[quote]orion wrote:
Either it is wrong to force someone else to fork over the fruits of his labor at gunpoint or it isnt.[/quote]
If it’s taxation, it isn’t wrong. Slavery is.
[quote]The whole concept is not suddenly transmogrified into “the price we pay for civilization” just because the people doing it are issued a government costume.
[/quote]
Yes, it is. See, we get to live as citizens of a society that provides police, courts, and defense. Slaves don’t even have that option. They’re trade goods.
[quote]orion wrote:
Either it is wrong to force someone else to fork over the fruits of his labor at gunpoint or it isnt.[/quote]
If it’s taxation, it isn’t wrong. Slavery is.
[quote]The whole concept is not suddenly transmogrified into “the price we pay for civilization” just because the people doing it are issued a government costume.
[/quote]
Yes, it is. See, we get to live as citizens of a society that provides police, courts, and defense. Slaves don’t even have that option. They’re trade goods. [/quote]
I can’t believe I’m going to say this…
In fact, it pains me to do so…
And, I may throw up… oh… shit… okay… that’s better.
[quote]orion wrote:
Either it is wrong to force someone else to fork over the fruits of his labor at gunpoint or it isnt.[/quote]
If it’s taxation, it isn’t wrong. Slavery is.
[quote]The whole concept is not suddenly transmogrified into “the price we pay for civilization” just because the people doing it are issued a government costume.
[/quote]
Yes, it is. See, we get to live as citizens of a society that provides police, courts, and defense. Slaves don’t even have that option. They’re trade goods. [/quote]
I can’t believe I’m going to say this…
In fact, it pains me to do so…
And, I may throw up… oh… shit… okay… that’s better.
Anyway, good post, Sloth![/quote]
If I’m not inducing vomiting with my posts, well, I’m just not trying hard enough.
[quote]orion wrote:
Either it is wrong to force someone else to fork over the fruits of his labor at gunpoint or it isnt.[/quote]
If it’s taxation, it isn’t wrong. Slavery is.
[quote]The whole concept is not suddenly transmogrified into “the price we pay for civilization” just because the people doing it are issued a government costume.
[/quote]
Yes, it is. See, we get to live as citizens of a society that provides police, courts, and defense. Slaves don’t even have that option. They’re trade goods. [/quote]
The first one is unsubstantial fluff because you saying so hardly makes it so, the second one is just plain wrong.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
You could say that the Union ultimately aided the seccesion of the black man from the institution of slavery. There, a worthy seccesion.[/quote]
So they were fighting for the principle that is wrong to be forced to labor for another man, unless of course that man works for the government?
[/quote]
Don’t even try to compare paying taxes to southern slavery. I doubt the idea of having to pay taxes out of PAID labor (which could be left) would’ve bothered the black slave.[/quote]
But the soldiers of the North were not only forced to pay taxes, but also to kill or die.
That is something almost no slave was forced to do .
Also, the level of taxation today os such that it far exceeds anything that could have been extracted from slaves without killing them.
[/quote]
And if slavers ever tried to run away with part of our country again, we should once again conscript every man to defeat them, freeing those enslaved within our borders.[/quote]
So enslaving people to end slavery is ok?
Also, where do your borders stop and other peoples borders begin?
Finally, what makes slavery wrong, yet taxation and the draft ok?
[quote]orion wrote:
Either it is wrong to force someone else to fork over the fruits of his labor at gunpoint or it isnt.[/quote]
If it’s taxation, it isn’t wrong. Slavery is.
[quote]The whole concept is not suddenly transmogrified into “the price we pay for civilization” just because the people doing it are issued a government costume.
[/quote]
Yes, it is. See, we get to live as citizens of a society that provides police, courts, and defense. Slaves don’t even have that option. They’re trade goods. [/quote]
I can’t believe I’m going to say this…
In fact, it pains me to do so…
And, I may throw up… oh… shit… okay… that’s better.
Anyway, good post, Sloth![/quote]
I would feel sick too if I agreed with emotional drivel that avoids to adress any argument made.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
The real reason Lincoln stopped the south from seceding was purely financial. The Union stood to lose a lot of tax revenue if the south seceded. It was never about ending slavery but rather about retaining power in Washington.
Every person or group of persons should have the right to secede from any level of government that they wish.[/quote]
Well, I would believe you except for one thing: not once in any speech Lincoln ever made or in any letter he ever wrote did he ever say that he went to war for financial reasons. You’re simply projecting your own suspicions onto him with this assumption.[/quote]
He did however repeatedly and specifically state that he did not care about slavery, one way or the other.
[/quote]
Not correct, he abhorred slavery but he put preserving the union above his desire to end slavery.
Slavery was THE core issue of the Civil War. The southern states succeeded because they knew the end of slavery was coming and they would be at a huge economic disadvantage without slavery.
The legality of secession and Lincoln’s response are debatable but the facts are not. [/quote]
Actually, Orion is correct, somewhat. Lincoln did say that he would just as soon preserve slavery if it meant preserving the Union. He also at one point advocated a separation of the races. But these things that he said disregard the timeline in which he said them. Most of the language he used tha supports Orion’s argument was between 1858 and 1861-62. By 1862, Lincoln had come to understand that the only way to realize his primary goal (preserving the Union) would be to end slavery. He abhorred slavery once he came to this realization because he understood that the institution of slavery was THE issue keeping the nation divided. [/quote]
He is incorrect. Before the election Lincoln wrote and spoke of ending slavery. He thought it was an atrocity. Yes he wanted to separate the races and he thought bringing African slaves over was a horrible mistake.
He did not want to emancipate the slaves directly because it would have destroyed the Union.
He wanted to block slavery from the Territories and isolate it in the South. He hoped it could end within 20 years without war.
His first priority was keeping the country together but don’t let anyone tell you he did not care about slavery.
[/quote]
You’re right, he certainly did care about ending slavery. I think we’re quibbling over semantics here. My point is that he did say at one point that he would just as soon preserve it if to do so would preserve the Union.
I think I’m going to bump this thread because it seems that I’m simply repeating myself over and over again. The really good shit starts around the second or third page.
Seems we agree, which is good because you seem to have your shit together. I think it is an important point because some are tying to portray Lincoln as a sociopath and I certainly disagree.
He was a politician and many of the dirty hypocritical things associated with politics in general can be applied to him but a sociopath? I think not.
Slavery and income taxation are the same thing.
…[/quote]
Tell that to a slave.
Taxation is not slavery. Taxation is not theft. Maybe you can equate taxation with extortion in some cases but your type of rhetoric makes intelligent discussion very difficult.
yep
having to pay for public services and public infrastructures is exactly the same thing than being the private tool of another man for your whole life.
Slavery and income taxation are the same thing.
…[/quote]
Tell that to a slave.
Taxation is not slavery. Taxation is not theft. Maybe you can equate taxation with extortion in some cases but your type of rhetoric makes intelligent discussion very difficult.[/quote]
It is the consequences of an actions that matter; I do not care what what words are made up by the established order to explain itself. The end result tells us all we need to know about an action.
Taking my money and telling me what I deserve to keep is most certainly slavery. At the end of the day I do not own my labor.
you don’t have chains.
if you don’t want to be taxed, no one is forcing you. you are free to leave.
slaves were not.
there is many countries with little to no individual taxes.
Azerbaidjan, Malawi, for example.
i would suggest you to move to Andorra.
it’s not the third world, the landscape is beautiful, and, when you will grow old and pragmatic, you will be just a few miles afar of the greatest wines and the best socialized medecine in the world.
Slavery and income taxation are the same thing.
…[/quote]
Tell that to a slave.
Taxation is not slavery. Taxation is not theft. Maybe you can equate taxation with extortion in some cases but your type of rhetoric makes intelligent discussion very difficult.[/quote]
It is the consequences of an actions that matter; I do not care what what words are made up by the established order to explain itself. The end result tells us all we need to know about an action.
Taking my money and telling me what I deserve to keep is most certainly slavery. At the end of the day I do not own my labor.
Don’t piss on me and tell me it’s rain.[/quote]
If I agree not to call piss rain will you agree not to call taxation slavery?
Slavery and income taxation are the same thing.
…[/quote]
Tell that to a slave.
Taxation is not slavery. Taxation is not theft. Maybe you can equate taxation with extortion in some cases but your type of rhetoric makes intelligent discussion very difficult.[/quote]
It is the consequences of an actions that matter; I do not care what what words are made up by the established order to explain itself. The end result tells us all we need to know about an action.
Taking my money and telling me what I deserve to keep is most certainly slavery. At the end of the day I do not own my labor.
Don’t piss on me and tell me it’s rain.[/quote]
If I agree not to call piss rain will you agree not to call taxation slavery?
[/quote]
It is the actions and their consequences – not the words to describe the actions – that matter. With taxation at the end of the day I have no choice. I am either a slave to some government here or a slave to a government somewhere else. That is no choice.
Slavery and income taxation are the same thing.
…[/quote]
Tell that to a slave.
Taxation is not slavery. Taxation is not theft. Maybe you can equate taxation with extortion in some cases but your type of rhetoric makes intelligent discussion very difficult.[/quote]
It is the consequences of an actions that matter; I do not care what what words are made up by the established order to explain itself. The end result tells us all we need to know about an action.
Taking my money and telling me what I deserve to keep is most certainly slavery. At the end of the day I do not own my labor.
Don’t piss on me and tell me it’s rain.[/quote]
If I agree not to call piss rain will you agree not to call taxation slavery?
[/quote]
It is the actions and their consequences – not the words to describe the actions – that matter. With taxation at the end of the day I have no choice. I am either a slave to some government here or a slave to a government somewhere else. That is no choice.
…like talking to a brick wall.[/quote]
You cannot differentiate between slavery and taxation so it is apparent you are the wall.
And if the words don’t matter please explain why you worry about calling piss rain.