ch?advocated, the creation of an organic machine, filled with killers and under his control, bringing his brand of social justice to the world.

His Legacy
Ch?'s legacy is one of repression, terror, murder and destruction. One in which children lost their parents, patriots lost their country and tens of thousands lost their lives. Yet so many who claim to be supporters of peace seem are so enthralled with the cult of Ch?. So what makes his life and actions so compelling?

Ch? is a hero to the statist left, not in spite of what he did, but because of it. Because he implemented the ultimate form of social collectivism. What Ch? represents is what the statists are really seeking: unyielding control over the destiny of others, the economic and political livelihoods of America 's citizens. The right and the ability to implement social justice as they see fit. This is what his image represents and this is what the statists desire. He was a man who got things done, who not only advocated but implemented.

Ch? represents the next step for the statist activists, from ideas to actions. He is the manifestation of their rebellion, rebellion against individualism, diversity, capitalism, freedom. But real rebels do not support centralized state authority. They do not support collectivism. They fight it. Real rebels don’t worship a cult of personality. Real rebels crash it. Those who worship Ch? aren’t rebels or peace activists. They are dupes furthering the destructive legacy of collectivism and the mayhem it has wrought the world over. "

.

It’s probably because the shirt looks badass.

Sure he was a terrorist dick, but if you look cool anyone will wear you on a shirt.

Chucky,

I’m not saying he was a saint. But Ch? and Castro inherited a whorehouse.
I know your propaganda machine doesn’t agree, but Cuba is doing ok. The population is educated and well fed. Their living conditions have improved since Batista. Childdeath rate is low and they have a longer life expectency.

Oh, the horror ! ! !

And they have been able to keep a powerfull and hostile neighbour out.

[quote]Wreckless wrote:
Chucky,

I’m not saying he was a saint. But Ch? and Castro inherited a whorehouse.
I know your propaganda machine doesn’t agree, but Cuba is doing ok. The population is educated and well fed. Their living conditions have improved since Batista. Childdeath rate is low and they have a longer life expectency.

Oh, the horror ! ! !

And they have been able to keep a powerfull and hostile neighbour out.[/quote]

Are you kidding me, Cuba is ok?
Everyone I know that has been to Cuba talks about how miserable it is there! Well fed? I guess one pound of meat per month for each family would do good for you! for Christ’s sake, I heard women will screw you for a bar of soap, or a pair of Levis.
oh yea and I’m sure that the statistics that leave the island are 100% accurate, sure they have socialized medicine, but it certainly isnt free. Did you know that Cubans have to work “volunteer days” with no pay? and not just once a year, but several times a month.
If its such a great place, then why do most Cubans want to leave?

[quote]DR. J wrote:

Are you kidding me, Cuba is ok?
Everyone I know that has been to Cuba talks about how miserable it is there! Well fed? I guess one pound of meat per month for each family would do good for you! for Christ’s sake, I heard women will screw you for a bar of soap, or a pair of Levis.
oh yea and I’m sure that the statistics that leave the island are 100% accurate, sure they have socialized medicine, but it certainly isnt free. Did you know that Cubans have to work “volunteer days” with no pay? and not just once a year, but several times a month.
If its such a great place, then why do most Cubans want to leave?
[/quote]

Outside of the mild inconveniences of blinding poverty and the police state, Cuba is a paradise.

And, perhaps those Cubans attempting to swim to American shores are merely trying to get here to tell us all how great Cuba is.

[quote]DR. J wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Chucky,

I’m not saying he was a saint. But Ch? and Castro inherited a whorehouse.
I know your propaganda machine doesn’t agree, but Cuba is doing ok. The population is educated and well fed. Their living conditions have improved since Batista. Childdeath rate is low and they have a longer life expectency.

Oh, the horror ! ! !

And they have been able to keep a powerfull and hostile neighbour out.

Are you kidding me, Cuba is ok?
Everyone I know that has been to Cuba talks about how miserable it is there! Well fed? I guess one pound of meat per month for each family would do good for you! for Christ’s sake, I heard women will screw you for a bar of soap, or a pair of Levis.
oh yea and I’m sure that the statistics that leave the island are 100% accurate, sure they have socialized medicine, but it certainly isnt free. Did you know that Cubans have to work “volunteer days” with no pay? and not just once a year, but several times a month.
If its such a great place, then why do most Cubans want to leave?
[/quote]

Have you been to Cuba? I have, and the vast majority of people I interacted were far from “miserable”. I was shocked at how different the reality was from the propaganda we receive here.

[quote]Wreckless wrote:

And they have been able to keep a powerfull and hostile neighbour out.

[/quote]

They don’t have to keep us out, they keep coming here. I’m sure that 60 women and children sailing an old Chevy truck with barrels welded to it, weeping and crying when the Coast Gaurd turns them away, were just on their way to invite us to paradise.

[quote]Moriarty wrote:
DR. J wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
Chucky,

I’m not saying he was a saint. But Ch? and Castro inherited a whorehouse.
I know your propaganda machine doesn’t agree, but Cuba is doing ok. The population is educated and well fed. Their living conditions have improved since Batista. Childdeath rate is low and they have a longer life expectency.

Oh, the horror ! ! !

And they have been able to keep a powerfull and hostile neighbour out.

Are you kidding me, Cuba is ok?
Everyone I know that has been to Cuba talks about how miserable it is there! Well fed? I guess one pound of meat per month for each family would do good for you! for Christ’s sake, I heard women will screw you for a bar of soap, or a pair of Levis.
oh yea and I’m sure that the statistics that leave the island are 100% accurate, sure they have socialized medicine, but it certainly isnt free. Did you know that Cubans have to work “volunteer days” with no pay? and not just once a year, but several times a month.
If its such a great place, then why do most Cubans want to leave?

Have you been to Cuba? I have, and the vast majority of people I interacted were far from “miserable”. I was shocked at how different the reality was from the propaganda we receive here.[/quote]

No I havent been, but my info doesnt come from US “propaganda” I am originaly from El Salvador and I know many many people from EL Salvador, i.e.not americans who are “brainwashed”, who have gone to Cuba, even people who were hard core revolutionaries during the war in El Salvador say that they would want to live there. Yes if you compare it to other latin american countries, people do live better, everyone gets basic needs, no one goes hungry, but the great working class “paradise” comes at a great price I think.

And let me tell you, if you are an american and you come around asking questions, most of the people are not exactly going to give you honest answers. I have also heard from former comunists, trained in Cuba, that a lot of effort is made to keep up face, so that the great socialist revolution appears as such.

[quote]Moriarty wrote:

Have you been to Cuba? I have, and the vast majority of people I interacted were far from “miserable”. I was shocked at how different the reality was from the propaganda we receive here.[/quote]

I’m sure the Cuban immigrants dancing in the streets upon hearing the news of Castro’s power transfer are just wholly indoctrinated by our propaganda machine.

What, don’t you know about the legions of poor and discriminated-against in the U.S. who are boarding partially inflated tires to try to escape to the Cuban paradise? Must be that corporation-owned media keeping the true facts from the suppressed proletariat again…

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
What, don’t you know about the legions of poor and discriminated-against in the U.S. who are boarding partially inflated tires to try to escape to the Cuban paradise? Must be that corporation-owned media keeping the true facts from the suppressed proletariat again…[/quote]

that would probably the most hilarious way of overthrowing a regime ever, if Americans actually did that.

500 thousand Americans “fleeing” to Cuba demanding exile, food and social security.