Catholic Teacher Fired

Brother_Chris · April 26, 2012, 6:58am

[quote]xfactor3236 wrote:
ya know, i realize there are a lot of religious folk who over do it with shoving beliefs down everyones throat, but its a two way street. seems like a fair share of non-religous folk are equally guilty. it sucks a bit for the kids their teacher got canned, im sure they’ll live. but no one on here or anywhere else for that matter is going to successfully convince their opposition what truly constitutes human life one side or the other[/quote]

Yet one of us is right, the other is wrong. How will we ever be able to decide. I mean besides the socratic method, don’t look there.

The_Mage · April 26, 2012, 8:07am

Actually I was wondering about this news service. They may have their reasons for reporting what they do, in the way they do.

Anyway I attempted to find another source for the article, and came across this one:

http://www.news-sentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20120425/NEWS/120429677/1005

It did mention in the article that they allowed her to finish the year, but they were not renewing her contract. If she was between contracts, that does put her in a weaker position.

A lot of the discussion is about what is alleged in this incident. We are hearing more of one side of the argument and making a judgement based on that. The school released a comment, but part of that statement from the school was that it ?does not intend to comment on the specific allegations raised in the lawsuit that was filed against it.?

Anyway I am not going to have an opinion on this when most of what I know about it is from one side.

DoubleDuce · April 26, 2012, 1:24pm

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]FISCHER613 wrote:

I read the story, thanks.

I also run a business. You believe that this is the real reason she got fired? There is more involved than this.

I’ll bet someone got pissed covering for her for taking on her workload. This was also right at the end of the school year before Final Grades and exams and complained, made a stink out of it and voila.

Indiana is an at will state if I am not mistaken.

Now if we put what all she said in a vacuum (no other outside interference) then yes it is harsh but alas nothing ever is in a vacuum now is it?[/quote]

It doesn’t matter what their “actual” reason for firing her is. What will matter in court will be their official reason for terminating her employment, which in this case is immoral behavior.

EDIT: It does not matter if Indiana is an “at will” state. At will laws only apply if there is no contract expressly governing the terms of employment, which she has. All teachers do, union or otherwise.[/quote]

According to the news this morning, her contract did specify obeying Catholic practices, but that she was never taught what that really meant.

sufiandy · April 26, 2012, 3:25pm

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]xfactor3236 wrote:
ya know, i realize there are a lot of religious folk who over do it with shoving beliefs down everyones throat, but its a two way street. seems like a fair share of non-religous folk are equally guilty. it sucks a bit for the kids their teacher got canned, im sure they’ll live. but no one on here or anywhere else for that matter is going to successfully convince their opposition what truly constitutes human life one side or the other[/quote]

Yet one of us is right, the other is wrong. How will we ever be able to decide. I mean besides the socratic method, don’t look there.[/quote]

Not everything has to have a clear right and wrong. But if your trying to win an argument it would be best to hide that from your opponent.

Dr_Matt581 · April 26, 2012, 3:42pm

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

According to the news this morning, her contract did specify obeying Catholic practices, but that she was never taught what that really meant.[/quote]

This goes to the ambiguity that I talked about earlier. Ambiguity in a contract will generally benefit the person who did not draft it. This was explained to me by the attorney my father insisted I have look over my employment contract when I decided to stay and work in America. According to the link posted by The Mage, the school stated that (although I would like to point out that they did not specifically state that this was in the employment contract) employees must “have knowledge of and respect for the Catholic faith.” That is extremely vague. What is “Knowledge of the Catholic faith” I know the Catholic Church exists and they believe in Jesus. There, that is knowledge and it is about the Catholic faith. Hell, when the teacher asked the principal if undergoing IVF would threaten her job, the principals response was basically “I don’t know, I need to look into it.” Has the principal been fired, or will not have her contract renewed, for not having “knowledge of the Catholic faith?” What is “respect for the Catholic faith?” If it is not defined, it could mean just about anything, and not just following the rules of the Catholic Church. It could mean that she has to teach her students according to Catholic guidelines or any number of things.

They also stated that employees must “abide by the tenets of Catholic Church,” which is a little more specific, but not by much. What is a “tenet of the Catholic Church?” Does it mean that she has to follow every papal decree and if she doesn’t, she will be fired. Does the Catholic Church excommunicate people who have undergone IVF? I seriously do not know and could not find a single report of it. I looked up the Vatican document that covers IVF, here is the link:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20081208_dignitas-personae_en.html

I did not see anywhere in there where it was stated that not undergoing IVF was a tenet of Catholic faith, it just condemned the practice of it, so unless this teacher was specifically told beforehand that not undergoing IVF was a tenet of Catholic faith, she had no way of knowing. There are also documents similar to this condemning contraceptives and extramarital sex, and sex where procreation is not the goal. If they do not fire teachers for being prescribed birth control, which is provided by their health insurance, or the principal for getting a divorce (assuming she did not have permission), or those who had vasectomies or any other violation, then she has a great case for discrimination. It also does not specify how she was to gain knowledge of the tenets of Catholic faith and what timeline she had to learn them. People can be Catholics there entire lives and not know all of the rules and such they are supposed to follow. Was she supposed to learn them on her own, was she supposed to know every Catholic rule and law before she started, within 5 years? 10 years? 20 years?

Others have also pointed out that she was not really “fired,” her contract was just not renewed. Any contract for a job as a teacher will specify what the conditions are for renewing or not renewing a contract, usually to be decided by a review board of some kind. For instance, it will have a clause in there regarding lack of funding or downsizing her department, something about poor performance, or the whole moral behavior stuff that I have talked about many times now. The same stuff that I have been talking about in regards to ambiguity and everything else will still apply. If they did not specify what was meant by that stuff and provided no training or anything in regards to that, then they cannot use that as a reason for not renewing her contract.

Brother_Chris · April 26, 2012, 4:55pm

[quote]sufiandy wrote:
Not everything has to have a clear right and wrong.[/quote]

O, rly?

Brother_Chris · April 26, 2012, 4:57pm

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

According to the news this morning, her contract did specify obeying Catholic practices, but that she was never taught what that really meant.[/quote]

This goes to the ambiguity that I talked about earlier. Ambiguity in a contract will generally benefit the person who did not draft it. This was explained to me by the attorney my father insisted I have look over my employment contract when I decided to stay and work in America. According to the link posted by The Mage, the school stated that (although I would like to point out that they did not specifically state that this was in the employment contract) employees must “have knowledge of and respect for the Catholic faith.” That is extremely vague. What is “Knowledge of the Catholic faith” I know the Catholic Church exists and they believe in Jesus. There, that is knowledge and it is about the Catholic faith. Hell, when the teacher asked the principal if undergoing IVF would threaten her job, the principals response was basically “I don’t know, I need to look into it.” Has the principal been fired, or will not have her contract renewed, for not having “knowledge of the Catholic faith?” What is “respect for the Catholic faith?” If it is not defined, it could mean just about anything, and not just following the rules of the Catholic Church. It could mean that she has to teach her students according to Catholic guidelines or any number of things.

They also stated that employees must “abide by the tenets of Catholic Church,” which is a little more specific, but not by much. What is a “tenet of the Catholic Church?” Does it mean that she has to follow every papal decree and if she doesn’t, she will be fired. Does the Catholic Church excommunicate people who have undergone IVF? I seriously do not know and could not find a single report of it. I looked up the Vatican document that covers IVF, here is the link:

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20081208_dignitas-personae_en.html

I did not see anywhere in there where it was stated that not undergoing IVF was a tenet of Catholic faith, it just condemned the practice of it, so unless this teacher was specifically told beforehand that not undergoing IVF was a tenet of Catholic faith, she had no way of knowing. There are also documents similar to this condemning contraceptives and extramarital sex, and sex where procreation is not the goal. If they do not fire teachers for being prescribed birth control, which is provided by their health insurance, or the principal for getting a divorce (assuming she did not have permission), or those who had vasectomies or any other violation, then she has a great case for discrimination. It also does not specify how she was to gain knowledge of the tenets of Catholic faith and what timeline she had to learn them. People can be Catholics there entire lives and not know all of the rules and such they are supposed to follow. Was she supposed to learn them on her own, was she supposed to know every Catholic rule and law before she started, within 5 years? 10 years? 20 years?

Others have also pointed out that she was not really “fired,” her contract was just not renewed. Any contract for a job as a teacher will specify what the conditions are for renewing or not renewing a contract, usually to be decided by a review board of some kind. For instance, it will have a clause in there regarding lack of funding or downsizing her department, something about poor performance, or the whole moral behavior stuff that I have talked about many times now. The same stuff that I have been talking about in regards to ambiguity and everything else will still apply. If they did not specify what was meant by that stuff and provided no training or anything in regards to that, then they cannot use that as a reason for not renewing her contract.[/quote]

I have an inkling that this is ultimately a Canon Law issue.

Dr_Matt581 · April 26, 2012, 5:11pm

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

I have an inkling that this is ultimately a Canon Law issue.[/quote]

I have an inkling this is ultimately a United States Federal Law issue, since that is the court that will be hearing this case. Canon Law may, and probably will, play a part in the case if it goes to trial, especially if undergoing IVF is a violation of Canon Law, which the document I posted earlier did not state, and whether she is required by her contract to follow Canon Law. This will all boil down to the vagueness of her contract, which if what was said in the link posted by The Mage is true, it is extremely vague and they still provided no training or timeline on how and when she had to gain that knowledge which is going to be very much in the teacher’s favor.

pat · April 26, 2012, 5:19pm

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

And there it is folks, the compassion and understanding of god and his fan club.

So what say you, theists among us, is this a case of “grave, immoral sin”? Was the teacher’s firing warranted?[/quote]

Oh brother. The problem is the farming of embryos. Making and disguarding embryos is tantamount to abortion. That’s the problem. [/quote]

Problem for whom? An embryo is most definitely NOT a person, or life.
[/quote]
Soooo, what is it? A dead lizard? Science disagrees with you. Science says it’s both human and alive. I think you’ll have a hard case proving it’s neither.

If you were right about the embryo thing, then I would agree, but you are not so I don’t.

[quote]pat wrote:
I know this doesn’t make sense to you, but we value human life, where as human life is about as valuable to you as getting gum stuck to your shoe. So I am not surprised you don’t get it.[/quote]

ORLY?

Listen, patty cakes, my 15 years as a firefighter/EMT has consistently put me knee deep in the tragedy and triumph of human life. You think you know me? You don’t know fuck all about me.

Ever deliver a baby in the bathroom of a shitty apartment or on the side of the road? My crew just last week delivered one three weeks ago; it was my second in the field delivery. Kid was a real screamer.

Ever do unsuccessful CPR on a three month old, and have to tell the mom that her kid is dead only to have her wail and clutch at your arm to please keep trying even though the child is dead? That was my reality. (by the way, she prayed her ASS off the entire time. food for thought)

Ever hand dig a ten year old out of the side of the sand hill he was buried alive in? Have to walk around for years seeing flashes of his face and the dirt in his teeth from trying to get a tube past all the dirt that was packed into his throat? That’s what I seen for a few years after that one.

Ever cut down a woman who hung herself in her bedroom? listen to her teenage daughter cry her eyes out and pray to god that she not die? Your god wasn’t listening that time either apparently.

Ever have a successful CPR save? Go into their house, find them with no pulse, do your job well, and have them come see you at the fire station some time later to say thanks? You think to yourself, “Damn, I knew that guy when he was dead!”

Don’t lecture me on what I do or do not know about human “life”. I’ve seen more than my share of tragedy and triumph in the arena of “life”, patty cakes. That dog’s not gonna hunt.

I really didn’t need your resume. I don’t give a shit what you do for a living. Don’t be so touchy. I am merely stating that we regard the importance of life itself as the pinnacle of importance, and you value you thoughts, feelings, emotions and economics over human life so long as it’s not visible to you. That is unless you are suddenly pro-life. Which I doubt.

pat · April 26, 2012, 5:22pm

[quote]nocturnus wrote:
Aaaahhh, the Catholic Church - where birth control and IVF make you a ‘grave, immoral sinner’ but abusing kids and covering it up is acceptable.

Strange set of rules.[/quote]

Where is it acceptable? So by this rational, if people who belongs to a organization does something wrong, then by default, that action is acceptable to that organization? That’s an interesting slippery slope…

pat · April 26, 2012, 5:26pm

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]nocturnus wrote:
Aaaahhh, the Catholic Church - where birth control and IVF make you a ‘grave, immoral sinner’ but abusing kids and covering it up is acceptable.

Strange set of rules.[/quote]

You got that right.
[/quote]

Don’t worry, your record is safe. Atheists have murdered over 300 million in the 20th century alone. Nobody is going to beat that record anytime soon. And according to nocturnus, if a few people belonging to a group do a bad thing, it is automatically acceptable by that group. Ergo, in that model, atheists murdering non-atheists is acceptable to atheists. Just like abusing kids is acceptable to Catholics.

therajraj · April 26, 2012, 5:41pm

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

Does the fact that her boss gave his blessings before she proceeded matter at all to you guys? Don’t you think it’s a little ridiculous for your boss to give you the okay on an action and still get fired for it?[/quote]

No. She still has to be fired.
[/quote]

Cold and unflinching.

If I ever need a hitman I’ll know who to PM

Headhunter · April 26, 2012, 6:00pm

The whole point is to have children. Who thinks up this insanity?

Anyone who thinks that this woman was immoral because she wanted to have a family is totally insane.

Headhunter · April 26, 2012, 6:05pm

[quote]FISCHER613 wrote:
Wait. full stop. Teachers have 2.5 months or so out of the year off during summer. So why do you need time off from work for an extended period to pursue this? Maybe she was a crappy teacher and this was the strongest thing they could think of to make stick. Esp if she was in a Union.

Now she will have all the time she needs to go do this.
[/quote]

You think getting in vitro is like a vacation?

DoubleDuce · April 26, 2012, 6:18pm

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
The whole point is to have children. Who thinks up this insanity?

Anyone who thinks that this woman was immoral because she wanted to have a family is totally insane.[/quote]

So, would it then be okay to kidnap children to get a family? That would just be “wanting” a family. Or do methods matter?

bigflamer · April 26, 2012, 6:23pm

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

And there it is folks, the compassion and understanding of god and his fan club.

So what say you, theists among us, is this a case of “grave, immoral sin”? Was the teacher’s firing warranted?[/quote]

Oh brother. The problem is the farming of embryos. Making and disguarding embryos is tantamount to abortion. That’s the problem. [/quote]

Problem for whom? An embryo is most definitely NOT a person, or life.
[/quote]
Soooo, what is it? A dead lizard? Science disagrees with you. Science says it’s both human and alive. I think you’ll have a hard case proving it’s neither.[/quote]

Living human tissue is living human tissue, not life.

Dead lizard? Seriously…WTF?

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
Yes, this teacher’s firing was totally warranted. It’s a disgusting practice that is morally abhorrent and should be banned all together.[/quote]

Then by all means, I would encourage you to never participate in the process then. But a hearty “fuck you” to those like yourselves who would push their personal religious views on the masses. Don’t like IVF? Then don’t participate; easy enough.
[/quote]

If you were right about the embryo thing, then I would agree, but you are not so I don’t.[/quote]

Oh, but I am right, in that my belief does not equate a clump of cells to “life”.

YOUR religious belief is that the clump of cells constitutes life somehow. Whatever, that’s your thing, you have the freedom to believe any damn thing that you want regardless of what I think of your belief. You don’t however, have the freedom to enforce your religious beliefs on others. Capeesh?

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:
I know this doesn’t make sense to you, but we value human life, where as human life is about as valuable to you as getting gum stuck to your shoe. So I am not surprised you don’t get it.[/quote]

ORLY?

Listen, patty cakes, my 15 years as a firefighter/EMT has consistently put me knee deep in the tragedy and triumph of human life. You think you know me? You don’t know fuck all about me.

Ever deliver a baby in the bathroom of a shitty apartment or on the side of the road? My crew just last week delivered one three weeks ago; it was my second in the field delivery. Kid was a real screamer.

Ever do unsuccessful CPR on a three month old, and have to tell the mom that her kid is dead only to have her wail and clutch at your arm to please keep trying even though the child is dead? That was my reality. (by the way, she prayed her ASS off the entire time. food for thought)

Ever hand dig a ten year old out of the side of the sand hill he was buried alive in? Have to walk around for years seeing flashes of his face and the dirt in his teeth from trying to get a tube past all the dirt that was packed into his throat? That’s what I seen for a few years after that one.

Ever cut down a woman who hung herself in her bedroom? listen to her teenage daughter cry her eyes out and pray to god that she not die? Your god wasn’t listening that time either apparently.

Ever have a successful CPR save? Go into their house, find them with no pulse, do your job well, and have them come see you at the fire station some time later to say thanks? You think to yourself, “Damn, I knew that guy when he was dead!”

Don’t lecture me on what I do or do not know about human “life”. I’ve seen more than my share of tragedy and triumph in the arena of “life”, patty cakes. That dog’s not gonna hunt.
[/quote]

I really didn’t need your resume. I don’t give a shit what you do for a living. Don’t be so touchy. I am merely stating that we regard the importance of life itself as the pinnacle of importance, and you value you thoughts, feelings, emotions and economics over human life so long as it’s not visible to you. That is unless you are suddenly pro-life. Which I doubt.
[/quote]

This has nothing to do with my resume, it has everything do do with you running your suck recklessly and telling me what I do or do not value. The above is me pointing out that you have no clue about what I really value, and that you once again screwed the pooch. Just because I don’t think a clump of tissue equals life, doesn’t mean that I have no regard for life. Get it?

I value life just as much, and possibly more than, the average person. Believing that a clump of living tissue constitutes life is your thing, not mine. A clump of living tissue, IMHO, does NOT constitue life. If my wife and I ever had needed IVF, and made a personal family decision to pursue that, then it’s none of your fucking business. Period. End of story.

Wouldn’t it be super duper if you could just keep your shitty religion to yourself, and not try and force it down the throats of those who don’t share your beliefs?

There’s a thought…

bigflamer · April 26, 2012, 6:32pm

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]nocturnus wrote:
Aaaahhh, the Catholic Church - where birth control and IVF make you a ‘grave, immoral sinner’ but abusing kids and covering it up is acceptable.

Strange set of rules.[/quote]

You got that right.
[/quote]

Don’t worry, your record is safe. Atheists have murdered over 300 million in the 20th century alone. Nobody is going to beat that record anytime soon. And according to nocturnus, if a few people belonging to a group do a bad thing, it is automatically acceptable by that group. Ergo, in that model, atheists murdering non-atheists is acceptable to atheists. Just like abusing kids is acceptable to Catholics. [/quote]

Ah yes, the old meme of “atheists killing in the name of no god”. LOL…yea

Glad you dragged this out, I’ll have a chance to address it later.

pat · April 26, 2012, 7:04pm