Catholic Teacher Fired

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
The problem here is not even about IVF, but rather how this school fired a person based on what she does on her own time. I will bet that this woman is not Catholic herself (one does not have to be Catholic to teach at a Catholic school), and may not have even been aware of the Catholic Church’s stance on IVF, I know I didn’t until I read this. Since her position did not require her to be a Catholic or to have any knowledge of Catholicism whatsoever, then they had no right to fire her for having IVF. Religious protections only go so far. If the school wants to only hire Catholics and require all teachers to strictly follow Catholic doctrine at all times, that is fine, but until they do so and make it know to all potential employees that that is the case, then they have no right to fire people for not following Catholic rules. As the article stated, people who work at that school have used condoms and other forms of birth control, as well as had vasectomies, all of which are also condemned by the Catholic Church. If none of these people were fired for not upholding Catholic doctrine I expect this woman to get a very large sum of money over this.[/quote]

I doubt that. I am sure her contract state grave violations of basic moral teachings of the church will get you ass fired. You can’t work there and have abortions and shit. They will can you for that type of stuff.[/quote]

I do not doubt that. I have been offered jobs at Catholic schools, and almost accepted one. I even asked if I had to be a Catholic or had to follow Catholic law and I was told no. I even looked over the employment contract and it had nothing in there about that stuff. If this school is anything like the one I almost worked at, then it would not have anything in there about that. If it did, the school would also be firing people for using condoms, birth control, and having vasectomies or even getting a divorce.[/quote]

All schools do that, it’s just different moral standards. Posing for playboy or posting racist jokes on Facebook will get you canned at a public school. I don’t see how this is different.[/quote]

It is different because the public school contracts state what kind of behavior is inappropriate and we are trained on what is and is not acceptable for us to do in public (I teach at a public university). Catholic school employment contracts do not state that one has to follow Catholic morality and the teachers are not trained in Catholic morality. If the school wants to do that, then fine, but it needs to be put into the employment contracts and they need to train the employees on acceptable moral behavior. They do not currently do that and so do not have the right to fire employees, especially ones who do not know about Catholic morality, for not following it.
[/quote]

How detailed is a standard contract? I would think a catholic contract would have a general morality clause too.

But I think there is a deference between Catholic dogma and tradition, and general morality. If the church considers IVF murder, then it’s pretty safe to say, they’d fire you for it, the way a public school would fire someone they thought had committed murder. I would consider that a general moral belief. I would not expect them to fire someone for say, not confessing or praying, because those are things specifically required of Catholics. Not murdering isn’t just for Catholics, and whether you agree with it being murder isn’t the point. You did something your employer considers murder, getting fired isn’t surprising.

But I do agree that it would be good of them to be clearer about what is permissible if they aren’t currently.

22

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

How detailed is a standard contract? I would think a catholic contract would have a general morality clause too.

But I think there is a deference between Catholic dogma and tradition, and general morality. If the church considers IVF murder, then it’s pretty safe to say, they’d fire you for it, the way a public school would fire someone they thought had committed murder. I would consider that a general moral belief. I would not expect them to fire someone for say, not confessing or praying, because those are things specifically required of Catholics. Not murdering isn’t just for Catholics, and whether you agree with it being murder isn’t the point. You did something your employer considers murder, getting fired isn’t surprising.

But I do agree that it would be good of them to be clearer about what is permissible if they aren’t currently.[/quote]

Employment contracts need to be specific about what behavior is and is not allowed (committing an actual crime like murder or theft is specific, but not all states allow one to be fired just for suspicion of a crime), either by referencing actual laws or spelling out what is meant by “moral behavior.” If they wanted to put something general in their contracts requiring employees to follow Catholic morality (which they do not) then they need to provide the training to their employees so they know what is expected of them. It is really that simple. Any contract attorney will tell you (I know mine did) that ambiguity in a contract will generally benefit the party who did not draft it. If they just put a general morality clause in their contract and do not specify “Catholic morality” and do not specify what Catholic morality entails and provide training to employees about what Catholic morality is, then they cannot fire employees for not following it.

23

[quote]therajraj wrote:

Does the fact that her boss gave his blessings before she proceeded matter at all to you guys? Don’t you think it’s a little ridiculous for your boss to give you the okay on an action and still get fired for it?[/quote]

No. She still has to be fired.

24

people will debate for or against the school’s decision. For or against the teacher’s decision.

But they will forget the anonymous “hero” of the story :

In every of these stories, there is always someone who cast the first stone.

25

Wait. full stop. Teachers have 2.5 months or so out of the year off during summer. So why do you need time off from work for an extended period to pursue this? Maybe she was a crappy teacher and this was the strongest thing they could think of to make stick. Esp if she was in a Union.

Now she will have all the time she needs to go do this.

26

[quote]FISCHER613 wrote:
Wait. full stop. Teachers have 2.5 months or so out of the year off during summer. So why do you need time off from work for an extended period to pursue this? Maybe she was a crappy teacher and this was the strongest thing they could think of to make stick. Esp if she was in a Union.

Now she will have all the time she needs to go do this.

[/quote]

No the admin stated she is a great teacher. Unfortunately the children will suffer over this decision.

27

[quote]FISCHER613 wrote:
Wait. full stop. Teachers have 2.5 months or so out of the year off during summer. So why do you need time off from work for an extended period to pursue this? Maybe she was a crappy teacher and this was the strongest thing they could think of to make stick. Esp if she was in a Union.

Now she will have all the time she needs to go do this.

[/quote]

She wasn’t fired for taking time off, and she did not demand it. She asked for it and they gave it to her for the first round of IVF treatment. She was fired after someone complained to the head of the school, who had already known about it and gave his literal blessing. She also had excellent performance reports. This was all in the OP, by the way.

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[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
How detailed is a standard contract? I would think a catholic contract would have a general morality clause too.

But I think there is a deference between Catholic dogma and tradition, and general morality. If the church considers IVF murder, then it’s pretty safe to say, they’d fire you for it, the way a public school would fire someone they thought had committed murder. I would consider that a general moral belief. I would not expect them to fire someone for say, not confessing or praying, because those are things specifically required of Catholics. Not murdering isn’t just for Catholics, and whether you agree with it being murder isn’t the point. You did something your employer considers murder, getting fired isn’t surprising.

But I do agree that it would be good of them to be clearer about what is permissible if they aren’t currently.[/quote]

Just to make sure, something is understood. In most cases, the Church has recognized that the mother in cases of abortion, ivf, &c. are the second victim.

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[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]FISCHER613 wrote:
Wait. full stop. Teachers have 2.5 months or so out of the year off during summer. So why do you need time off from work for an extended period to pursue this? Maybe she was a crappy teacher and this was the strongest thing they could think of to make stick. Esp if she was in a Union.

Now she will have all the time she needs to go do this.

[/quote]

She wasn’t fired for taking time off, and she did not demand it. She asked for it and they gave it to her for the first round of IVF treatment. She was fired after someone complained to the head of the school, who had already known about it and gave his literal blessing. She also had excellent performance reports. This was all in the OP, by the way.[/quote]

I read the story, thanks.

I also run a business. You believe that this is the real reason she got fired? There is more involved than this.

I’ll bet someone got pissed covering for her for taking on her workload. This was also right at the end of the school year before Final Grades and exams and complained, made a stink out of it and voila.

Indiana is an at will state if I am not mistaken.

Now if we put what all she said in a vacuum (no other outside interference) then yes it is harsh but alas nothing ever is in a vacuum now is it?

30

[quote]FISCHER613 wrote:

I read the story, thanks.

I also run a business. You believe that this is the real reason she got fired? There is more involved than this.

I’ll bet someone got pissed covering for her for taking on her workload. This was also right at the end of the school year before Final Grades and exams and complained, made a stink out of it and voila.

Indiana is an at will state if I am not mistaken.

Now if we put what all she said in a vacuum (no other outside interference) then yes it is harsh but alas nothing ever is in a vacuum now is it?[/quote]

It doesn’t matter what their “actual” reason for firing her is. What will matter in court will be their official reason for terminating her employment, which in this case is immoral behavior.

EDIT: It does not matter if Indiana is an “at will” state. At will laws only apply if there is no contract expressly governing the terms of employment, which she has. All teachers do, union or otherwise.

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[quote]therajraj wrote:

Unfortunately the children will suffer over this decision.[/quote]

Not really.

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[quote]therajraj wrote:
Unfortunately the children will suffer over this decision.[/quote]

And just because I get a turn to use the image…

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Aaaahhh, the Catholic Church - where birth control and IVF make you a ‘grave, immoral sinner’ but abusing kids and covering it up is acceptable.

Strange set of rules.

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[quote]nocturnus wrote:
Aaaahhh, the Catholic Church - where birth control and IVF make you a ‘grave, immoral sinner’ but abusing kids and covering it up is acceptable.

Strange set of rules.[/quote]

You got that right.

35

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

And there it is folks, the compassion and understanding of god and his fan club.

So what say you, theists among us, is this a case of “grave, immoral sin”? Was the teacher’s firing warranted?[/quote]

Oh brother. The problem is the farming of embryos. Making and disguarding embryos is tantamount to abortion. That’s the problem. [/quote]

Problem for whom? An embryo is most definitely NOT a person, or life.

[quote]pat wrote:
Yes, this teacher’s firing was totally warranted. It’s a disgusting practice that is morally abhorrent and should be banned all together.[/quote]

Then by all means, I would encourage you to never participate in the process then. But a hearty “fuck you” to those like yourselves who would push their personal religious views on the masses. Don’t like IVF? Then don’t participate; easy enough.

[quote]pat wrote:
I know this doesn’t make sense to you, but we value human life, where as human life is about as valuable to you as getting gum stuck to your shoe. So I am not surprised you don’t get it.[/quote]

ORLY?

Listen, patty cakes, my 15 years as a firefighter/EMT has consistently put me knee deep in the tragedy and triumph of human life. You think you know me? You don’t know fuck all about me.

Ever deliver a baby in the bathroom of a shitty apartment or on the side of the road? My crew just last week delivered one three weeks ago; it was my second in the field delivery. Kid was a real screamer.

Ever do unsuccessful CPR on a three month old, and have to tell the mom that her kid is dead only to have her wail and clutch at your arm to please keep trying even though the child is dead? That was my reality. (by the way, she prayed her ASS off the entire time. food for thought)

Ever hand dig a ten year old out of the side of the sand hill he was buried alive in? Have to walk around for years seeing flashes of his face and the dirt in his teeth from trying to get a tube past all the dirt that was packed into his throat? That’s what I seen for a few years after that one.

Ever cut down a woman who hung herself in her bedroom? listen to her teenage daughter cry her eyes out and pray to god that she not die? Your god wasn’t listening that time either apparently.

Ever have a successful CPR save? Go into their house, find them with no pulse, do your job well, and have them come see you at the fire station some time later to say thanks? You think to yourself, “Damn, I knew that guy when he was dead!”

Don’t lecture me on what I do or do not know about human “life”. I’ve seen more than my share of tragedy and triumph in the arena of “life”, patty cakes. That dog’s not gonna hunt.

36

See hijack haven please Sparky.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
See hijack haven please Sparky.
[/quote]

Will do.

I gotta get to bed right now though. I’m running on three hours sleep from working a fire on last night’s shift, and I have a pre-employment psych eval in the morning for a part time security officer gig.

I always kinda sorta enjoy these pre-employment psych evals with the head shrinkers; very interesting IMHO. Throughout the entire interview, I’m always thinking about what he’s thinking, about how I think. LOL…Methinks I think too damned much. At least that’s what my football coach always told me.

38

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

Problem for whom? An embryo is most definitely NOT a person, or life.

[/quote]

It’s not? Well then what on earth is it? A doorknob?

39

[quote]nocturnus wrote:
Aaaahhh, the Catholic Church - where birth control and IVF make you a ‘grave, immoral sinner’ but abusing kids and covering it up is acceptable.

Strange set of rules.[/quote]

Congratulations. You have found the internet. :slight_smile:

40

ya know, i realize there are a lot of religious folk who over do it with shoving beliefs down everyones throat, but its a two way street. seems like a fair share of non-religous folk are equally guilty. it sucks a bit for the kids their teacher got canned, im sure they’ll live. but no one on here or anywhere else for that matter is going to successfully convince their opposition what truly constitutes human life one side or the other