[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
^ wrong movie there chief.[/quote]
LMAO. Before I could edit.
Saw your other vid and I still don’t think he’s touching 80 there. He’s all arm and no torso.[/quote]
EDIT: (was double post) Ha, and another guy in the movie claimed sheen was clocked in the 80’s, so it isn’t just sheen blowing smoke up peoples ass.[/quote]
You’ve never even played baseball, have you?
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
^ wrong movie there chief.[/quote]
LMAO. Before I could edit.
Saw your other vid and I still don’t think he’s touching 80 there. He’s all arm and no torso.[/quote]
EDIT: (was double post) Ha, and another guy in the movie claimed sheen was clocked in the 80’s, so it isn’t just sheen blowing smoke up peoples ass.[/quote]
That’s why I posted it. There’s a person there backing his claims. At least the speed claim.[/quote]
Was it Wesley Snipes, he would say anything to stay out of jail.
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
^ wrong movie there chief.[/quote]
LMAO. Before I could edit.
Saw your other vid and I still don’t think he’s touching 80 there. He’s all arm and no torso.[/quote]
You don’t need great mechanics to throw 80. Sheen does not have perfect mechanics. But to say he can’t hit 80-85 based on his mechanics alone is asinine.
I don’t think his mechanics are that bad, all things considered. He has pretty good arm action. I believe he could throw 80-85 based on the arm speed he generates[/quote]
I’m not saying he couldn’t hit that speed based purely on his mechanics. What I am saying is that if Sheen could hit that speed with his horrible mechanics (his arm action is terrible by the way. He doesn’t stay on top of the ball and he’s pushing it.) then with practice and good mechanics he would have been able to throw much harder than that. I doubt Sheen was throwing 85 for several reasons, his mechanics just being one.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
another[/quote]
This is irrelevant. This is from three or four years ago and you can clearly see the mechanical adjustments he’s made since then in the previous video you posted. His lead leg is much softer upon landing, he gets his hand up a little earlier, his hips stay closed late (I really don’t see how Maiden thinks his hips are opening early so at this point any assessment of any pitcher’s mechanics on his part is irrelevant and immaterial to further discussion).
Another mechanical change he’s made is that he isn’t quite as over the top as he used to be. I think this is one of the main reasons behind the mechanical struggles he’s had earlier this year and last August. Before, he would literally have to move his head out of the way to get the arm so far over the top. This makes it harder to stay focused on your target and as a result his control was off. Now he’s learning how to throw from a slightly lower arm slot and with mechanics that will help prolong his career.
I think some of his inconsistency the last two years can be traced back to this. He’s trying to learn some new mechanics within the framework of his natural throwing motion and even for professionals this can take time. During his second Cy Young season he started to experience a drop in velocity over the second half. Before, it seemed like he was consistently in the mid-90s and then his velocity slowly dipped all the way down to about 89-90 last year at times. I think this loss in velocity is a result of first, his older mechanics that were having a slow, cumulative effect on his arm strength and now, as a result of relearning his mechanics somewhat. His velocity is up this year from last, and I attribute it to refining his mechanics more than I do his infamous In n Out diet.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
He’s lying. He’s full of shit. First of all, as someone who has actually played baseball and thrown 85+mph, I can tell you that Sheen was not even coming close to 85mph in that movie and his throwing motion was so poor that if he could throw 85 with that delivery than with a more mechanically-sound delivery he would be throwing even harder than that.
Furthermore, steroids aren’t going to help put that much velocity on someone’s fastball in that short of a time. 6-8 weeks is about the same time it would take to regain arm strength if someone hasn’t thrown in a while, so even if he could throw 85, he reached that false speed simply because it took him that long to stretch his arm out and regain his arm strength.
This is just some bullshit attempt by Charlie Sheen to try and get more people to watch Major League again so he continues to remain somewhat relevant in the public’s mind.[/quote]
So it’s impossible for steroids to increase a persons fastball 6mph in 6-8 weeks (still a slow fastball by Major League standards), but it’s possible for drugs to turn a player who hit 3 home runs between April '09 and August '09 into a 50+ home run type hitter by September '09? For anyone not following, I’m referring to Jose Bautista.
Also If you write a huge wall of text I’m just not going to bother reading your response.
[/quote]
I have a feeling I’m entering into an intellectual quagmire by engaging you in a conversation as ridiculous as this. But I’ll try.
First of all, your comparison of Sheen to Bautista is asinine. I have never claimed that Bautista is on steroids so I really don’t know why you would bring him into the conversation. If you can come somewhat close to convincing me that Bautista is anywhere close to being relevant to this conversation I might respond. Otherwise, just drop the Bautista thing entirely. I’m not Cuban32 and I do not intend to engage you in a pages-long argument that goes nowhere.
As for Sheen, no it is not impossible for steroids to increase the velocity on one’s fastball, but it is very unlikely that steroids are responsible for adding 6mph in 6-8 weeks to Sheen’s fastball. First of all, the only way steroids are going to put velocity on a fastball is by strengthening the pitcher’s legs and lower back, and even then this tends to allow a pitcher to throw longer at the same speed more so than it allows them to throw harder overall.
I’ve never seen a healthy pitcher, EVER, add 6mph to their fastball in 6-8 weeks simply from gaining strength. It happens due to fixing a major mechanical flaw, recovering from injury or working back into throwing shape after the offseason.
My point is that what Sheen attributes to steroids is probably just him regaining his motion and arm strength naturally. If steroids were really capable of that kind of addition in velocity, Roger Clemens wouldn’t have seen his velocity steadily dip as he grew older. It would have at least stayed the same, if not gone up, if this was true.
At the time when he allegedly started using steroids, Clemens was still throwing mid to high 90’s on a regular basis. Why didn’t he make the jump into a consistent triple-digit velocity. If it was as simple as taking steroids, EVERY pitcher would take them.
Look, Sheen was apparently a pretty decent player in high school and I don’t think he was more than maybe 26 or 27 when he filmed Major League, so if he had the potential at one point to throw hard, then I could see how he was able to put that kind of velocity onto his fastball in such a short time. Think about it. If you could add 6mph to any Major League pitcher, they’d all be entirely different.
There is a huge difference between 85 and 91 and 97. You know when you see that kind of jump in velocity normally? Between the first and second or third week of Spring Training when pitchers are still working themselves into shape. That’s all that Sheen did. [/quote]
Actually I think 95% percent of the population could add 5 mph to their fastball in a couple months if we want to get technical. What percentage of the population regularly throws a baseball with maximum effort off a mound? That’s like saying it would be impossible for an average person to knock a tenth of a second off their speed skating times in 8 weeks.
Which side of the argument this comes down on I’m not really sure. I have no doubt that to Sheen, who may not have gone a year of his adult life without using recreational drugs, using anabolic drugs for a few weeks wasn’t a big deal.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
hmmm… opens up his hips well before foot plant, does not circle his arm up, lands on his heel, no way that guy can throw 95+ with those mechanics…
Point is that most coaches don’t have a clue as to what creates a 95 mph fastball and what is “mechanically sound”[/quote]
Actually, all of the things you pointed out are responsible (in my opinion) for the drop in Lincecum’s velocity since his debut. He was throwing 99mph then and now he rarely hits 95. Why? I think it is due to the stiff front leg he lands on and the way he tends to pick the ball up from behind his hip rather than circle it up. The fact that the ball goes so far behind his back is not problematic, only the way he goes from there to the throwing position.
And his hips stay closed very late, especially in comparison to other pitchers with above average stride lengths. And it wouldn’t surprise me if he experienced arm problems later in his career due to the two other things you mentioned.
But don’t confuse these critiques of his motion as major flaws because they aren’t. With hips as flexible and capable of a range of motion like his, I would expect the effect that landing on a stiff front leg would have on his hips and lower back to be mitigated somewhat. And his right hand’s path isn’t quite the way Strasburg’s is, where he literally forms an inverted “W” with his elbows and shoulders. When Strasburg’s foot hits the ground, both of his elbows are actually above his shoulders and his hands are below them. Try getting into that position right now. It hurts my shoulder just to do it in slow motion. But Lincecum does not have nearly the same problem. There are many, many scouts who would agree with my assessment of these two. And the fact is that with Lincecum’s throwing mechanics he probably won’t be throwing 95mph much longer, but he can remain[/quote]
Nolan Ryan threw from a W position. Same with Pedro, Prior, Wood, Lee, Smoltz. I can go on. Not as pronounced as Lincecum, but from a W nonetheless.
As far as Lincecum landing on a stiff front leg, please look at the video again. It is painfully obvious his lands on with a flexed knee.
To say Lincecums mechanics are why he has lost velocity is absolute shit. Lincecum has NEVER circled up, so how is not circling up now making him lose velocity?
Yes some scouts would agree with your bullshit analysis, but they signed him did they not? because of the damn results. Look what happened when they fucked with Willis’ mechanics, he went to shit.
tmanx:
You’re right, anyone could put on 5mph with some practice. That is why I said that you see that sort of thing happen when people regain their arm strength, or as you mentioned, build it up for the first time. It’s where that 5mph increase ends at that is different. Anyone who can top out at 60 could probably get to 65 with a few minor adjustments and some practice time. I just find it highly unlikely that Sheen could make that sort of gain and end up at what is essentially the average fastball in the College World Series this year. It’s not so much the increase that I find to be dubious, it’s where his velocity gain puts him in terms of top speed.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
another[/quote]
This is irrelevant. This is from three or four years ago and you can clearly see the mechanical adjustments he’s made since then in the previous video you posted. His lead leg is much softer upon landing, he gets his hand up a little earlier, his hips stay closed late (I really don’t see how Maiden thinks his hips are opening early so at this point any assessment of any pitcher’s mechanics on his part is irrelevant and immaterial to further discussion).
[/quote]
I never said he opened his hips up early, a said most coaches would believe so (wrongly) because he begins opening them up well before footplant. This is what helps him throw so hard, not hurt him. 99% of hard throwers begin opening up there hips before footplant, and 99% of coaches preach “stay closed”
You comparing these two clips is worthless as there are at different speeds, angles, and the first one is missing frames.
The fact you think any team would attempt to change the machanics of someone who has won back to back Cy Youngs is fucking retarded.
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
hmmm… opens up his hips well before foot plant, does not circle his arm up, lands on his heel, no way that guy can throw 95+ with those mechanics…
Point is that most coaches don’t have a clue as to what creates a 95 mph fastball and what is “mechanically sound”[/quote]
Actually, all of the things you pointed out are responsible (in my opinion) for the drop in Lincecum’s velocity since his debut. He was throwing 99mph then and now he rarely hits 95. Why? I think it is due to the stiff front leg he lands on and the way he tends to pick the ball up from behind his hip rather than circle it up. The fact that the ball goes so far behind his back is not problematic, only the way he goes from there to the throwing position.
And his hips stay closed very late, especially in comparison to other pitchers with above average stride lengths. And it wouldn’t surprise me if he experienced arm problems later in his career due to the two other things you mentioned.
But don’t confuse these critiques of his motion as major flaws because they aren’t. With hips as flexible and capable of a range of motion like his, I would expect the effect that landing on a stiff front leg would have on his hips and lower back to be mitigated somewhat. And his right hand’s path isn’t quite the way Strasburg’s is, where he literally forms an inverted “W” with his elbows and shoulders. When Strasburg’s foot hits the ground, both of his elbows are actually above his shoulders and his hands are below them. Try getting into that position right now. It hurts my shoulder just to do it in slow motion. But Lincecum does not have nearly the same problem. There are many, many scouts who would agree with my assessment of these two. And the fact is that with Lincecum’s throwing mechanics he probably won’t be throwing 95mph much longer, but he can remain[/quote]
Nolan Ryan threw from a W position. Same with Pedro, Prior, Wood, Lee, Smoltz. I can go on. Not as pronounced as Lincecum, but from a W nonetheless.
As far as Lincecum landing on a stiff front leg, please look at the video again. It is painfully obvious his lands on with a flexed knee.
To say Lincecums mechanics are why he has lost velocity is absolute shit. Lincecum has NEVER circled up, so how is not circling up now making him lose velocity?
Yes some scouts would agree with your bullshit analysis, but they signed him did they not? because of the damn results. Look what happened when they fucked with Willis’ mechanics, he went to shit.[/quote]
This is the last time I address you (hopefully) because you clearly are completely full of shit when it comes to your erroneous knowledge of not only pitching mechanics, but pitchers in general.
Nolan Ryan certainly did not throw from an inverted W position. Inverted means upside down, just in case you’re confused, because he did throw from an L position. Neither did Pedro. Smoltz did, but in moderation. Which is probably why he had Tommy John surgery and had to repair a torn labrum as well. The fact that it wasn’t excessive is what allowed him to return from those injuries and maintain velocity.
Mark Prior and Kerry Wood both certainly did throw from an inverted W position. For once you are right. That is precisely why Kerry Wood struggled for years after blowing his elbow out and now can only pitch effectively one inning at a time since he is incapable of completely overhauling his mechanics and allowing himself to throw longer with less risk of injury. As for Mark Prior, he’s just an early version of Strasburg in my opinion. He’s been out of the bigs for years now. Why? Injuries, due to his extreme inverted W. Thanks for mentioning Wood and Prior though. I didn’t really think my argument needed further fortification, but you provided it anyways and I thank you for that.
As far as Lincecum’s drop in velocity, it’s occurred despite the fact that he’s always kind of picked the ball up because the damage this does to the shoulder is a cumulative effect. It may take years and years to happen, but eventually with that sort of motion you will sustain a traumatic injury of some sort, whether it’s a torn labrum like Prior or a torn ulnar collateral ligament in the elbow due to the excess strain put on it by the weakened shoulder, which I believe is also what happened to Prior at one point.
My reference to Lincecum’s stiff front leg has to do with his previous mechanics, not the current ones. Rajraj provided a nice set of videos to compare the two motions.
And yes, they did sign Strasburg. And you know what? He’ll turn out to be a bust just like Prior was if he doesn’t significantly alter his mechanics. I suggest you do a little research into Dr. Mike Marshall. He’s a former pitcher and now has a doctorate in kinesiology. It is entirely possible to break down the entire motion using kinesiology and identify where major trouble spots occur during the throwing motion. I haven’t been to his website in over a year, but I’m sure he had a field day on there when Strasburg went down because he probably predicted it would happen to him before he even got drafted.
WHO CARES?
Here is another Cy Young winner. Hips begin to open before foot plant, lands on his heel, throws from more of a W (does not “circle up”.) Would you change his mechanics too Mr.Cooper? The Mariners sure wouldn’t.
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
another[/quote]
This is irrelevant. This is from three or four years ago and you can clearly see the mechanical adjustments he’s made since then in the previous video you posted. His lead leg is much softer upon landing, he gets his hand up a little earlier, his hips stay closed late (I really don’t see how Maiden thinks his hips are opening early so at this point any assessment of any pitcher’s mechanics on his part is irrelevant and immaterial to further discussion).
[/quote]
I never said he opened his hips up early, a said most coaches would believe so (wrongly) because he begins opening them up well before footplant. This is what helps him throw so hard, not hurt him. 99% of hard throwers begin opening up there hips before footplant, and 99% of coaches preach “stay closed”
You comparing these two clips is worthless as there are at different speeds, angles, and the first one is missing frames.
The fact you think any team would attempt to change the machanics of someone who has won back to back Cy Youngs is fucking retarded.[/quote]
Okay, I am now officially done with you. You are clearly someone who has 1) never pitched at a high level, 2) received any sort of credible pitching instruction or worked with a reputable pitching coach 3) you have no clue what pitching coaches mean when they give cues like “keep your hips closed” and 4) I am seriously doubting whether or not you have ever played baseball beyond JV high school ball in some third-rate conference. I suppose at that level you would get the faulty coaching you are describing.
When a coach says stay closed, it just means stay closed longer because you are opening up too early. It has more to do with flying open with the front shoulder than the hips. Coaches never teach to fly open with the lead shoulder because you drag the arm through as a result and this also tends to make it harder to stay on top of the ball. You actually want a separation of the hips and the shoulders so that the hips open early and the torso opens late. This is part of the kinetic chain I was talking about earlier. By opening up earlier with the hips and later with the torso, you are able to maximize rotational torque and allow your arm to simply come along for the ride.
Let me make this absolutely, crystal clear for you. The above paragraph is not my personal analysis. It is common knowledge amongst anyone with an inkling of an idea of the proper pitching motion. Do not argue the above paragraph unless you can specifically provide an example of a credible pitching coach teaching a late, post-foot-landing hip rotation. In fact, just save yourself the trouble because you won’t find it anywhere. While you’re researching Dr. Marshall you should also read some stuff by Tom House, who I believe also has a doctorate in kinesiology and has worked with some of the top pitchers in the game today.
Whoever thought of calling Strasburg’s delivery an “inverted W” is an asshole trying to sound smart. An inverted W is an M!
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]scj119 wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
^ wrong movie there chief.[/quote]
LMAO. Before I could edit.
Saw your other vid and I still don’t think he’s touching 80 there. He’s all arm and no torso.[/quote]
You don’t need great mechanics to throw 80. Sheen does not have perfect mechanics. But to say he can’t hit 80-85 based on his mechanics alone is asinine.
I don’t think his mechanics are that bad, all things considered. He has pretty good arm action. I believe he could throw 80-85 based on the arm speed he generates[/quote]
I didn’t say he can’t based on that - I said I don’t think he is.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
hmmm… opens up his hips well before foot plant, does not circle his arm up, lands on his heel, no way that guy can throw 95+ with those mechanics…
Point is that most coaches don’t have a clue as to what creates a 95 mph fastball and what is “mechanically sound”[/quote]
Actually, all of the things you pointed out are responsible (in my opinion) for the drop in Lincecum’s velocity since his debut. He was throwing 99mph then and now he rarely hits 95. Why? I think it is due to the stiff front leg he lands on and the way he tends to pick the ball up from behind his hip rather than circle it up. The fact that the ball goes so far behind his back is not problematic, only the way he goes from there to the throwing position.
And his hips stay closed very late, especially in comparison to other pitchers with above average stride lengths. And it wouldn’t surprise me if he experienced arm problems later in his career due to the two other things you mentioned.
But don’t confuse these critiques of his motion as major flaws because they aren’t. With hips as flexible and capable of a range of motion like his, I would expect the effect that landing on a stiff front leg would have on his hips and lower back to be mitigated somewhat. And his right hand’s path isn’t quite the way Strasburg’s is, where he literally forms an inverted “W” with his elbows and shoulders. When Strasburg’s foot hits the ground, both of his elbows are actually above his shoulders and his hands are below them. Try getting into that position right now. It hurts my shoulder just to do it in slow motion. But Lincecum does not have nearly the same problem. There are many, many scouts who would agree with my assessment of these two. And the fact is that with Lincecum’s throwing mechanics he probably won’t be throwing 95mph much longer, but he can remain[/quote]
Nolan Ryan threw from a W position. Same with Pedro, Prior, Wood, Lee, Smoltz. I can go on. Not as pronounced as Lincecum, but from a W nonetheless.
As far as Lincecum landing on a stiff front leg, please look at the video again. It is painfully obvious his lands on with a flexed knee.
To say Lincecums mechanics are why he has lost velocity is absolute shit. Lincecum has NEVER circled up, so how is not circling up now making him lose velocity?
Yes some scouts would agree with your bullshit analysis, but they signed him did they not? because of the damn results. Look what happened when they fucked with Willis’ mechanics, he went to shit.[/quote]
This is the last time I address you (hopefully) because you clearly are completely full of shit when it comes to your erroneous knowledge of not only pitching mechanics, but pitchers in general.
Nolan Ryan certainly did not throw from an inverted W position. Inverted means upside down, just in case you’re confused, because he did throw from an L position. Neither did Pedro. Smoltz did, but in moderation. Which is probably why he had Tommy John surgery and had to repair a torn labrum as well. The fact that it wasn’t excessive is what allowed him to return from those injuries and maintain velocity.
Mark Prior and Kerry Wood both certainly did throw from an inverted W position. For once you are right. That is precisely why Kerry Wood struggled for years after blowing his elbow out and now can only pitch effectively one inning at a time since he is incapable of completely overhauling his mechanics and allowing himself to throw longer with less risk of injury. As for Mark Prior, he’s just an early version of Strasburg in my opinion. He’s been out of the bigs for years now. Why? Injuries, due to his extreme inverted W. Thanks for mentioning Wood and Prior though. I didn’t really think my argument needed further fortification, but you provided it anyways and I thank you for that.
As far as Lincecum’s drop in velocity, it’s occurred despite the fact that he’s always kind of picked the ball up because the damage this does to the shoulder is a cumulative effect. It may take years and years to happen, but eventually with that sort of motion you will sustain a traumatic injury of some sort, whether it’s a torn labrum like Prior or a torn ulnar collateral ligament in the elbow due to the excess strain put on it by the weakened shoulder, which I believe is also what happened to Prior at one point.
My reference to Lincecum’s stiff front leg has to do with his previous mechanics, not the current ones. Rajraj provided a nice set of videos to compare the two motions.
And yes, they did sign Strasburg. And you know what? He’ll turn out to be a bust just like Prior was if he doesn’t significantly alter his mechanics. I suggest you do a little research into Dr. Mike Marshall. He’s a former pitcher and now has a doctorate in kinesiology. It is entirely possible to break down the entire motion using kinesiology and identify where major trouble spots occur during the throwing motion. I haven’t been to his website in over a year, but I’m sure he had a field day on there when Strasburg went down because he probably predicted it would happen to him before he even got drafted.[/quote]
When did I say Nolan Ryan threw from an inverted W? I just said he threw from a W (more of a W parrellel to the ground, elbow a bit higher than hands), Which he did. I also said Lincecums W was more pronaounced (inverted.) Ryan certainly did NOT throw from an L position. You could not be more wrong about that. He threw THROUGH the L position, not from it. Big fucking difference. If you watch him pitch and you can’t see that you need some new glasses.
You don’t know as much as you like to make yourself think you do.
EDIT: No shit most coaches don’t teach to begin opening up your hips before footplant, because they don’t know you should and they have’nt a clue how to teach it.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
You actually want a separation of the hips and the shoulders so that the hips open early and the torso opens late. This is part of the kinetic chain I was talking about earlier. By opening up earlier with the hips and later with the torso, you are able to maximize rotational torque and allow your arm to simply come along for the ride.
[/quote]
I’m going to start breaking up your quotes.
I completely agree with the above statement. When have I disagreed? I have pointed out lincecum and hernandez opening their hips before footplant, and yes ofcourse keeping their shoulders closed. This creates torque, as you stated, and is why a lot of the little guys like Lincecum can throw so hard.
Your coaches may have taught you this, but MOST don’t.
edit- the best hitters use the same technique, just to a lesser degree
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
hmmm… opens up his hips well before foot plant, does not circle his arm up, lands on his heel, no way that guy can throw 95+ with those mechanics…
Point is that most coaches don’t have a clue as to what creates a 95 mph fastball and what is “mechanically sound”[/quote]
Actually, all of the things you pointed out are responsible (in my opinion) for the drop in Lincecum’s velocity since his debut. He was throwing 99mph then and now he rarely hits 95. Why? I think it is due to the stiff front leg he lands on and the way he tends to pick the ball up from behind his hip rather than circle it up. The fact that the ball goes so far behind his back is not problematic, only the way he goes from there to the throwing position.
And his hips stay closed very late, especially in comparison to other pitchers with above average stride lengths. And it wouldn’t surprise me if he experienced arm problems later in his career due to the two other things you mentioned.
But don’t confuse these critiques of his motion as major flaws because they aren’t. With hips as flexible and capable of a range of motion like his, I would expect the effect that landing on a stiff front leg would have on his hips and lower back to be mitigated somewhat. And his right hand’s path isn’t quite the way Strasburg’s is, where he literally forms an inverted “W” with his elbows and shoulders. When Strasburg’s foot hits the ground, both of his elbows are actually above his shoulders and his hands are below them. Try getting into that position right now. It hurts my shoulder just to do it in slow motion. But Lincecum does not have nearly the same problem. There are many, many scouts who would agree with my assessment of these two. And the fact is that with Lincecum’s throwing mechanics he probably won’t be throwing 95mph much longer, but he can remain[/quote]
Nolan Ryan threw from a W position. Same with Pedro, Prior, Wood, Lee, Smoltz. I can go on. Not as pronounced as Lincecum, but from a W nonetheless.
As far as Lincecum landing on a stiff front leg, please look at the video again. It is painfully obvious his lands on with a flexed knee.
To say Lincecums mechanics are why he has lost velocity is absolute shit. Lincecum has NEVER circled up, so how is not circling up now making him lose velocity?
Yes some scouts would agree with your bullshit analysis, but they signed him did they not? because of the damn results. Look what happened when they fucked with Willis’ mechanics, he went to shit.[/quote]
This is the last time I address you (hopefully) because you clearly are completely full of shit when it comes to your erroneous knowledge of not only pitching mechanics, but pitchers in general.
Nolan Ryan certainly did not throw from an inverted W position. Inverted means upside down, just in case you’re confused, because he did throw from an L position. Neither did Pedro. Smoltz did, but in moderation. Which is probably why he had Tommy John surgery and had to repair a torn labrum as well. The fact that it wasn’t excessive is what allowed him to return from those injuries and maintain velocity.
Mark Prior and Kerry Wood both certainly did throw from an inverted W position. For once you are right. That is precisely why Kerry Wood struggled for years after blowing his elbow out and now can only pitch effectively one inning at a time since he is incapable of completely overhauling his mechanics and allowing himself to throw longer with less risk of injury. As for Mark Prior, he’s just an early version of Strasburg in my opinion. He’s been out of the bigs for years now. Why? Injuries, due to his extreme inverted W. Thanks for mentioning Wood and Prior though. I didn’t really think my argument needed further fortification, but you provided it anyways and I thank you for that.
As far as Lincecum’s drop in velocity, it’s occurred despite the fact that he’s always kind of picked the ball up because the damage this does to the shoulder is a cumulative effect. It may take years and years to happen, but eventually with that sort of motion you will sustain a traumatic injury of some sort, whether it’s a torn labrum like Prior or a torn ulnar collateral ligament in the elbow due to the excess strain put on it by the weakened shoulder, which I believe is also what happened to Prior at one point.
My reference to Lincecum’s stiff front leg has to do with his previous mechanics, not the current ones. Rajraj provided a nice set of videos to compare the two motions.
And yes, they did sign Strasburg. And you know what? He’ll turn out to be a bust just like Prior was if he doesn’t significantly alter his mechanics. I suggest you do a little research into Dr. Mike Marshall. He’s a former pitcher and now has a doctorate in kinesiology. It is entirely possible to break down the entire motion using kinesiology and identify where major trouble spots occur during the throwing motion. I haven’t been to his website in over a year, but I’m sure he had a field day on there when Strasburg went down because he probably predicted it would happen to him before he even got drafted.[/quote]
When did I say Nolan Ryan threw from an inverted W? I just said he threw from a W (more of a W parrellel to the ground, elbow a bit higher than hands), Which he did. I also said Lincecums W was more pronaounced (inverted.) Ryan certainly did NOT throw from an L position. You could not be more wrong about that. He threw THROUGH the L position, not from it. Big fucking difference. If you watch him pitch and you can’t see that you need some new glasses.
You don’t know as much as you like to make yourself think you do.
[/quote]
Through the L? That’s what I mean when I say he throws from an L position, you moron. Did you think I meant he simply lifted his arm up into an L position and threw from there? No, he circles into it. He doesn’t turn his thumbs downward and away from his centerline like someone who throws from an extreme L position like say, Julian Tavarez back in the day. But he does circle up into the throwing motion
And when you said W I assumed you meant inverted W since that is what I have been referring to for several posts now. Either way, you are still wrong since Prior and Wood did not have the same arm action regardless of what letter you want to assign it that Ryan or Lincecum has. Neither of them used their hips and legs the way Ryan and Lincecum did to compensate for the strain put on their shoulder. Ryan throws from a more sideways W or M, which is why I said that he does not throw from the inverted W position.
On top of everything else, does Nolan Ryan really make a good case study as far as mechanics and their effect on the longevity of a pitcher’s career? Not really. He was a freak of nature, a once-in-a-lifetime talent.
But what I really think is funny is that you refer to my avatar’s glasses as if they were my own. Clearly you are even more unintelligent than you’ve made yourself out to be for the last 4 pages.
I’m finished with you. You are an idiot, you have never played high-level baseball or received high-level pitching instruction, you have never pitched from 60’6" in competition in your life, you’ve never thrown to any current MLBers at any point in your life, you have no concept of what I am talking about when I discuss proper pitching mechanics, you have never spoken to a scout in your life so you have no reason to even enter a discussion about what they look for in a prospect…and if you HAVE done all of these things and are still arriving at the conclusions you have been arriving at then you are even stupider than my superior intellect thought was possible.
/thread.
[quote]Maiden3.16 wrote:
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
You actually want a separation of the hips and the shoulders so that the hips open early and the torso opens late. This is part of the kinetic chain I was talking about earlier. By opening up earlier with the hips and later with the torso, you are able to maximize rotational torque and allow your arm to simply come along for the ride.
[/quote]
I’m going to start breaking up your quotes.
I completely agree with the above statement. When have I disagreed? I have pointed out lincecum and hernandez opening their hips before footplant, and yes ofcourse keeping their shoulders closed. This creates torque, as you stated, and is why a lot of the little guys like Lincecum can throw so hard.
Your coaches may have taught you this, but MOST don’t.[/quote]
MOST don’t? Perhaps where you grew up playing ball they don’t. But out here in California it’s common teaching. When I started playing DI ball was not the first time I heard this advice. It’s fairly common and is actually the foundation of the transfer of weight and the beginning of learning how to throw freely and with a high velocity and a minimum level of effort. Learning how to separate the hips and the torso is one of the most fundamental things you learn when pitching. If you didn’t learn this when you played, or 99% of your coaches never taught you this then you must have stopped playing when you were 12 years old.
[quote]DBCooper wrote:
On top of everything else, does Nolan Ryan really make a good case study as far as mechanics and their effect on the longevity of a pitcher’s career? Not really. He was a freak of nature, a once-in-a-lifetime talent.
[/quote]
LOL! God, This is the dumbest statement I have read since being on these forums.
Nolan Ryan is a great case study for mechanics that:
produced 7 no-hitters
A 100 MPH heater
A pretty much injury free, hall of fame career that lasted well into his forties.
If anyones mechanics should be emulated, it is his.
For you to say anything other than that is the most idiotic thing I have ever heard.
And no, circling up to the L is completely different than throwing from the W and through the L position.
Your analysis sucks.
edited for Sp.
okay 100 posts
/thread