Chavez: El Presidente for Life

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
121

[quote]orion wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:

hunters gatherers were not capitalists and i know you are smarter than that. they were hunting and gathering in order to provide for their community not to make a profit.

You are constantly changing the meaning of the word profit to suit your needs that is all.

prof·it (pr�?f’Ä­t) Pronunciation Key
n.

  1. An advantageous gain or return; benefit.
  2. The return received on a business undertaking after all operating expenses have been met.
    1. The return received on an investment after all charges have been paid. Often used in the plural.
    2. The rate of increase in the net worth of a business enterprise in a given accounting period.
    3. Income received from investments or property.
    4. The amount received for a commodity or service in excess of the original cost.

They invested in spears ,bows and arrows to hunt more efficiently.

These hunting tools are in no way different from a computer or truck, they were capital that made the “production” of consumer goods easier and they benefitted from it because the increase in efficiency was greater than the work that went into bow construction.

A classical case of capitalism and profit.

Profit is profit is profit.

Period.

i agree that those conquering empires committed horrible crimes but i still say that the U.S. empire is the most vast empire that has ever existed and like i said their crimes have reached every corner of the world. they have taken the tactics used by those ruthless empires and perfected them. the u.s. bombs innocent men, women, and children, they attack people with chemicals that affect populations long after they are first used. this kind of destruction has never been seen before

true

greed prevails because a capitalist system rewards greed. and this is why a new system has to be established, a system which rewards cooperation

A buyer and a seller must co-operate, allways. So capitalism is a system that rewards co-operation. When was the last time someone forced you to buy, rent or lease anything you did not want?

Seems like those evil co-operation cannot force you to do anything.[/quote]

if you cant diferentiate between what hunter gatheres where doing and what modern capitalists institutions are doing then there is something wrong with you. hunter gatherers were not thinking about accumulating capital and building coorporations and dominating the world wide economy.

in capitalism what is more rewarding a system of cooperation or instituting a monopoly?

technically we are not forced to do anything but when corporations take over the basic necesseties of human beings such as water, food, healthcare, what choice do we have?

under capitalism buyers and sellers do not cooperate. just ask farmers of third world countries who have the price of their product set by the buyer.

ask the people of third world countries that have to pay high prices for basic commodities. where is the cooperation between buyer and seller?

122

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
i still say that the U.S. empire is the most vast empire that has ever existed /quote]

Worse than the Soviet Union?

If the US is an empire, how many colonies do we have and where are they?[/quote]

puerto rico and pretty much most of latin america. but latin america is fighting back and they will be free soon.
the U.S. conquers countries through economic imperialism. and just recently they have invaded two countries by force: iraq and afghanistan.

not to mention that U.S. corporations exploit and plunder all over the world.

123

[quote]orion wrote:
Ok, the Romans had women raped by baboons,
[/quote]
…“You see, here in Germany we don’t have any apes.
I want to see a baboon fucking a woman” :slight_smile:

124

[quote]lixy wrote:
gladiatorsteer wrote:
how easy do you think it is for some one in poor country were they dont have money to build schools and buy books to “get an education and work harder”?

You don’t get it. Third world people are lazy bums and certainly not the victims here. If you don’t have a school in your village, it’s because you didn’t prioritize, and instead of uniting, you started fighting over who gets the last bucket of water from the well.

Poor countries are poor because of their ideology, not because of imperialism or globalization. Really! Don’t they teach you anything at school?[/quote]

They are usually poor because the state tries to run the economy instead of letting the people practice capitalism.

125

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
who said anything about equal pay? i said a more equal distribution of wealth.
[/quote]

Phew. You’re stubborn. And Zap is right, you ARE confused.

Distribution of wealth: show me a historical example of a efficient “distribution authority”, apart from the best one I know and which I already mentioned (Kibbuz) and which is rather petite, artificial and too cute to take serious. The known ones where mankind’s greatest killers.

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
how easy do you think it is for some one in poor country were they don’t have money to build schools and buy books to “get an education and work harder”?
[/quote]
Hey, everybody starts small. You know, our book and schools didn’t fall from the skies, you have to believe me. If they want to get busy, they will certainly have a much easier time then we had, given such invaluable tools like the internet.

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
capitalism has existed before capitalism became a word. the empires that you mentioned sought to conquer land to increse the wealth of their empire.

as far as sheer numbers and brutality, modern capitalist governments far exceed past empires, its not even comparable. todays capitalists instutions commit crimes all over over the world, no corner has been left untouched. and how many nuclear bombs did those past empires drop? the disregard for the well being of the environment of modern capitalist institutions is unmatched in the history of man.
[/quote]
So in your book capitalism is basically greed or lust for power? Makes sense to attach “evil” attributes to something you don’t seem to understand. After all, this is the modus operandi of demagogues and dictators, the other side is always evil while you know whats best for everyone. At this point, I wonder why you believe anyone could take you seriously.

The word capitalism has a meaning. Go look it up. Defining words ad hoc in a discussion is nonsense. If it’s greed you despise, you should go ahead and call that out.

And the Mongol Empire or the SU wasn’t comparable to the US of A? Exceeding brutality? What have you been smoking? If the US-the capitalist devil- would really like to win, they could level Iraq in 24h and return the boys through IRAN on the way home for some further looting and raping. Too bad their non-capitalist nature made them so gentle. Or what’s your excuse?

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
Orion asked: And what are “food, medicine, housing, clothing, education, electricty, etc” if not material things?

i don’t consider these things material things, i consider them things necessary to live a dignified life.
[/quote]
Then try to locate the non capitalist Bizzaro World where you find those things.

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
you arguments are not solid. if people in the stone age killed animals and cut down jungles it was more out of neccesity not because of financial interests.
[/quote]
So we should live from day to day, with no planning for tomorrow and no trading? We are morally entitled to only do absolutely necessary steps towards survival? Financial interests, like investing, saving and joyful squandering is somewhat sinful?

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
youre argument of greater roman cruelty also does not hold water. in chile a U.S. implemented military dictatorship tortured people by electrocuting the genitals, teaching dogs how to rape women, putting rats in womens vaginas, executing men women and children.

the people who carried out these crimes were trained by the united states at the school of the americas. another thing that the military dictatorship did was open up the country once again to u.s. corporations. but according to you capitalism had nothing to do with it.
[/quote]

Yes, man is cruel. Consider yourself blessed to live in this century. Look up what my ancestors had to endure during the thirty years war. Or better, research the history of execution, torture and sacrifice. It was always there. Even worse, it was the norm back then.

Do you think that blissful extinct anti-capitalist cultures like the maya weren’t capable sodomitic rape or vaginal brutalization? If you’re so protective the female genitals, try educating the primitive anti-capitalistic muslimic tribes not to
cripple their women. Each day 6000!girls are cut up. Why don’t you go and help the organizations (which come solely from capitalistic countries) and help them stop this religious BS?

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
capitalism has created great wealth but it has concentrated it in the hands of a few and it prohibits that wealth from reaching all
[/quote]
Oh boy, now will you show me the means to distribute it fairly and evenly? Sure, there are guys so insanely rich it’s more or less absurd now. But even the lowest classes live so much better now compared to the days when there was a genuine lower class.

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
greed prevails because a capitalist system rewards greed. and this is why a new system has to be established, a system which rewards cooperation
[/quote]
rewarding greed is simple and effective because a boss has to reward his most diligent worker the most if he doesn’t want to lose him to his competitors. You should really show us how this system of yours works, where “cooperation” (with the authorities?)is rewarded.

I should go to sleep now.
One last idea of you:

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
but latin america is fighting back and they will be free soon.
the U.S. conquers countries through economic imperialism. and just recently they have invaded two countries by force: iraq and afghanistan.
not to mention that U.S. corporations exploit and plunder all over the world.
[/quote]
Yeah we get it: US=bad, Chavez = Hero. I’m getting really tired of you.
Sleep well, T-Nation

126

This has become a ridiculous thread.

Capitalism is the engine that has brought humanity out of ignorance. Science has flourished. Investments have spurred breakthroughs in medicine. Wealth has commissioned great works of art. Philosophy can be debated, as people pay them to think.

Greed and crime are not inherent of capitalism. To argue this is a waste of time. Orion, I applaud you for your debating this, but you cannot debate with a socialist.

127

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
The gunman on the next block has announced his intentions to shoot you. But don’t take action…its apparently in the future.
[/quote]
What a stupid analogy. In what way do you feel threatened by this country or leader?

The dude can run his country as he and his citizens decide. Not liking how they are doing things is not a good reason to call for assassination of the man. He hasn’t done anything to the US and there is probably not even a chance that he could do anything to the US.

128

[quote]kroby wrote:
This has become a ridiculous thread.
[/quote]
Yep.

[quote]
Capitalism is the engine that has brought humanity out of ignorance. Science has flourished. Investments have spurred breakthroughs in medicine. Wealth has commissioned great works of art. Philosophy can be debated, as people pay them to think.[/quote]

Well, I’d say sorta to this. Capitalism doesn’t have much to say with our level of ignorance, though it does create a lot of productivity with which people can raise their standard of living and educational levels. However, there are incredibly ignorant people under any ideology.

[quote]
Greed and crime are not inherent of capitalism. To argue this is a waste of time. Orion, I applaud you for your debating this, but you cannot debate with a socialist.[/quote]

Greed and crime are inherent of people. It doesn’t matter what freaking ideology is put in place. Anyone thinking that the world would be Shangri-La under any particular ideology is an idiot. People simply find new ways to fuck over their fellow man within a different set of rules.

129

[quote]vroom wrote:
kroby wrote:

Greed and crime are not inherent of capitalism. To argue this is a waste of time. Orion, I applaud you for your debating this, but you cannot debate with a socialist.

Greed and crime are inherent of people. It doesn’t matter what freaking ideology is put in place. Anyone thinking that the world would be Shangri-La under any particular ideology is an idiot. People simply find new ways to fuck over their fellow man within a different set of rules.[/quote]

Indeed. That is why I am so confused by proponents of socialism berating capitalist societies. I’m beginning to believe that the only Avalon they hold for is a Borg Cube: the only fully functional socialist society.

It is (science) fiction!

130

Just passing through. I am so glad I dropped out of this thread 4 pages ago.

mike

131

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
or those of the Moroccans in the 7th century.[/quote]

I personally can’t think of any inhabitant of Moroccan in the 7th century that rationalized invasion. But I’m sure you know the history of my country better than me, and that you’ll name me the particular individual you’re thinking of.

Right?

132

[quote]orion wrote:
Because Japan understood that an immaterial framework is needed to copy the wests material success. [/quote]

You have a quite short memory. Here’s what you wrote:

“This is one of the main differences between Asia and Africa which where hit equally by imperialism and colonization.”

I replied that it was unfair to say that. Then, you bring up Japan out of the blue.

Japan was a quite advanced country in the 40s. Educated people, heavy industry, etc…

Now, I’ll be waiting for a comparison between colonized Asia and Africa that supports your claim.

133

[quote]kroby wrote:
Orion, I applaud you for your debating this, but you cannot debate with a socialist.[/quote]

Funny thing; RJ called Orion a socialist a few days back.

134

[quote]lixy wrote:
orion wrote:
Because Japan understood that an immaterial framework is needed to copy the wests material success.

You have a quite short memory. Here’s what you wrote:

“This is one of the main differences between Asia and Africa which where hit equally by imperialism and colonization.”

I replied that it was unfair to say that. Then, you bring up Japan out of the blue.

Japan was a quite advanced country in the 40s. Educated people, heavy industry, etc…

Now, I’ll be waiting for a comparison between colonized Asia and Africa that supports your claim. [/quote]

As usual , Orion is right on the money.
Japan was a feudal, backwards nation till 1867 with lots of rice paddies and some lacquered vases. No good resources.
From then, they tried hard to modernize the land through capitalization, copying every big empire’s strengths.

In a few years, they reformed the land mimicking all success stories of the west, from military training to introducing compulsory education. It was even thought about abandoning the national language (German and English were the top candidates).
By 1900 they were a serious imperial power.

There is no reason african countries couldn’t so the same. It will be even easier, for a variety of reasons, like:
We’re aren’t empires anymore and won’t oppose anyone, we’ll even buy their dirt cheap goods, even if they’re of poor quality.

Modern technology like the internet and cell phones allow for an even better education and easier information access.

135

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:
puerto rico and pretty much most of latin america.
but latin america is fighting back and they will be free soon.
the U.S. conquers countries through economic imperialism. and just recently they have invaded two countries by force: iraq and afghanistan.

not to mention that U.S. corporations exploit and plunder all over the world.[/quote]

Puerto Rico and most of Latin America all have their own governments and are not ruled by the United States.

Afghanistan was invaded not to colonize it but as a result of a terrorist attack on our country, or haven’t you heard about it?

The US corporations are not owned by the US government.

136

[quote]lixy wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
or those of the Moroccans in the 7th century.

I personally can’t think of any inhabitant of Moroccan in the 7th century that rationalized invasion. But I’m sure you know the history of my country better than me, and that you’ll name me the particular individual you’re thinking of.

Right?[/quote]

Didn’t the Moors conquer Spain and hold it for almost 700 years? Or am I wrong there?

137

here ya go, Lixy.

In 711, General Jebel Tarik attacks Spain and defeated Roderic of the Visigoths.

ok, it was the 8th century, sue me.

138

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
orion wrote:
Ok, the Romans had women raped by baboons,

…“You see, here in Germany we don’t have any apes.
I want to see a baboon fucking a woman” :slight_smile:

[/quote]

I thought that was Cyprus?

139

[quote]gladiatorsteer wrote:

1)if you cant diferentiate between what hunter gatheres where doing and what modern capitalists institutions are doing then there is something wrong with you. hunter gatherers were not thinking about accumulating capital and building coorporations and dominating the world wide economy.

2)in capitalism what is more rewarding a system of cooperation or instituting a monopoly?

  1. technically we are not forced to do anything but when corporations take over the basic necesseties of human beings such as water, food, healthcare, what choice do we have?

4)under capitalism buyers and sellers do not cooperate. just ask farmers of third world countries who have the price of their product set by the buyer.

ask the people of third world countries that have to pay high prices for basic commodities. where is the cooperation between buyer and seller?[/quote]

I numbered your points to be better able to respond to them.

ad 1) I see the difference. You think “profiting” and capitalist methods and thinking are ok as long as it is used to aquire “necessities” like food, shelter, clothing etc…

When it comes to luxuries however you call the same production procedures “greed”.

To call capitalism bad when it provides “luxuries” and good when it provides “necessities” is inconsistent.

What is hilarious from an economic point of view is that without those luxuries the production of your necessities would be MUCH costlier.

ad 2) The only way in capitalism to have a monopoly as you think of it, is by controlling a vital resource.

There are anti-trust laws to prevent that. True capitalists ususally insist on a free market.

The only other way to establish a monopoly is by co-operation and by satisfying consumer demands so there is no either/or.

Even if there was a monopoly that would raise prices it would immediately see competion spring up that undercuts attempted “monopoly prizes”.

An evil monopoly is short lived in a free market.

ad3) Well, you keep a healthy competition going. If one company treats you bad, vote with your wallet.

ad4) The German Spiegel had an excellent article about the effect of European agriculture on Africas agriculture.

The effects are devastating, but why?

Because the EU subsidizes grain, beef, fish and poultry like there is no tommorrow and THEN subsidizes the dumping of the large surplus production on the world market.

You can call that socialism,or corporatism or fascism, but capitalism?

Hardly.

You also raised the point that a lot of times Africans experience a sellers market and have their prices dictated to them.

True.

They still cooperate, because the companies can set the prizes high, they cannot make Africans buy their stuff though. It is still the Africans decision.

Plus, these companies may want a high price, but they also produce things Africans want. Without those companies there´d be nothing to buy, the Africans could keep ther money and light fires with it or decorate their walls.

In short, these companies offer a choice which makes you automatically richer then you were before.

140

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

here ya go, Lixy.

In 711, General Jebel Tarik attacks Spain and defeated Roderic of the Visigoths.

ok, it was the 8th century, sue me.[/quote]

What?

Greedy imperialism in the name of Islam?