Based on advice from this forum, I got the following tests in the TRT panel offered by DiscountedLabs (linked above)
Describe Diet [some create substantial damage with starvation diets]
No starvation diets ever
All programmed nutrition has been with a “GAIN MASS” focus
CURRENT: 2200 calories/day 35% protein; 35% carbs; 30% fats
Eggs, tuna, chicken, steak, beef jerkey, bell peppers, tomatoes, lettuce, almonds, avacado, bananas, peaches, mangos, whey and casein protein supps, whole Vit-D milk, light cheese sticks, Chobani fruit yogurt, oatmeal. Ice cream on cheat day !
Describe Training [some ruin their hormones by over training]
Heavy BB type lifting up until 5 years ago
Since then I haven’t done much to keep in shape (luckily my genetics have kept me relatively athletic looking)
At the lowest fitness level in my adult life
Runner as a teen - logged 5-10 miles a day up until I joined the service in 1992
Marine Corps from 1992-2001 - always a top performer on the Phyisical Fitness Test
Interval and light weight training while in the Corps
Only occasionally ran anything over the 3 miles for the PFT
Out of the Corps in 2001 - didn’t train much until 2005
Went back into the gym with the intent on “Getting BIG”
Built myself up (naturally) to about 200lbs - maintained 195 for several years with 5-6x week heavy lifting
Wasn’t very fit; just yoked
No dedicated training routine since 2013/2014
Started doing some crossfit training about 3 months ago
Also started strength training independent of the crossfit sessions
Trying to stay lower weight to help protect my muscles/joints
Testes Ache, Ever, With a Fever?
Never have had testes ache except for injury (kicked to groin in sports, etc.)
How Have Morning Wood and Nocturnal Erections Changed?
No morning erection in probably 3 years prior to seeking treatment
No nocturnal erections for probably longer than that but I just don’t remember
No issues with ED if/when I had sex with wife; it just became very infrequent
Day to day existence was a depressed, lethargic, no libido, no QOL whatsoever kinda life
When I first got on my T injections, I had morning wood, evening wood, lunch wood, great sleep, energy through the roof
That only lasted for 4-6 weeks and slowly tapered off
Still have morning erections once in a while (3 out of 7 days maybe) but not as strong or long
BUT
This is the same song, different verse as so many stories on this forum
I realize I probably either totally shot my E2 through the roof
OR I totally slammed it with the Anastrozole if I’m an over-responder
Not sure how the Clomid may have affected my progress but I have stopped taking it
TRT LOG |
NOTES:
6/20 Started Self Administer Protocol: - 140mg Test Cyp; 500iu of 1000iu/ml hCG 2x/wk; 1mg Anastrozole/wk
7/16 Started New EOD Protocol: 40mg (.2ml) Test EOD; 250iu hCG EOD; .25 mg Anastrozole (liquid) EOD
EOD Protocol: even days one month, odd days the next (as needed)
Body Temp Readings So Far (plan to do a 10 day average if I can quit forgetting in the AM
Iodized Salt Intake
Like many, I have been using “Sea Salt” for most of my meals for the last 5 years
I’ve already thrown out the sea salt grinder and replaced with an iodized salt-filled shaker
Have Iodoral 12.5mg tabs and 200mcg selenium caps sitting in my Amazon shopping cart if my temps suggest ID
Why Are You here?
Great question!
On 6/16, I moved from Houston to Pittsburgh
My wife was recruited to a new job in the steel city; I work from home
We were under her health insurance and new plan won’t kick in until 9/1 (41 days from now)
Scheduled to run out of Rx Test Cyp on 8/3/2017 so looking to get new Rx (defy or other online)
I am not opposed to paying OOP for meds but need to find new doc to get Rx
Before move, PA wrote me Rx that I picked up from compounding pharmacy so I would have Rx until I found new doc/clinic
My old treatment facility in Houston was decent but my PA is no longer there to write a new Rx
Didn’t get enough to last me through until I had medical insurance again (serious miscalculation on my part)
I started looking online to find facilities near Pittsburgh and stumbled on TNation
I have learned quite a bit from reading all the stickies and many of the users logs
I wanted to start my own log here so ya’ll would have my back story
Felt GREAT first 4-6 weeks and now (at 16 weeks in) I am back to foggy, moody, etc.
Body composition changes have been noticeable - Less midsection fat, fuller muscles, etc.
Workout routine - only been getting 3x/wk right now as muscle soreness is forcing “OFF” days
Wondering about stacking SERM(Clomid)+hCG and the affect it had on my E2 creating high T–>E2 inside the testes
Will have to wait for Labs to verify E2 level
Not looking to preserve fertility but don’t want to loose testes to shrinkage
Questions For The Forum?
I know my HEMOGLOBIN and HEMATOCRIT levels are rising. When should I donate blood?
I’ve been off now for almost 4 weeks, but how long to purge the Clomid after taking if for 6 weeks?
Does anyone see anything wrong with my protocol so far?
Anything glaring about my labs that I haven’t mentioned?
Recommendations for any other labs?
Is there any harm in my hCG dosing for simply keeping testicle size if I don’t care about fertility?
I’ve been having headaches all week that I cannot contribute to anything else so I’m paranoid that I’ve got something else going on to cause them (Maybe HEMO/HEMA)
I’ll chime in more later when not on my phone but I get headaches when my TT and FT get as high as yours. You may want to reduce your T dose to get closer to 900 TT. I was injecting 50 mg test cyp eod and have reduced it to 30 mg eod, which has helped my headaches and general feelings of hypertension.
Are you/were you lifting hard around blood draw? Liver markers are high which can elevate those numbers. High cholesterol is also caused by chronic systemic inflammation. Stay off statins. A little research will illustrate why.
Hematocrit seems ok, but you should still keep an eye on it, although it will become less of a concern if you lower your T dose. That being said, I don’t believe hematocrit or hemoglobin are your problem.
You’re already addressing low vit d with supplementation.
I don’t feel great with hcg 250 ius eod. I inject 125 ius twice per week to keep my testes alive. I also don’t care about fertility. I have strong estrogen sides with hcg so I have to keep the sides minimal.
At first glance, I would say that you’re chronically inflamed systemically and your T dose may be slightly too high coupled with slightly too low E.
I would reduce T dose slightly, along with AI and research all the ways to reduce inflammation. Most people should start with improving their gut health with plenty of pre&pro biotic foods like sauerkraut, kimchi etc. A lot of humans suffer from leaky gut.
Typically from my experience, hematocrit ranges can be followed/trusted for that marker, so I would donate if it gets marked high. The chance of it getting higher with a lower T dose is low and hematocrit should reduce as your blood serum testosterone reduces.
You may want to reduce AI dose slightly more than your plan. Your e2 is going to go down with a lower T dose, so instead of 8-9 drops, you may want to try 6, lest you lower your e2 further.
Also, isn’t your TT and FT above range at 40 mg eod? 30 mg eod may be a good place to start, but I may try 25 mg eod.
Double red blood cell donation should not change your other markers.
4 weeks should be enough time to stabilize after changes and get follow up blood work done.
Inflammation typically manifests itself with high cholesterol levels. Our arteries and blood vessels literally get inflamed and our bodies increase cholesterol blood serum levels to help mend the inflamed vessels, which causes plaque build up and cardiovascular disease.
Inflammation can cause thyroid and liver issues, as shown by your high Tsh and alt/aslt. For most, inflammation starts in the gut as leaky gut to varying degrees. It can also cause insulin resistance and diabetes in some people.
You may want to get additional thyroid labs. Tsh, ft4, ft3 and rt3.
You need to drop anastrozole by the same proportion as T to maintain E2 and maybe a bit more to get near E2=22pg/ml.
TSH was horrible:
dry skin
sparse outer eyebrows
feeling cold easier
low energy - yes
mood issues - yes
other problems similar and accumulative with low-T
Iodine deficiency affects everyone in a household. Women are more vulnerable to thyroid problems and have a greater need for iodine than men.
Thyroid affects cholesterol levels.
Iodine and selenium in your multi-vits and other trace elements?
Limit tuna - mercury
FT is fine. SHBG is elevated creating more non-bioavailable SHBG+T that inflates TT.
HTC is fine.
Total proteins and RBC seem low VS T levels, may change. If these stay low, consider having an occult blood test to rule in/out a low level GI bleed. Most men do not need any added iron unless there is a blood loss.
Joint pain: Try Rx 15mg meloxicam. 3 months supply for $10 at Walmart. You only take once a day. Works great for me, 6-8 naproxen per day did nothing but stress my kidneys.
hCG is to maintain the testes with an obvious fertility benefit for younger guys. Testes are important for sexual self-image for some or how one is regarded by wife/GF. Shrinking testes can ache 24x7 for some guys. Many report a mood boost with hCG, but things that boost mood can be transient.
How are you sleeping now?
Thanks for the great writeup and your dedication to detail is nice to see.
I’ll monitor hematocrit on subsequent labs just to make sure it doesn’t get too high
I injected today with 30mg Test Cyp; 125iu hCG; and took a single dose of 5 drops ( .139mg) Anastrozole
Starting 7/26 I’ll do 6 drops ( .1668mg) as my dose - did 5 drops this single time
I’m researching inflammation and leaky gut
In my initial research for causes of leaky gut, the sources consistently list coffee, medications, and alcohol as top potential causes
By background is not complete without detailing my use of these items:
Previously drank 6-8 12 to 14 ounce cups of coffee per day (72 - 112 oz)
At roughly 95mg caffeine per 8 oz. cup, that’s 855 - 1330mg per day
Mayo clinic advises that up to 400mg per day is safe for adults
Have reduced this to 1-2 per day in the last 4 days (this was coincidental as I didn’t know about leaky gut when I started to cut back)
This may be contributing to the god-awful headaches I’ve been having the last few days (getting off the caffeine)
Due to chronic back and joint pain, consistently took NSAIDs in above the recommended dosages
Used to pop ibuprofen in insanely high dosages (probably built up tolerances over time)
Switched to naproxen at recommendation of Dr. who said it would be less stress on my body
Initially, naproxen was more effective. Soon, regular dosages were not effective
Really trying to cut NSAIDs out as part of a general detox to allow my body to normalize
Alcohol - Recovering alcoholic, sober 14+ years
Wondering what long term alcohol abuse might still be having on my body after 14+ years
Knowing alcohol causes physical changes in the brain which affects brain chemistry, it wouldn’t surprise me if some of my symptoms now are related to former alcohol consumption
Saw someone mention their concern over dissolving AI in Vodka - not an issue for me
Next Steps
Obviously I have a lot going on so it’s going to take time to sort all of this out but I think I’ll adhere to this plan going forward
Give my body time to detox from caffeine
Give myself 4 weeks on new TRT protocol, new supplements (Vitamins, etc.)
Start iodine and selenium supplements to support thyroid (my AM/PM TEMPs are all over the board)
Get new labs for FT and E2 plus FT4, FT3, and RT3
Adjust fire as necessary on T and AI dosages
Continue to look for new Dr. here in Pittsburgh area (if anyone has any recommendations, please let me know)
As suggested by you and @Hostile, I am dropping my AI dose to account for lower T dose plus a little extra to try to get close to E2=22pg/ml.
I noted my TSH numbers from my labs in Sept 2016 (3.160 uIU/mL)
Thought I would get TSH from latest labs but didn’t specifically request it
You asked about other thyroid symptoms not previously stated so here’s my report on those:
dry skin - No
sparse outer eyebrows - No
feeling cold easier - No but my feet are always cold!
other problems similar and accumulative with low-T - I’m not sure I have any other symptoms not previously mentioned but if I come across any or develop new ones, I’ll post to this thread
AM/PM TEMPS are a MESS!!
My AM and PM TEMPS are a mess - totally all over the board so far
Trying to be more consistent and not miss taking temps
Date
AM TEMP
PM TEMP
7/19/2017
97.6
7/20/2017
97.6
98.7
7/21/2017
7/22/2017
96.8
98.4
7/23/2017
98.6
98.0
7/24/2017
96.9
**Note:** 7/23 AM Temp taken at 11:30 AM as I slept in after feeling ill from dinner
You asked how I was sleeping now and that’s a tough one to answer. I’ve had so many variables (new bed, new pillows, moved to new place, shoulder pain, TRT started, etc.) over the last few months that the quality of my sleep seems to be a moving target.
Slept great for first few weeks on TRT
Started having shoulder pain (cortisone shot wearing off) that kept waking me up for a while
Moved and got new bed (harder memory foam to help with low back) - Slept GREAT
Switched up pillows to try to get less stress on shoulder
All in all it’s been hard to nail down how I’m sleeping generally
Been some good nights and some horrible nights (some of that might have been due to caffeine - See my reply to Hostile)
Last night I slept best I have in months (coincidental or result of changes? We’ll see)
Next Steps
I plan to do IR with Iodoral and selenium as per your recommendations in Thyroid Basics Explained
These supps were ordered from Amazon today (7/24/2017)
Once past IR, my multi, Gaspari Anavite, contains 75 mcg Iodine (From Kelp) and 35mcg Selenium per serving
Limit tuna (high mercury content) or replace with Salmon (I eat this as a main protein source)
Keep an eye on my proteins and RBC relative to T levels
Ask new doc about Rx meloxicam - I looked this up and maybe it will help me as it has you
Keep hCG level at 125iu EOD and see where that takes me - possibly adjust higher as needed
Replace Sea Salt grinder with traditional salt shaker (already have iodized salt that I use in cooking sometimes)
Questions:
Once through IR, does my multi contain enough Iodine and Selenium for maintenance levels?
Is testing TSH again now that I’m on TRT a fools errand or does it makes sense to add it to my labs I plan to get 4 weeks from my changed T and AI dosing (around the 20th of August or so)?
Thanks for the compliment on my attention to detail.
I didn’t detail my tobacco use in my previous post which is a glaring oversight!!
I’ve used tobacco for the last 30+ years.
Started smoking and chewing at 14 (1985)
Smoked / chewed until 1992
Primarily chewed Copenhagen since 1992 with some smoking overlap
Haven’t smoked since 2003
Given my propensity for “some is good, more is better” addictive behavior, it’s no surprise that I chew a lot of Cope
This is obviously very impactful to my overall health and may be a major, if not primary, contributor to my TSH numbers and the markers suggesting inflammation.
Found This Study that suggests nicotine is a major culprit in raising overall inflammation in the body.
Next Steps
Develop a plan to quit nicotine
Had quit all tobacco for several years in the past (2003-2006) so need to do it again
Questions
What tests can/should I look at to see the results of quitting nicotine?
Said differently, aside from the obvious cancer concerns, which blood tests will be most affected once I quite tobacco/nicotine?
I’ll let KSman chime in regarding your thyroid questions. Most of what I know about the thyroid, I’ve learned from him. I also don’t know very much regarding nicotine and inflammation but it certainly wouldn’t surprise me at all to learn that it contributes to inflammation.
Caffeine may contribute to inflammation and stress without a doubt contributes to inflammation but there are many known and proven health benefits to coffee, so take that as you will.
Besides the addition of fermented foods and “cleaning up” your diet, some very helpful supplements (outside of vit d which you’re already supplementing) would be curcumin (biotest sells a great supplement that I like), fish oil/omega-3’s, and CBD oil. If you go the CBD route, ensure you’re getting a high quality source.
Many companies use just the seeds and not the entire plant, which reduces the cost but also greatly reduces the potency and usefulness. CW Hemp makes a great CBD oil that is less then 0.2% THC, which is the upper limit that companies can sell to states where marijuana is not legal.
Also, look at ways to help reduce and manage your stress. I like meditation, exercise/lifting as obvious outlets.
@Hostile - I ordered up a 30ml bottle of the CW CBD oil
TEMPS still all whacky (96.6 this morning and 98.1 yesterday evening)
Increased my Iodoral intake to 50mg (4x12.5mg tabs)
Haven’t noticed the tingling I felt the first couple of days
No negative gastrointestinal effects of Iodoral and selenium so far
Headaches still present
Noticed I have a stronger body odor (maybe the TRT, maybe the iodine) than normal
No morning or nocturnal erections this morning / last night
Today’s dosing: 30mg Test Cyp SC, 125iu hCG SC, 5 drops Ana
New medical insurance kicks in on August 21
Will get an appt to find a new Dr. here in Pittsburgh (need new Rx)
Slept great past 2 nights but my shoulder has really been bothering me. Got the CBD oil to help with general inflammation and hopefully it helps the chronic shoulder
QUESTIONS?
@KSman or @Hostile, how long does it normally take with the iodine supplementation to start stabilizing the temperature ranges? It seems like it’s been a mixed bag from reading other people’s logs; some level out rather quickly and some take longer. Is that your understanding too (that’s there isn’t a general rule of thumb here)?
Didn’t have headache for 2 days (Friday and Saturday) then had sex last night and headaches are back
Thinking that I aggravated something lifting (my headaches coincide with first “legs day” in a while
Will monitor this and see how long it takes for these “tension” / “sexual” headaches to go away
Met a guy at the gym on Saturday who referred me to a local Dr. who is TRT friendly
Made appt with the new Dr. for August 30 so I’ll continue current protocol until then
Will wait for new labs until I see new Dr. so that will be 6 weeks on new protocol before new labs
Feeling much better the past 3 days (other than the headaches)
Today is 4th day on Iodine/Iodide (Iodoral) @ 50mg (4x12.5mg) + Selenium and other supps
CBD oil should be delivered on 8/2 so I’m hoping adding that will help my overall joint pain
QUESTIONS? - Same as last time
@KSman or @Hostile, how long does it normally take with the iodine supplementation to start stabilizing the temperature ranges? Mine are still rather low in the AM and not getting all the way to 98.6.
I was waiting for KSman to reply, because he’s more knowledgeable with thyroid topics than myself, but I’ll chime in.
#1 Fish oil is like a poor mans CBD oil. I take both. I also get exertion head aches after lifting. I take fish oil and CBD directly after my workouts which greatly helps those head aches.
#2 Your body temp question not only depends on iodine intake. Iodine is the fuel our thyroid needs to produce the pertinent hormones. The issues arises with rt3, which I indicated previously you need to get tested. The reason rt3 is important is because it effectively blocks your ft3, which is the gasoline in the engine of our mitochondria. Even if your thyroid is pumping out ft3, if your rt3 is high, it will negate the effects of “optimal” ft3.
rt3 becomes high in times of stress, whether is physical, psychological, emotional, immunological etc.
If iodine replacement hasn’t successfully restored your body temps after a couple of weeks, it’s likely that your rt3 is high, especially if tsh, ft4 and ft3 are optimal.
You know for the first 3 months of TRT I would get sex headaches, but this past weekend for the first time I didn’t get one even after having sex three times in one day. You’ll get to a point where it doesn’t happen any longer, it took 15 weeks for me to get to this point and improvements are happening quickly now.
Taking larger dose iodine will increase TSH and then TSH lab results are rather meaningless.
Many have responded to IR quite rapidly. In my case this was not happening anymore and rT3 was suspected and desiccated thyroid did not work, time release T3 did. So no simple answers. Some cases are complicated. Sometimes thyroid antibodies need to be checked if we are dealing with more than iodine deficiency.
Have you tried magnesium supplements? If you get leg/foot cramps or can contract a muscle and lock it up, you are deficient and many are. Might relate to some of your other issues.
I am having trouble keep up with this forum, too popular!
Thanks, @Hostile - I’m going to ride out the new labs until I have an appointment with my new Dr. here in Pittsburgh (August 30th) but I will certainly build a list of things to test for when I go in
Thyroid panel to include: TSH, Free T3, Free T4, and rT3
Total and free testosterone
Estradiol
SHBG
CBC panel
CMP
Lipids
Sounds like I’ll need to give the Iodoral / selenium some more time and keep checking temps
QUESTIONS?
Does it make sense to get Thyroid antibodies tested at this time or should I wait to see results of other labs?
|
