[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
The holiday of Christmas is pagan. There is no proof anywhere in the Bible of the day of Jesus’ birth. That is the truth.[/quote]
No, it’s another example of your half truths. Do you need proof that Jesus was born?
As I said, much of it - the date, many of the customs, etc - are pagan. The origins of Christmas are extremely complex. THIS^ little summary, however, is false. But works well in one sense at least: it’s nice and catchy, easy to remember, and easy to recite rapidly when someone’s trying to close the door. [/quote]
Well at least we agree that the date and many of the customs are pagan. So what are the origins of Christmas then?[/quote]
Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Our Savior. And, more fundamentally, the entire Season celebrates the the Mystery of the Incarnation. [/quote]
OK, but what are the origins of Christmas? [/quote]
Now this is detailed! It will answer all questions about origin and reason.
[/quote]
Now see, that just won’t do Pat. It’s too long and complicated 
[/quote]
I’ve been reading these post and I thought I’d chime in. Katz you have it wrong when you say that the Catholic church started before the Bible. Honest lifter has it exactly right in that Constantine melded Roman pagan beliefs with Christian beliefs and started Catholicism in the forth century AD. Before that there was no church. A church is a building or place of worship. What started in 33 C.E. with the Apostles and Jesus’ followers is the Christian Congregation. This was the true Christian religion. But Jesus at Matthew 24:11 stated that many false prophets would arise and mislead many. And this started to happen in the first century A.D. because the Bible writers warned of this in their letters. Paul states this at Acts 20:29 and 30 where he states that opressive wolves would enter into the flock and speak twisted things and draw disciple away to themselves. Paul warns at Colossian 2:8 where he states:
“Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry YOU off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ.”
There are many other scriptures that warn to not deviate beyond the things Jesus taught. But these warning didn’t stop this from happening. In fact Jesus prophysied that this would happen with the wheat and the weeds illustration. Jesus foretold that apostates, like weeds sown among wheat, would infiltrate the Christian congregation and mislead many.
God’s dealing with the nation of Israel shows that God cares about how he is worshiped. God repeatedly warned the Israelites to not mix in the forms of worship that the surrounding nations practiced. Baal worship was popular with some of the surrouding nations, when the Israelites started to include this in their worship to God, he did not say… well it’s okay, they’re still following the Mosaic Law and worshipping me I don’t mind that they’re practicing something false. No, once the Israelite mixed in Baal worship with their God directed worship he repeatedly warned them and eventually let the surrounding nations conquer them as a punishment.
The problem I see with most Christian religions is that when they see the Bible clearly addresses a subject they don’t adjust their thinking to be in line with the Bibles. For example, the problem that the Catholic church is experiencing with the sexual abuse by the priest, many blame this on the fact that they can’t marry. Now I’m not saying that this is 100% the reason, it may or may not be. But the Bible is clear on this subject. Notice what
1 Timothy 4:1-3 states:
However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to MISLEADING INSPIRED UTTERANCES AND TEACHINGS OF DEMONS, by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; FORBIDDING TO MARRY, commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be partaken of with thanksgiving by those who have faith and accurately know the truth."
FORBIDDING TO MARRY is a teaching of demons. This is clear and direct. So you’d think that when the Catholic Clergy class read these verses they would adjust their thinking and say that it is now OK to marry. The bible actually encourages marriage at 1 Corinthians 7:8,9:
“Now I say to the unmarried persons and the widows, it is well for them that they remain even as I am. But if they do not have self-control, let them marry, for it is better to marry than to be inflamed with passion.”
So why would the larget Christian religion not adjust there thinking when they see a clear and direct scripture that not only states that it is wrong to practice something but actually states that it is a teaching of demons? Do you think God has changed? Do you think that he approves of a group that believes a teaching of a demon and makes it an official doctrine. He did not accept this with the Israelites and he inspired Bible writers to warn of the same thing in the Christian-Greek scriptures so it is clear that he did not accept this with the Christian congregation.
When my religion was in it’s infancy we believed things that were contrary to Bible teaching, but when we would see this we as a group would adjust our thinking and change our beliefs to be inline with the Bibles.