CH - Digest Too Quickly?

I came across this study about Casein hydrolysate stating that it digests to quickly and heads straight to the gut instead of the skeletal muscle.

The study was done by Lyle McDonald if that helps with anything.

[quote] Despite similar overall net postprandial protein utilization, our results indicate important differences in metabolic partitioning and kinetics between protein sources characterized by a preferential utilization of dietary nitrogen by for splanchnic protein syntheses after HC [hydrolyzed casein] ingestion at the expense of the incorporation into peripheral tissues.

Translating that into English: hydrolyzed casein is digested more poorly, gets burned for energy to a greater degree and gets used more by the gut than intact casein; the end result of this is that hydrolyzed casein provides LESS amino acids to skeletal muscle after ingestion than intact casein protein.

So not only is the claim that hydrolysates are better at providing aminos faster to skeletal muscle wrong, the reality is actually exactly reversed: intact casein is better for providing aminos to the muscle. Iâ??d note that other studies have found this as well: in one, intact protein provided MORE branched-chain amino acids into the bloodstream than a hydrolyzed form.[/quote]

What is every ones thoughts on this? CT?

I don’t think that Lyle did the study, he simply gave his review of something he read.

I’ve done my fair share of reviewing on almost all subjects regarding nutrition and training, and there is one common theme: there are always studies proving something and other studies proving the opposite! Lab settings, testing conditions, protocols, actual substance used, characteristics of the subjects, etc. Everything tends to vary.

Will we see studies showing that CHY is digested too quickly? Sure. Will we see some that show that it causes the fastest rise in blood amino acids? Sure! Studies can only help us to a certain degree. Eventually in-the-trenches experience trumps everything.

While I DO believe in the need for scientific work regarding nutrition and training, it seems odd to me that those who rely SOLELY on studies to make their own opinion are often those who have the least amount of results to show themselves.

This is not a dig at Lyle. We actually had a short email exchange and I told him how much I do respect him, so it is not the point. But he does tend to be on a mission to blast every single supplement that comes to the market. I’m all for watchdogs… there is so much crap being sold as ‘cutting edge’ supplements that we NEED these guys. But from my own perspective, you can’t argue with results!

See, this study finds the exact opposite to be true… that CHY leads to an increase in amino acids transport to the muscles:

Ingestion of a protein hydrolysate is accompanied by an accelerated in vivo digestion and absorption rate when compared with its intact protein1,2,3
René Koopman, Nico Crombach, Annemie P Gijsen, Stéphane Walrand, Jacques Fauquant, Arie K Kies, Sophie Lemosquet, Wim HM Saris, Yves Boirie and Luc JC van Loon
1 From the Department of Human Movement Sciences, Nutrition and Toxicology Research Institute Maastricht, Maastricht, Netherlands (RK, NC, and LJCvL); the Department of Human Biology, Nutrition and Toxicology Research Institute Maastricht, Maastricht University, Maastricht, Netherlands (APG and WHMS); the Human Nutrition Unit, Université Clermont Auvergne, Centre de Recherche en Nutrition Humaine BP 321, Clermont-Ferrand, France (SW and YB); INRA, Agrocampus Ouest, UMR1253, Rennes, France (JF); DSM Food Specialties, Research and Development, Biochemistry and Nutrition Department, Delft, Netherlands (AKK); Unité Mixte de Recherches sur la Production du Lait, INRA, Saint Gilles, France (SL); and Top Institute Food and Nutrition, Wageningen, Netherlands (LJCvL).

2 Supported by a grant from DSM Food Specialties (Delft, Netherlands).

3 Address correspondence to LJC van Loon, Department of Human Movement Sciences, Maastricht University, PO Box 616, 6200 MD Maastricht, Netherlands. E-mail: l.vanloon@hb.unimaas.nl.

Background: It has been suggested that a protein hydrolysate, as opposed to its intact protein, is more easily digested and absorbed from the gut, which results in greater plasma amino acid availability and a greater muscle protein synthetic response.

Objective: We aimed to compare dietary protein digestion and absorption kinetics and the subsequent muscle protein synthetic response to the ingestion of a single bolus of protein hydrolysate compared with its intact protein in vivo in humans.

Design: Ten elderly men (mean ± SEM age: 64 ± 1 y) were randomly assigned to a crossover experiment that involved 2 treatments in which the subjects consumed a 35-g bolus of specifically produced L-[1-13C]phenylalanine-labeled intact casein (CAS) or hydrolyzed casein (CASH). Blood and muscle-tissue samples were collected to assess the appearance rate of dietary proteinâ??derived phenylalanine in the circulation and subsequent muscle protein fractional synthetic rate over a 6-h postprandial period.

Results: The mean (±SEM) exogenous phenylalanine appearance rate was 27 ± 6% higher after ingestion of CASH than after ingestion of CAS (P < 0.001). Splanchnic extraction was significantly lower in CASH compared with CAS treatment (P < 0.01). Plasma amino acid concentrations increased to a greater extent (25â??50%) after the ingestion of CASH than after the ingestion of CAS (P < 0.01). Muscle protein synthesis rates averaged 0.054 ± 0.004% and 0.068 ± 0.006%/h in the CAS and CASH treatments, respectively (P = 0.10).

Conclusions: Ingestion of a protein hydrolysate, as opposed to its intact protein, accelerates protein digestion and absorption from the gut, augments postprandial amino acid availability, and tends to increase the incorporation rate of dietary amino acids into skeletal muscle protein.

Scooze, the only study that should matter is the one you do for yourself, IMHO. I for the most part zone out whenever a PubMed link is given to either prove or disprove something. Because as Coach mentioned, you can find a study for either side’s argument.

You can use what you gather as tools, don’t get me wrong but ultimately what it leaves you with is what does product/system x do for you?? Not what it does for a rat or an elderly person or the fact that the information may have been gathered by a person who isn’t objective in assessing a product.

Think about the study Lyle referenced. It flies in the face of in the trenches knowledge. Fast protein in some form has been used by bodybuilders for decades and CH is the ultimate fast digesting protein.

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
I don’t think that Lyle did the study, he simply gave his review of something he read.

I’ve done my fair share of reviewing on almost all subjects regarding nutrition and training, and there is one common theme: there are always studies proving something and other studies proving the opposite! Lab settings, testing conditions, protocols, actual substance used, characteristics of the subjects, etc. Everything tends to vary.

Will we see studies showing that CHY is digested too quickly? Sure. Will we see some that show that it causes the fastest rise in blood amino acids? Sure! Studies can only help us to a certain degree. Eventually in-the-trenches experience trumps everything.

While I DO believe in the need for scientific work regarding nutrition and training, it seems odd to me that those who rely SOLELY on studies to make their own opinion are often those who have the least amount of results to show themselves.

This is not a dig at Lyle. We actually had a short email exchange and I told him how much I do respect him, so it is not the point. But he does tend to be on a mission to blast every single supplement that comes to the market. I’m all for watchdogs… there is so much crap being sold as ‘cutting edge’ supplements that we NEED these guys. But from my own perspective, you can’t argue with results![/quote]

Great answer, glad to see you are still being rational with regard to his stuff

Check out this link Protein hydrolysates in sports nutrition | Nutrition & Metabolism | Full Text. A nice synopsis on the research out there.

[quote]bilski wrote:
Check out this link Protein hydrolysates in sports nutrition | Nutrition & Metabolism | Full Text. A nice synopsis on the research out there.[/quote]

Great find!

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]bilski wrote:
Check out this link Protein hydrolysates in sports nutrition | Nutrition & Metabolism | Full Text. A nice synopsis on the research out there.[/quote]

Great find![/quote]

This should be stickied.

Some of the highlights:

“The most sophisticated study to date demonstrated that a 35 g dose of rapidly absorbed casein hydrolysate is ~30% more effective in stimulating skeletal muscle protein synthesis than intact casein when measured over the 6 h period”

“Thus, the notion than an amino acid is an amino acid no matter how administered is clearly fallacious.”

“…intra-exercise protein hydrolysate ingestion seems to offer substantial benefits.”

[quote]bilski wrote:
Check out this link Protein hydrolysates in sports nutrition | Nutrition & Metabolism | Full Text. A nice synopsis on the research out there.[/quote]

7 yr member and 1st post ;]

One thing I also like to consider… these studies are often done b/c they want to prove that a supplement doesn’t work, hoping to protect consumers. That’s respectable as CT noted, but chew on this:

It’s been reported that the development/manufacturing costs of a CH product is very high and as such Biotest isn’t making very huge profit margins on it despite the high cost (it still needs to be marketable!)

So really if it didn’t work why would any company waste their time and resources making a product with CH when they could just make a more effective one with cheaper production costs and higher mark-ups?

The natural conclusion IMO is that it must bring results because those results are what will ultimately make the sale under such economics (long term).

[quote]gabex wrote:

[quote]bilski wrote:
Check out this link Protein hydrolysates in sports nutrition | Nutrition & Metabolism | Full Text. A nice synopsis on the research out there.[/quote]

7 yr member and 1st post ;][/quote]
nice!

Keep in mind that even if it is less efficient overall than casein, since it is absorbed much faster there is a much faster and larger spike in aminos in the blood than normal casein and that is why you’d choose it anyway. You’re not going to get that spike no matter HOW efficient digestion is if it takes 6 hours.

I think that the results are correct, but the conclusion (the protein is no good) is absolutely wrong- that amino spike seems to be a superior way of getting the body to grow muscle.

Plus, milk compared to soy protein? Of course soy will get it’s butt kicked by milk lol

[quote]gabex wrote:

[quote]bilski wrote:
Check out this link Protein hydrolysates in sports nutrition | Nutrition & Metabolism | Full Text. A nice synopsis on the research out there.[/quote]

7 yr member and 1st post ;][/quote]

That IS funny isn’t it. Not usually a big forum guy, but the science geek in me has resurfaced with this peri-workout nutrition. Had been experimenting with the only decent product that predated ANACONDA and found the whole protocol to be very productive at only 40grams of hydrolysate. Will go on the full protocol including the bars in about a week or so…Empirical evidence such as Thib’s often trumps scientifice research, which ultimately just provides the “how”.

[quote]bilski wrote:
…Had been experimenting with the only decent product that predated ANACONDA and found the whole protocol to be very productive at only 40grams of hydrolysate. Will go on the full protocol including the bars in about a week or so…Empirical evidence such as Thib’s often trumps scientifice research, which ultimately just provides the “how”.[/quote]

Good luck with the full protocol! I’m sure you’ll get great results since the protocol has so much more in it than just the CH.

[quote]bilski wrote:

[quote]gabex wrote:

[quote]bilski wrote:
Check out this link Protein hydrolysates in sports nutrition | Nutrition & Metabolism | Full Text. A nice synopsis on the research out there.[/quote]

7 yr member and 1st post ;][/quote]

That IS funny isn’t it. Not usually a big forum guy, but the science geek in me has resurfaced with this peri-workout nutrition. Had been experimenting with the only decent product that predated ANACONDA and found the whole protocol to be very productive at only 40grams of hydrolysate. Will go on the full protocol including the bars in about a week or so…Empirical evidence such as Thib’s often trumps scientifice research, which ultimately just provides the “how”.[/quote]

Definitely. I’m currently doing 1 Finibar, 2 SWF, 1 SR right now, all pre, but would like to add some CHY to sip during. I don’t think I’d ever be able to afford the full protocol though.

Was flipping through the newest Muscular Development (February 2010) and spotted this in the nutrition section.

“The study showed that hydrolyzed casein protein supplements increase blood levels of amino acids and insulin (a highly anabolic hormone) faster and greater than intact casein, but that IC was a longer acting protein”

Did Lyl’s study say when the protein was administered?

[quote]Lunarisx718 wrote:
Was flipping through the newest Muscular Development (February 2010) and spotted this in the nutrition section.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/90/4/1011

“The study showed that hydrolyzed casein protein supplements increase blood levels of amino acids and insulin (a highly anabolic hormone) faster and greater than intact casein, but that IC was a longer acting protein”[/quote]

But how does it compare to Hydrolyzed Whey Isolate?