Catholicism - Heart and Soul of a Great Nation

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Christmas is completely pagan.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm[/quote]

I have seen your sort come knocking on my door - curiously, even as a child I could tell there was something terribly wrong; I couldn’t put my finger on it; there was something in the vacant stare; the relentless harping on a obscure point that no one really cared about but the persistant interlocutor; a point that that was isolated and pinned to the wall like a dead butterfly waiting for vivisection for no purpose other than winning an argument; an obsession with logic chopping; a certain lack of charm and humor. Then I saw the Body Snatchers and finally I was able to identify what the problem was and still is.

As the inestimable Father George Rutler said in a recent sermon: “When the Church proclaims the teachings of the Risen Christ most powerfully, her antagonists pay her the compliment of getting angry, especially in the holiest season of the year. The Russian Orthodox, I am told, say that when God builds a church, Satan pitches a tent outside.”[/quote]

I don’t understand how that applies to what I said about Christmas. I said Christmas was pagan, and then gave you one of many sources.[/quote]

So celebrating Christmas makes us Pagan? I guess since you guys dont worship Jesus that makes his birth pagan. We celebrate Christmas to welcome the birth of Christ the Messiah.

Keep putting up as many Watchtower endorsed internet sites that you can. Your knowledge of the Bible does not mean you know God.

22

[quote]Kanada wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]Kanada wrote:
The church of God and the Catholic Church are the same in name only. In a similar vein, the Protestant denominations are usually equally warped from their founding. Martin Luther rebelled against the Catholic Church because of the corruption and decadence, along with the deism of the Pope. Similar to Father Mackey in South Park confronting the Catholic Church over sexual abuse. They worshiped a giant spider.

So while katzen has a wonderful story for us, its kinda irrelevant. The Catholic Church lost its mandate from heaven the moment it legitimized itself, and no longer served God but themselves.[/quote]

The Catholic Church is filled with sinners. Yup. So?

[/quote]

Well, more like The Catholic Church is not the sole avenue to God
[/quote]

I might be speaking for Katz, but the Catholics beleive that we Protestants are brothers and sisters in Christ. You do not have to be Catholic to go to heaven. I am Southern Baptist, and I will say I will see my Catholic Brothers and Sisters in Heaven if we all believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father.

23

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Kanada wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]Kanada wrote:
The church of God and the Catholic Church are the same in name only. In a similar vein, the Protestant denominations are usually equally warped from their founding. Martin Luther rebelled against the Catholic Church because of the corruption and decadence, along with the deism of the Pope. Similar to Father Mackey in South Park confronting the Catholic Church over sexual abuse. They worshiped a giant spider.

So while katzen has a wonderful story for us, its kinda irrelevant. The Catholic Church lost its mandate from heaven the moment it legitimized itself, and no longer served God but themselves.[/quote]

The Catholic Church is filled with sinners. Yup. So?

[/quote]

Well, more like The Catholic Church is not the sole avenue to God
[/quote]

I might be speaking for Katz, but the Catholics beleive that we Protestants are brothers and sisters in Christ. You do not have to be Catholic to go to heaven. I am Southern Baptist, and I will say I will see my Catholic Brothers and Sisters in Heaven if we all believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father. [/quote]

I wholeheartedly agree my friend.

24

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Christmas is completely pagan.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm[/quote]

I have seen your sort come knocking on my door - curiously, even as a child I could tell there was something terribly wrong; I couldn’t put my finger on it; there was something in the vacant stare; the relentless harping on a obscure point that no one really cared about but the persistant interlocutor; a point that that was isolated and pinned to the wall like a dead butterfly waiting for vivisection for no purpose other than winning an argument; an obsession with logic chopping; a certain lack of charm and humor. Then I saw the Body Snatchers and finally I was able to identify what the problem was and still is.

As the inestimable Father George Rutler said in a recent sermon: “When the Church proclaims the teachings of the Risen Christ most powerfully, her antagonists pay her the compliment of getting angry, especially in the holiest season of the year. The Russian Orthodox, I am told, say that when God builds a church, Satan pitches a tent outside.”[/quote]

I don’t understand how that applies to what I said about Christmas. I said Christmas was pagan, and then gave you one of many sources.[/quote]

So celebrating Christmas makes us Pagan? I guess since you guys dont worship Jesus that makes his birth pagan. We celebrate Christmas to welcome the birth of Christ the Messiah.

Keep putting up as many Watchtower endorsed internet sites that you can. Your knowledge of the Bible does not mean you know God.[/quote]

The holiday of Christmas is pagan. There is no proof anywhere in the Bible of the day of Jesus’ birth. The holiday is based off a Saturnalia, God of Saturn, and given a “christian” name. That is the truth.

The article I referenced earlier had nothing to do with my religion. The origins of Christmas are relatively well known.

Knowledge of the Bible does not mean you know God ? What does that mean?

25

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]Kanada wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]Kanada wrote:
The church of God and the Catholic Church are the same in name only. In a similar vein, the Protestant denominations are usually equally warped from their founding. Martin Luther rebelled against the Catholic Church because of the corruption and decadence, along with the deism of the Pope. Similar to Father Mackey in South Park confronting the Catholic Church over sexual abuse. They worshiped a giant spider.

So while katzen has a wonderful story for us, its kinda irrelevant. The Catholic Church lost its mandate from heaven the moment it legitimized itself, and no longer served God but themselves.[/quote]

The Catholic Church is filled with sinners. Yup. So?

[/quote]

Well, more like The Catholic Church is not the sole avenue to God
[/quote]

I might be speaking for Katz, but the Catholics beleive that we Protestants are brothers and sisters in Christ. You do not have to be Catholic to go to heaven. I am Southern Baptist, and I will say I will see my Catholic Brothers and Sisters in Heaven if we all believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father. [/quote]

Personally I don’t preclude anyones faith from heaven. Religious identification is not a prerequisite for moral behavior, no matter what the Navy thinks

26

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]dmaddox wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Christmas is completely pagan.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm[/quote]

I have seen your sort come knocking on my door - curiously, even as a child I could tell there was something terribly wrong; I couldn’t put my finger on it; there was something in the vacant stare; the relentless harping on a obscure point that no one really cared about but the persistant interlocutor; a point that that was isolated and pinned to the wall like a dead butterfly waiting for vivisection for no purpose other than winning an argument; an obsession with logic chopping; a certain lack of charm and humor. Then I saw the Body Snatchers and finally I was able to identify what the problem was and still is.

As the inestimable Father George Rutler said in a recent sermon: “When the Church proclaims the teachings of the Risen Christ most powerfully, her antagonists pay her the compliment of getting angry, especially in the holiest season of the year. The Russian Orthodox, I am told, say that when God builds a church, Satan pitches a tent outside.”[/quote]

I don’t understand how that applies to what I said about Christmas. I said Christmas was pagan, and then gave you one of many sources.[/quote]

So celebrating Christmas makes us Pagan? I guess since you guys dont worship Jesus that makes his birth pagan. We celebrate Christmas to welcome the birth of Christ the Messiah.

Keep putting up as many Watchtower endorsed internet sites that you can. Your knowledge of the Bible does not mean you know God.[/quote]

The holiday of Christmas is pagan. There is no proof anywhere in the Bible of the day of Jesus’ birth. The holiday is based off a Saturnalia, God of Saturn, and given a “christian” name. That is the truth.

The article I referenced earlier had nothing to do with my religion. The origins of Christmas are relatively well known.

Knowledge of the Bible does not mean you know God ? What does that mean?[/quote]

the bible is not God. Neither is the Koran. God is between you and God, nobody else. All the Bible offers is an interpretation and a general guideline, more like an encyclopedia

27

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

The holiday of Christmas is pagan. There is no proof anywhere in the Bible of the day of Jesus’ birth. That is the truth.[/quote]

No, it’s another example of your half truths. Do you need proof that Jesus was born?

As I said, much of it - the date, many of the customs, etc - are pagan. The origins of Christmas are extremely complex. THIS^ little summary, however, is false. But works well in one sense at least: it’s nice and catchy, easy to remember, and easy to recite rapidly when someone’s trying to close the door.

28

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

The holiday of Christmas is pagan. There is no proof anywhere in the Bible of the day of Jesus’ birth. That is the truth.[/quote]

No, it’s another example of your half truths. Do you need proof that Jesus was born?

As I said, much of it - the date, many of the customs, etc - are pagan. The origins of Christmas are extremely complex. THIS^ little summary, however, is false. But works well in one sense at least: it’s nice and catchy, easy to remember, and easy to recite rapidly when someone’s trying to close the door. [/quote]

Well at least we agree that the date and many of the customs are pagan. So what are the origins of Christmas then?

29

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

The holiday of Christmas is pagan. There is no proof anywhere in the Bible of the day of Jesus’ birth. That is the truth.[/quote]

No, it’s another example of your half truths. Do you need proof that Jesus was born?

As I said, much of it - the date, many of the customs, etc - are pagan. The origins of Christmas are extremely complex. THIS^ little summary, however, is false. But works well in one sense at least: it’s nice and catchy, easy to remember, and easy to recite rapidly when someone’s trying to close the door. [/quote]

Well at least we agree that the date and many of the customs are pagan. So what are the origins of Christmas then?[/quote]

Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Our Savior. And, more fundamentally, the entire Season celebrates the the Mystery of the Incarnation.

30

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

The holiday of Christmas is pagan. There is no proof anywhere in the Bible of the day of Jesus’ birth. That is the truth.[/quote]

No, it’s another example of your half truths. Do you need proof that Jesus was born?

As I said, much of it - the date, many of the customs, etc - are pagan. The origins of Christmas are extremely complex. THIS^ little summary, however, is false. But works well in one sense at least: it’s nice and catchy, easy to remember, and easy to recite rapidly when someone’s trying to close the door. [/quote]

Well at least we agree that the date and many of the customs are pagan. So what are the origins of Christmas then?[/quote]

Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Our Savior. And, more fundamentally, the entire Season celebrates the the Mystery of the Incarnation. [/quote]

OK, but what are the origins of Christmas?

31

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

The holiday of Christmas is pagan. There is no proof anywhere in the Bible of the day of Jesus’ birth. That is the truth.[/quote]

No, it’s another example of your half truths. Do you need proof that Jesus was born?

As I said, much of it - the date, many of the customs, etc - are pagan. The origins of Christmas are extremely complex. THIS^ little summary, however, is false. But works well in one sense at least: it’s nice and catchy, easy to remember, and easy to recite rapidly when someone’s trying to close the door. [/quote]

Well at least we agree that the date and many of the customs are pagan. So what are the origins of Christmas then?[/quote]

Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Our Savior. And, more fundamentally, the entire Season celebrates the the Mystery of the Incarnation. [/quote]

OK, but what are the origins of Christmas? [/quote]

What is the origin of anyone’s birthday, sir?

32

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Knowledge of the Bible does not mean you know God ? What does that mean?
[/quote]

See the Westboro Baptist church, they ‘know’ the bible and they don’t know shit about God.

33

Why don’t you tell us? BTW, pagan traditions are not exactly simple things either. Each Greek city, where Christianity had a lot of early influence, would have had their own celebrations. Syria and Gaul would have completely different celebrations. However, it is likely that the Christmas celebrations occur at a time when many more ancient religions had similar celebrations. Christianity definitely adopted some traditions, whats your point?

34

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

The holiday of Christmas is pagan. There is no proof anywhere in the Bible of the day of Jesus’ birth. That is the truth.[/quote]

No, it’s another example of your half truths. Do you need proof that Jesus was born?

As I said, much of it - the date, many of the customs, etc - are pagan. The origins of Christmas are extremely complex. THIS^ little summary, however, is false. But works well in one sense at least: it’s nice and catchy, easy to remember, and easy to recite rapidly when someone’s trying to close the door. [/quote]

Well at least we agree that the date and many of the customs are pagan. So what are the origins of Christmas then?[/quote]

Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Our Savior. And, more fundamentally, the entire Season celebrates the the Mystery of the Incarnation. [/quote]

OK, but what are the origins of Christmas? [/quote]

What is the origin of anyone’s birthday, sir?
[/quote]

The book The Lore of Birthdays (New York, 1952) by Ralph and Adelin Linton, on pages 8, 18-20 had this to say: "The Greeks believed that everyone had a protective spirit or daemon who attended his birth and watched over him in life. This spirit had a mystic relation with the god on whose birthday the individual was born.

The Romans also subscribed to this idea. …This notion was carried down in human belief and is reflected in the guardian angel, the fairy godmother and the patron saint. …The custom of lighted candles on the cakes started with the Greeks. …Honey cakes round as the moon and lit with tapers were placed on the temple altars of [Artemis]. …Birthday candles, in folk belief, are endowed with special magic for granting wishes. …Lighted tapers and sacrificial fires have had a special mystic significance ever since man first set up altars to his gods. The birthday candles are thus an honor and tribute to the birthday child and bring good fortune"

35

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

The holiday of Christmas is pagan. There is no proof anywhere in the Bible of the day of Jesus’ birth. That is the truth.[/quote]

No, it’s another example of your half truths. Do you need proof that Jesus was born?

As I said, much of it - the date, many of the customs, etc - are pagan. The origins of Christmas are extremely complex. THIS^ little summary, however, is false. But works well in one sense at least: it’s nice and catchy, easy to remember, and easy to recite rapidly when someone’s trying to close the door. [/quote]

Well at least we agree that the date and many of the customs are pagan. So what are the origins of Christmas then?[/quote]

Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Our Savior. And, more fundamentally, the entire Season celebrates the the Mystery of the Incarnation. [/quote]

OK, but what are the origins of Christmas? [/quote]

Now this is detailed! It will answer all questions about origin and reason.

36

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

The holiday of Christmas is pagan. There is no proof anywhere in the Bible of the day of Jesus’ birth. That is the truth.[/quote]

No, it’s another example of your half truths. Do you need proof that Jesus was born?

As I said, much of it - the date, many of the customs, etc - are pagan. The origins of Christmas are extremely complex. THIS^ little summary, however, is false. But works well in one sense at least: it’s nice and catchy, easy to remember, and easy to recite rapidly when someone’s trying to close the door. [/quote]

Well at least we agree that the date and many of the customs are pagan. So what are the origins of Christmas then?[/quote]

Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Our Savior. And, more fundamentally, the entire Season celebrates the the Mystery of the Incarnation. [/quote]

OK, but what are the origins of Christmas? [/quote]

Now this is detailed! It will answer all questions about origin and reason.
[/quote]

Now see, that just won’t do Pat. It’s too long and complicated :wink:

37

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]katzenjammer wrote:

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

The holiday of Christmas is pagan. There is no proof anywhere in the Bible of the day of Jesus’ birth. That is the truth.[/quote]

No, it’s another example of your half truths. Do you need proof that Jesus was born?

As I said, much of it - the date, many of the customs, etc - are pagan. The origins of Christmas are extremely complex. THIS^ little summary, however, is false. But works well in one sense at least: it’s nice and catchy, easy to remember, and easy to recite rapidly when someone’s trying to close the door. [/quote]

Well at least we agree that the date and many of the customs are pagan. So what are the origins of Christmas then?[/quote]

Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Our Savior. And, more fundamentally, the entire Season celebrates the the Mystery of the Incarnation. [/quote]

OK, but what are the origins of Christmas? [/quote]

Now this is detailed! It will answer all questions about origin and reason.
[/quote]

Pat, I read it. Was there a particular portion in their that I was suppose to focus on that put this as non-pagan origins? It seems to agree with what I found.

38

[quote]Kanada wrote:
Why don’t you tell us? BTW, pagan traditions are not exactly simple things either. Each Greek city, where Christianity had a lot of early influence, would have had their own celebrations. Syria and Gaul would have completely different celebrations. However, it is likely that the Christmas celebrations occur at a time when many more ancient religions had similar celebrations. Christianity definitely adopted some traditions, whats your point?[/quote]

John 15:17-19
“These things I command YOU, that YOU love one another. If the world hates YOU, YOU know that it has hated me before it hated YOU. If YOU were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because YOU are no part of the world, but I have chosen YOU out of the world, on this account the world hates YOU.”

We are commanded to be no part of the world. To have traditions of pagan origins adopted into christian beliefs would go against that command, and therefore would be disapproved by God and Jesus. That is my point.

39

Celebrating a specific event on a day other than the day it actually occurred does not reduce the significance of that event. Also, incorporating customs not directly related to the specific event, while still recognizing the true reason you are celebrating, does not reduce the validity of the event/celebration.

Just because the Bible doesn’t say when or how an event is/should be celebrated, doesn’t mean that event shouldn’t be celebrated. And since it doesn’t tell us these things, celebrating the event while incorporating some traditions not specific to the event itself, isn’t in conflict with the Bible.

40

[quote]honest_lifter wrote:

[quote]Kanada wrote:
Why don’t you tell us? BTW, pagan traditions are not exactly simple things either. Each Greek city, where Christianity had a lot of early influence, would have had their own celebrations. Syria and Gaul would have completely different celebrations. However, it is likely that the Christmas celebrations occur at a time when many more ancient religions had similar celebrations. Christianity definitely adopted some traditions, whats your point?[/quote]

John 15:17-19
“These things I command YOU, that YOU love one another. If the world hates YOU, YOU know that it has hated me before it hated YOU. If YOU were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because YOU are no part of the world, but I have chosen YOU out of the world, on this account the world hates YOU.”

We are commanded to be no part of the world. To have traditions of pagan origins adopted into christian beliefs would go against that command, and therefore would be disapproved by God and Jesus. That is my point.

[/quote]

The world hates Christians because we love Jesus. Look a couple of verses up from the versus you posted. Look what Jesus said about him and the father.

11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your nameâ??the name you gave meâ??so that they may be one as we are one.

Being of the world and in the world are two separate things. It is great you do not celebrate anything, or love this country. That is your free will man.