CBO New Numbers: 9.8 Trillion over 10 yrs

This is a problem with sources that will say anything to advance their agenda. There were conservative (or at least so self-described) commentators reporting for example that the legislation would cost Caterpillar $100 million this year without mentioning that that was relative to and involving some huge government subsidies they were getting.

As soon as I found that out – which wasn’t hard to do, so those sources must have known it – my view was “Boo-hoo.”

A further result is that the credibility of those sources goes down. Next time they might present the whole truth, but I’d suspect not until I went into the matter myself.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

DrSkeptix forgot the / in the terminating quote tag =]

This was the largest and most audaciously flagrant mass of budgetary bullshit ever perpetrated upon this country, bar none. With the other big programs of decades past it could at least be argued that the proponents believed they would remain manageable. That’s bad enough, but these people know full well that this is an economic holocaust in the making.[/quote]

Doc amd Tirib, yep.

Either pass the monstrosity and have the audacity to pay for it, or don’t pass it.

Instead we have a (term-limited) President and (old) Speaker who won’t be around to make the actual hard choices that will be necessary to adequately fund this “reform”. That awful job - some Congress and President in the future - will be faced with the inevitable choice of decreasing the entitlement spending or actually closing the revenue loophole (e.g., enacting the Cadillac tax). Just not the vanguard of the “movement”, who get to slip away and boast about the sugar high helping humanity with the passage of this short-sighted bill while their children have to do all the hard work.

We can’t avoid the hard trade-offs of the real world, and someone in the future is going to have do the unpopular work of fixing the utopianism of the Obama/Pelosi bill (while at the same time trying to find a way to make Social Security solvent through benefit cuts and raising the age of eligibility).

Just don’t tell the “progressives”, who only pay lip service to the principle of “sustainability”.[/quote]
It’s unconscionable and illustrates in strobing neon just what sacrifices these people are willing for US to make to see their agenda advanced.

I’m now asking you outright. Do you see ill intent toward the status of the United Sates as a superpower going forward in the actions of these politicians?

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

I’m now asking you outright. Do you see ill intent toward the status of the United Sates as a superpower going forward in the actions of these politicians?[/quote]

Not sure I understand the question exactly - are you asking if I think the Obama/Pelosi axis are directly hostile to US exceptionalism and are actively trying to diminish that status?

Here’s some excerpts (actually a lot of excerpts from The Economist:

“What will it mean for America? The short answer is that the reforms will expand coverage dramatically, but at a heavy cost to the taxpayer. They will also do far too little to rein in the underlying drivers of America’s roaring health inflation. Analysis by RAND, an independent think-tank, suggests that the reforms will actually increase America’s overall health spending - public plus private - by about 2% by 2020, in comparison with a scenario of no reform. And that rate of spending was already unsustainable at a time when the baby-boomers are starting to retire in large numbers.”

“They [Republicans] point to recent studies done by Cato Institute, a libertarian think-tank, which, they claim, are early warnings of trouble to come. Cato recently examined the impact of introducing health reforms similar to Obamacare in Massachusetts a few years ago. It estimates that the law has not improved people’s health, but has let to a “substantial crowdout of private coverage” and to 60% fewer young (and presumably healthy) adults moving to the state. It claims that the “leading estimates understate the law’s cost by at least one third.” Premiums have also risen.”

“If coverage is the new lawâ??s strong point, cost control is its weakness. That is not to say that most ordinary people will pay more for coverage, as critics of reform noisily insist. True, some of those forced to buy insurance will earn too much to qualify for subsidies, and so will be spending more than they do todayâ??but, in return, they will get insurance plans that offer more generous coverage than current basic plans. What is more, many other Americans may end up with lower premiums.”

“The vast majority of workers enjoy health insurance today through employer-provided schemes. RAND estimates that by 2019 the employer-provided system will benefit from 6m new (mostly healthy) customers, and that premiums for everyone in that system will drop by 2% versus business-as-usual.”

“Fine, but what about costs to the federal government and the overall health system? The Congressional Budget Office (CBO), a non-partisan agency, estimates that the new health reforms will cost the federal government some $940 billion over the next decade. Of that, roughly $400 billion will be spent by 2020 on the subsidies and about $500 billion on increased spending on Medicaid.”

“But that underestimates the full cost of this new reform. Elizabeth McGlynn of RAND points out that the huge numbers of newly insuredâ??who now typically skip medical care or simply turn up, in a crisis, in emergency roomsâ??will soon consume a lot of routine medical services. She thinks this spending will expand the countryâ??s health outlays even more than the direct cost to the federal exchequer.”

“For example, insist critics, a big chunk of the savings is made up of politically implausible cuts in doctorsâ?? reimbursements (known as the â??doc fixâ??) and in Medicare, the government health scheme for the elderly. Also, some of the income provisions will kick in soon, but the main spending on subsidies will not begin until 2014â??skewing the ten-year analysis. The cost to the government of expanding coverage over the ten years from 2014 to 2023 will be $1.6 trillion, not $940 billion.”

“Such talk infuriates Peter Orszag, the head of the White Houseâ??s Office of Management and Budget and the administrationâ??s most important health expert. He insists all the fuss about ten-year windows obscures three big ways in which this reform will curb costs, by shifting the incentives in the delivery system to reward value and results rather than mere piecework (or â??fee for serviceâ??).”

“The first big idea that he stresses is the creation of a new agency to spearhead innovation and scale up any of the many pilot schemes contained in the bills that manage to reform delivery or payment systems. It is true that the reform effort began with earnest intent to â??bend the cost curveâ??. Alas, explains Mark McClellan of the Brookings Institution, the most meaningful proposals have since been watered down or delayed.”

“The second lever of change that Mr Orszag says is underappreciated is an excise tax introduced on the most expensive (or â??Cadillacâ??) insurance plans. Most economists like this idea, as it is likely to discourage excessive consumption of health care. Unfortunately, because of political pressure from labour unions and other groups, the Cadillac tax has been diluted, and delayed until 2018. Sceptics wonder if a future Congress will really implement this tax when the time comes. Mr Orszag is right that, if implemented, this provision will represent an important lever of cost control. But itâ??s a big â??ifâ??.”

“The third and strongest argument Mr Orszag makes is for the potential of an independent payment-advisory board on Medicare spending. Under the new law this group is to make recommendations to Congress on how to reduce the rate of growth in spending per head in Medicare if that expenditure exceeds a target figure.”

“Sceptics abound. Yes, the approach succeeded when used by the Pentagon to decide which military bases to shut down. But an earlier version of this idea, known as MedPAC, flopped because Congress simply ignored even worthy ideas that proved politically inconvenient. And the new law carves out a ten-year exemption for hospitalsâ??appalling, when one considers that runaway costs and misaligned incentives in hospitals lie at the very heart of the cost problem. But Mr Orszag believes this approach will help in two ways: it insulates tough decisions from politics, and it encourages ongoing reform rather than one-shot heroics. Critics say that is a lot of faith to put in a weakened body.”

“All this points to the only certain thing about Obamacare: that this is just another episode in the long saga of health reform. Indeed, by adding tens of millions of people to an unreformed and unsustainably expensive health system, this reform makes it all the more urgent to tackle the question of cost.”

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

I’m now asking you outright. Do you see ill intent toward the status of the United Sates as a superpower going forward in the actions of these politicians?[/quote]

Not sure I understand the question exactly - are you asking if I think the Obama/Pelosi axis are directly hostile to US exceptionalism and are actively trying to diminish that status?
[/quote]
To varying degrees from individual to individual, but especially in the case of Obama, yes.

Whats the explanation for this agenda as a whole if not to intentionally harm the long term strength of the country? Ignorance? Stupidity? I reject the notion that the American left of today is well intentioned and wants the U.S. to remain as strong or stronger than she’s been but is simply misguided.

I say their fanatical quest for a mythical fair, just and level WORLD community defines the United States as the one great and ponderous impediment to that vision. We must be tamed if ever their utopian fantasy is to come to pass. They do not see borders and individual national sovereignty the same way most of us actually still do. They see one big cuddly at least for now western socialist world with the United States stubbornly refusing to climb down off her throne. They see it as their moral duty to vacate that throne by just about whatever means necessary.

A parade of Obama appointments and nominees all over the place have flat out stated this.

Do you agree at all with this assessment? This is no trick, I’m seriously interested in what you think. Don’t be shy now. You can tell me I’m a screwball if that’s what you think.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

To varying degrees from individual to individual, but especially in the case of Obama, yes.[/quote]

I firmly believe that Obama - an unalloyed creature of left-wing politics and thinking (not necessarily liberalism), particularlyt the academic strain - believes American exceptionalism and any idea in support of it is fundamentally tainted with a kind of Original Sin in left-wing, class/gender/race thinking and I believe he means to diminish what we think of as American exceptionalism that has both driven American liberalism (think FDR) and American conservatism (think Reagan).

I agree - strength is perceived as a sin by the Left’s lights. Look at any aspect of politics - attaining wealth or really any kind of material security is sinful (always done so at someone’s expense). Being a foreign superpower is done at “humanity’s” expense. There is something morally repugnant (in the eyes of the Left) at differing levels of strength, because such differences are obviously examples of unequality.

Instead of the view of the strong using its strength to help the weak (the Second Helping theory of “welfare”), the Left thinks the strong need to be pulled down the level of everyone else because they strength was ill-gotten.

I agree with the spirit of this, even though I don’t indulge the New World Order conspiracy nonsense. But truthfully, the idea is based in utopianism, and the great irony is that none of the other countries actually believe it - they all play for keeps.

Think of it: the EU - the entity we point to as the prime example of the statist, “world socialism” curse - formed and couldn’t wait to use its new combined “heft” to compete with the US’ might. No one - not even the “one world” socialist types - play by such silly rules.

Yes, I agree - anyone who bothers to read, it’s there. Prior to the election, there was no doubt in my mind that this was the Obama vision: one of Leftism, not liberalism.

Which is why, of course, the campaign was to pitch Obama as a Clinton-esque pragmatist. Everyone with a brain knows a government that operates by these left-wing assumptions would never get outrightly elected in a center-right country - and which is why you see such strong levels of disapproval among Independents.

Screwball. Kidding.

I don’t think your thesis is radical or controversial. Of course, Obamabots don’t want to admit because of the obvious political consequences of such an admission.

This is new for America - our presidents of both parties have typically agreed on one assumption of American exceptionalism. They may have defined it their own way, but the assumption really wasn’t in question. Not so now.

And this is not the piqued critique of a “right winger”. I’m admittedly conservative, but I detest radicalism, wherever it pops up on the political spectrum. And the New Assumption - incubating dormantly in the halls of academia and urban salons - now has an expression in the White House, and it is radical enough to deserve all the scorn we can pour on it.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
<<< An outstanding response to my post >>>

This is new for America <<<>>> and it is radical enough to deserve all the scorn we can pour on it.
[/quote]
My language and demeanor may (or my not) make you wince on occasion, but I concur with every syllable of your response and I read it very carefully.

I don’t think the American left wants to rule the world or wants anybody else to rule it either. They want a utopia. A utopia in which all nations and peoples willingly share a common pool of resources for the equal good of all with the enlightened benevolent elite of the several nations at their respective helms joining hands in the maintenance of that vision.

Not a world “order”, but certainly a world community or neighborhood if you will. Some will read this and say “well what the hell’s wrong with that?” I am not up to preempting that inevitable line of thinking at the moment.

And yes, this IS new. We have never had this kind of raw hard left ideology at this level. As soon as I saw where he went to church I knew and that was long before I had ever heard anything from Jeremiah Wright.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

DrSkeptix forgot the / in the terminating quote tag =]

This was the largest and most audaciously flagrant mass of budgetary bullshit ever perpetrated upon this country, bar none. With the other big programs of decades past it could at least be argued that the proponents believed they would remain manageable. That’s bad enough, but these people know full well that this is an economic holocaust in the making.[/quote]

Doc amd Tirib, yep.

Either pass the monstrosity and have the audacity to pay for it, or don’t pass it.

Instead we have a (term-limited) President and (old) Speaker who won’t be around to make the actual hard choices that will be necessary to adequately fund this “reform”. That awful job - some Congress and President in the future - will be faced with the inevitable choice of decreasing the entitlement spending or actually closing the revenue loophole (e.g., enacting the Cadillac tax). Just not the vanguard of the “movement”, who get to slip away and boast about the sugar high helping humanity with the passage of this short-sighted bill while their children have to do all the hard work.

We can’t avoid the hard trade-offs of the real world, and someone in the future is going to have do the unpopular work of fixing the utopianism of the Obama/Pelosi bill (while at the same time trying to find a way to make Social Security solvent through benefit cuts and raising the age of eligibility).

Just don’t tell the “progressives”, who only pay lip service to the principle of “sustainability”.[/quote]

With attention to various terminating tags, let me offer another example of CBO misdirection which may be instructive for many of us, Trib and Gambit Lost included.

It has been often cited that the CBO estimates of the costs of MediCare Part D were initially generously high, by about 20% at times.

By the pro-ObamaCare folks, this is taken as proof that we will all save even more money. Not so; there is another lesson.

What the CBO could not account for was the introductin of competition among the private intermediaries-the insurance companies–who offered different products and coverage for senior to choose. I do not know if total costs are less because of less aggregate demand or because of lower prices. It may be the case that both effects were promoted by this example of “market forces.”

This is not hot news; elsewhere I have referred to the work of Mark V. Pauly who has worked for 35 years on the simple theory: motivated and educated consumers, and free market principles, serve to provide for efficient social services.

So where in the 3000 pages of ObamaCare is the policy conducive to savings and cost control? Gambit Lost may want to expand/change it but so much would suggest an alternative choice.

Just wait when the baby boomers all go on Medicare in the next few years, I bet those savings and cost reduction strategies are really gonna pay off. Do these people consider that the large portion of health care costs come during the golden years of people’s lives?

[quote]John S. wrote:
It will be much higher then that.

The CBO is well known for massively underestimating entitlement programs. [/quote]

Actually, the CBO has a history of underestimating savings in Medicare.

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]John S. wrote:
It will be much higher then that.

The CBO is well known for massively underestimating entitlement programs. [/quote]

Actually, the CBO has a history of underestimating savings in Medicare.
[/quote]

Well, I’m glad I can make an educated judgment between the two of you. This is a pretty pure factual debate gents, wanna give it a go?

mike

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

The analysis also found that revenues would be $1.4 trillion, or 4 percent, below CBO’s baseline projections from 2011 to 2020, [b]mainly because of the president’s proposals to index the thresholds for the alternative minimum tax for inflation starting at their 2009 levels and to extend many of the tax cuts from 2001 and 2003 scheduled to expire at the end of the year.[b] Other proposals in the budget, including changes to the healthcare system would increase net revenues. [/b][/quote]
[/b]
Oh, come on! You are usually better than that!

The CBO estimates are limited by law to consider only standing law and regulation and not political realities.

So, the CBO estimates left out the real costs that will come. For example,
–just to fix the MediCare “sustainable growth” formula, by which doctors are supposed to decrease their take by 21%, will cost $238 billion per year…this was left out. That is an annual $238 billion credit which will not exist.
–the “Cadillac plan” tax, which was so politically damaging that it was left out of the law now, is presumed to be passed in 2018. If it could not pass in 2010, who but a starry-eyed liberal would believe it will be passed in 2018 and bring in the revenues projected by the CBO?
–Did the CBO include the $500 billion additional reduction in MediCare payments? Yes. Does anyone think the system will continue working if this cut in funding is continued through 2018, by which time 78 million additional entitled seniors will be enrolled in MediCare? No.

In the National HQ of the Democratic National Party, they are laughing their asses off, because the rubes believe their propaganda.[/quote]

???

I’m “better than” underlining and bolding part of the link that the OP (and others!) had obviously misread or misunderstood? Did you expect me to add a cocky comment as well, perhaps?

By the way, good job at being the first person on this thread to make a point that wasn’t made up. When you are done being butt-sore, perhaps you should post such information on a thread that isn’t based upon misreadings/miscomprehension and we could begin to talk about what needs to happen from this point forward (as, I believe, I’ve suggested earlier). I actually enjoy reading your posts when you’re not playing the role of pissed off old dude who spews republican talking points. We have plenty of that here.

Also, for fun, if you want to continue talking about how republicans were kept out of the political process “in April,” you could check out the comments coming out of Grassley’s office. From “they locked us out” to taking credit for provisions in the bill in, what?, 2 days flat.

Sorry “your side” (apparently) lost. Time to think about how the congress needs to change/(expand!)/modify/whatever this bill to deal with additional issues/problems. No one is going to “repeal” pre-existing conditions, so we might as well talk about how this bill can continue to change for the better. …or you can continue to play pissed-off old dude and scream “repeal!” Either way works I suppose.

[/quote]

So, i guess this is your way of saying, “Gosh! I was wrong and totally ignorant of the facts!”

Apology accepted.[/quote]

So, I guess this is your way of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying, “I can’t hear you! I can’t hear you!”

Have fun with that.

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:

[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:

The analysis also found that revenues would be $1.4 trillion, or 4 percent, below CBO’s baseline projections from 2011 to 2020, [b]mainly because of the president’s proposals to index the thresholds for the alternative minimum tax for inflation starting at their 2009 levels and to extend many of the tax cuts from 2001 and 2003 scheduled to expire at the end of the year.[b] Other proposals in the budget, including changes to the healthcare system would increase net revenues. [/b][/quote]
[/b]
Oh, come on! You are usually better than that!

The CBO estimates are limited by law to consider only standing law and regulation and not political realities.

So, the CBO estimates left out the real costs that will come. For example,
–just to fix the MediCare “sustainable growth” formula, by which doctors are supposed to decrease their take by 21%, will cost $238 billion per year…this was left out. That is an annual $238 billion credit which will not exist.
–the “Cadillac plan” tax, which was so politically damaging that it was left out of the law now, is presumed to be passed in 2018. If it could not pass in 2010, who but a starry-eyed liberal would believe it will be passed in 2018 and bring in the revenues projected by the CBO?
–Did the CBO include the $500 billion additional reduction in MediCare payments? Yes. Does anyone think the system will continue working if this cut in funding is continued through 2018, by which time 78 million additional entitled seniors will be enrolled in MediCare? No.

In the National HQ of the Democratic National Party, they are laughing their asses off, because the rubes believe their propaganda.[/quote]

???

I’m “better than” underlining and bolding part of the link that the OP (and others!) had obviously misread or misunderstood? Did you expect me to add a cocky comment as well, perhaps?

By the way, good job at being the first person on this thread to make a point that wasn’t made up. When you are done being butt-sore, perhaps you should post such information on a thread that isn’t based upon misreadings/miscomprehension and we could begin to talk about what needs to happen from this point forward (as, I believe, I’ve suggested earlier). I actually enjoy reading your posts when you’re not playing the role of pissed off old dude who spews republican talking points. We have plenty of that here.

Also, for fun, if you want to continue talking about how republicans were kept out of the political process “in April,” you could check out the comments coming out of Grassley’s office. From “they locked us out” to taking credit for provisions in the bill in, what?, 2 days flat.

Sorry “your side” (apparently) lost. Time to think about how the congress needs to change/(expand!)/modify/whatever this bill to deal with additional issues/problems. No one is going to “repeal” pre-existing conditions, so we might as well talk about how this bill can continue to change for the better. …or you can continue to play pissed-off old dude and scream “repeal!” Either way works I suppose.

[/quote]

So, i guess this is your way of saying, “Gosh! I was wrong and totally ignorant of the facts!”

Apology accepted.[/quote]

So, I guess this is your way of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying, “I can’t hear you! I can’t hear you!”

Have fun with that.
[/quote]

Please see my last post, supra.

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]John S. wrote:
It will be much higher then that.

The CBO is well known for massively underestimating entitlement programs. [/quote]

Actually, the CBO has a history of underestimating savings in Medicare.
[/quote]

Just like they did with Social Security. Woo Hoo!

Social security is not Medicare. Woo hoo!

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Social security is not Medicare. Woo hoo!

[/quote]

Ok, then.

Please site the examples of the CBO overestimating MediCare expenditures.
I gave you my example. It is your turn, and we all will appreciate a source for the information, in order to examine its premises.

Doesn’t medicare cost like 10x(when adjusted for inflation) the amount the CBO said it would cost.

The cost of Medicare is a good place to begin. At its start, in 1966, Medicare cost $3 billion. The House Ways and Means Committee estimated that Medicare would cost only about $ 12 billion by 1990 (a figure that included an allowance for inflation). This was a supposedly “conservative” estimate. But in 1990 Medicare actually cost $107 billion.

So what do I win? Its not the CBO estimates but I don’t really feel like searching through the internet to find the old CBO scores for it.

[quote]John S. wrote:
Doesn’t medicare cost like 10x(when adjusted for inflation) the amount the CBO said it would cost.

The cost of Medicare is a good place to begin. At its start, in 1966, Medicare cost $3 billion. The House Ways and Means Committee estimated that Medicare would cost only about $ 12 billion by 1990 (a figure that included an allowance for inflation). This was a supposedly “conservative” estimate. But in 1990 Medicare actually cost $107 billion.

So what do I win? Its not the CBO estimates but I don’t really feel like searching through the internet to find the old CBO scores for it.[/quote]

You win…naught.

The CBO was established in 1974 as a reaction against the Nixon’s (Executive Branch’s) OMB.

There is an apocryphal story about the cost estimates of MediCare presented by Wilbur Cohen to LBJ and Senator Richard Russell in1965.
“6 billion dollars!” hooted LBJ. “Shut your ass, Wilbur. If anyone finds out, it will never be voted in.”

What goes on the minds in these people who continue to trust a government that has a practically universal failure rate at predicting the cost of anything it’s ever done?

Fool me once, shame on you.

Fool me twice, shame on me.

Fool me for decades hundreds of times about the same thing and what? Institutionalized care?

What is the mystical intoxicating power of delusion that government holds over these people.

Whatever anybody says _________ will cost, it will be more… by a whole lot. Count on it.

This.