Catholic Teacher Fired

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
321

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

No I came to that conclusion through personal experience. Unfortunately I am unable to telegraph why to people outside of my own head.

It’s similar to people who have claimed to have had some sort of religious experience (jesus coming down and talking to them etc.) They can justify that particular belief to themselves. [/quote]

Wow, you believe in revelation. You are more spiritual than many Christians.[/quote]

I don’t know how you came to the conclusion I believe in revelation.[/quote]

Because that is exactly what you described…?[/quote]

Not divine revelation
[/quote]

Okay, I didn’t say it was, but since you bring it up, where was your revelation from? You have already admitted itâ??s not from a thought process, or logic, or reason. So where then?[/quote]

From being around and interacting with other humans.

322

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

No I came to that conclusion through personal experience. Unfortunately I am unable to telegraph why to people outside of my own head.

It’s similar to people who have claimed to have had some sort of religious experience (jesus coming down and talking to them etc.) They can justify that particular belief to themselves. [/quote]

Wow, you believe in revelation. You are more spiritual than many Christians.[/quote]

I don’t know how you came to the conclusion I believe in revelation.[/quote]

Because that is exactly what you described…?[/quote]

Not divine revelation
[/quote]

Okay, I didn’t say it was, but since you bring it up, where was your revelation from? You have already admitted itÃ??Ã?¢??s not from a thought process, or logic, or reason. So where then?[/quote]

From being around and interacting with other humans.[/quote]

That doesn’t answer the question. The experience is not the insight. Lots of people interact with other humans and don’t get that revelation. If that experience was the revelation, we’d all have it.

323

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

No I came to that conclusion through personal experience. Unfortunately I am unable to telegraph why to people outside of my own head.

It’s similar to people who have claimed to have had some sort of religious experience (jesus coming down and talking to them etc.) They can justify that particular belief to themselves. [/quote]

Wow, you believe in revelation. You are more spiritual than many Christians.[/quote]

I don’t know how you came to the conclusion I believe in revelation.[/quote]

Because that is exactly what you described…?[/quote]

Not divine revelation
[/quote]

Okay, I didn’t say it was, but since you bring it up, where was your revelation from? You have already admitted itÃ???Ã??Ã?¢??s not from a thought process, or logic, or reason. So where then?[/quote]

From being around and interacting with other humans.[/quote]

Lots of people interact with other humans and don’t get that revelation. If that experience was the revelation, we’d all have it.[/quote]

And most people do value human life above all other types.

324

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

No I came to that conclusion through personal experience. Unfortunately I am unable to telegraph why to people outside of my own head.

It’s similar to people who have claimed to have had some sort of religious experience (jesus coming down and talking to them etc.) They can justify that particular belief to themselves. [/quote]

Wow, you believe in revelation. You are more spiritual than many Christians.[/quote]

I don’t know how you came to the conclusion I believe in revelation.[/quote]

Because that is exactly what you described…?[/quote]

Not divine revelation
[/quote]

Okay, I didn’t say it was, but since you bring it up, where was your revelation from? You have already admitted itÃ???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s not from a thought process, or logic, or reason. So where then?[/quote]

From being around and interacting with other humans.[/quote]

Lots of people interact with other humans and don’t get that revelation. If that experience was the revelation, we’d all have it.[/quote]

And most people do value human life above all other types.
[/quote]

Some do, some don’t. Most believe in a soul of some sort. What’s your point? You dodged the question again.

325

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

No I came to that conclusion through personal experience. Unfortunately I am unable to telegraph why to people outside of my own head.

It’s similar to people who have claimed to have had some sort of religious experience (jesus coming down and talking to them etc.) They can justify that particular belief to themselves. [/quote]

Wow, you believe in revelation. You are more spiritual than many Christians.[/quote]

I don’t know how you came to the conclusion I believe in revelation.[/quote]

Because that is exactly what you described…?[/quote]

Not divine revelation
[/quote]

Okay, I didn’t say it was, but since you bring it up, where was your revelation from? You have already admitted itÃ???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s not from a thought process, or logic, or reason. So where then?[/quote]

From being around and interacting with other humans.[/quote]

Lots of people interact with other humans and don’t get that revelation. If that experience was the revelation, we’d all have it.[/quote]

And most people do value human life above all other types.
[/quote]

Some do, some don’t. Most believe in a soul of some sort. What’s your point? You dodged the question again.[/quote]

No, I’m not. I already told you, it is your opinion my answer is unacceptable I disagree.

I came to the conclusion I value human life over other types based on my interaction with humans.

I don’t know what else you’re expecting but that’s why. I already told you I can’t logically tell you why, but that’s how I personally came to that conclusion.

326

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
So, now that we’ve arrived at the lack of inherent rights, there is no inherent right to continued employment with a Catholic school.[/quote]

Actually she was given rights by society[/quote]

Really? society has never given me a single right. Must be a Canada thing. And I am a Canadian Citizen, so what do I get if I go ‘home’?[/quote]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and_Freedoms[/quote]

Yeah, but those are government endowed rights, not societal.[/quote]

And who do you think forms the government?[/quote]

Depends on the country. I don’t think this line of reasoning is going to work. Society doesn’t give you anything, it’s just a hassle you have to deal with…

327

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
So, now that we’ve arrived at the lack of inherent rights, there is no inherent right to continued employment with a Catholic school.[/quote]

Actually she was given rights by society[/quote]

Really? society has never given me a single right. Must be a Canada thing. And I am a Canadian Citizen, so what do I get if I go ‘home’?[/quote]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and_Freedoms[/quote]

Yeah, but those are government endowed rights, not societal.[/quote]

And who do you think forms the government?[/quote]

Depends on the country. I don’t think this line of reasoning is going to work. Society doesn’t give you anything, it’s just a hassle you have to deal with…[/quote]

Members of society form the government… you get rights from society.

328

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

No I came to that conclusion through personal experience. Unfortunately I am unable to telegraph why to people outside of my own head.

It’s similar to people who have claimed to have had some sort of religious experience (jesus coming down and talking to them etc.) They can justify that particular belief to themselves. [/quote]

Wow, you believe in revelation. You are more spiritual than many Christians.[/quote]

I don’t know how you came to the conclusion I believe in revelation.[/quote]

Because that is exactly what you described…?[/quote]

Not divine revelation
[/quote]

Okay, I didn’t say it was, but since you bring it up, where was your revelation from? You have already admitted itÃ???Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s not from a thought process, or logic, or reason. So where then?[/quote]

From being around and interacting with other humans.[/quote]

Lots of people interact with other humans and don’t get that revelation. If that experience was the revelation, we’d all have it.[/quote]

And most people do value human life above all other types.
[/quote]

Some do, some don’t. Most believe in a soul of some sort. What’s your point? You dodged the question again.[/quote]

No, I’m not. I already told you, it is your opinion my answer is unacceptable I disagree.

I came to the conclusion I value human life over other types based on my interaction with humans.

I don’t know what else you’re expecting but that’s why. I already told you I can’t logically tell you why, but that’s how I personally came to that conclusion.[/quote]

You are quite the mystic. What you seem to be expressing is quite simply faith.

329

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:

It’s in her contract, even if not part of the faith she cannot openly go against the dogma of the church. There aren’t many things on that list, but abortion and IVF are. She has no case. They don’t make non-catholics follow the faith, but they do make them follow the rules of the institution. If you are being hired by a religiously affiliated institution, your going to have some rules that pertain to the religion. If you work for PETA and they catch you betting on a dog race, your ass will be fired. If you smoke you cannot work for the American Lung Society.
If she worshiped satan, burned a crucifix, proclaimed that she hates the church or God she would have not had her contract renewed too.

For the record, if anybody read the article she wasn’t fired, she just wasn’t rehired. Her contract was up and they did not offer her another one. They are in no obligation to offer anyone a contract and they have a right to refuse contract renewal to anyone for any reason save for blatant racial discrimination.
Even if she was out right fired she’d still have no case, but not getting a contract makes it even less of a case.

That was why I posted the question that got lost in the arguement over IVF. I was curious as to how teacher contracts are renewed from year to year (I work under a contract but it is obviously a different situation).
[/quote]
Yep, they work on 1 year contracts. Even the most tenured.

They have the documentation on hand I am sure. My guess is that they will submit the contract and the case will be dismissed. No employer is required to take you line by line through the rules and regulations.

[quote]
The fact she went to her direct superior and informed her of what she was doing and why she needed the days off and the superior didn’t speak up and say “Hold on this could get you into trouble” is one of the many questions I have on this?[/quote]

That is an interesting factoid that I would like more clarification on. If she went to her superior and said she’s going for fertility treatments, she probably didn’t bat an eye. If she said that she is specifically going for IVF, then the said superior is under obligation to get clarification on exactly what she is doing and inform her that she cannot do that and work there.
Quite frankly, if she didn’t know that creating and destroying embryos is a big fat no-no with regards to her place of employment, she may be to stupid to teach and shouldn’t be teaching in the first place. It’s not like it’s a big secret.
I would hope a place that is invading your body like that would be perfectly clear about what they are doing.
I seriously doubt they just told her, “We’re going to shove this thing up your twat and then your going to be pregnant.”

330

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]lanchefan1 wrote:

Yep I’m a fireman ;),

and thanks for your insight on this. That is why I keep saying there is more to this story than what we’ve seen so far.[/quote]

Firefighters are one of the very groups of people who always have my respect, no questions asked. And there is always more to these things then what is reported. As a famous TV character is fond of saying, everybody lies. That holds true for Catholic priests as well. I have no proof, but I would bet anything that the pope himself has told a fib or two in his life. In this case, it will be fairly easy to figure out the truth since their guidlines are required to be documented. The only real question will be whether this teacher, who had no religious responsibilities, claims to not be a member of the Catholic faith, and taught only secular classes can be legally considered a minister. I am leaning towards no if all those claims hold true.
[/quote]

It doesn’t matter if she had any ministerial roles or not, she as a member of the organization also represents it. A Catholic affiliated anything cannot people in their employ that do certain thing that violate the core tenants of the church. Having that is tacit approval for that activity.
If, for instance, you have a member of the KKK working in your organization and it’s found out, their ass will be fired. Even if the person doesn’t allow any of that activity to penetrate his work place, he’ll still be canned. Why? Because a reputable company cannot keep on board a person who is a member of the KKK because in some way that would mean the company either approves or is tolerant of that activity.

People can do lot’s not non-Catholic things and stay employed in Catholic institutions, but sanctity of life issues are non-negotiable. That is taken with the utmost seriousness and there if a flat zero tolerance policy.

331

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
So, now that we’ve arrived at the lack of inherent rights, there is no inherent right to continued employment with a Catholic school.[/quote]

Actually she was given rights by society[/quote]

Really? society has never given me a single right. Must be a Canada thing. And I am a Canadian Citizen, so what do I get if I go ‘home’?[/quote]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and_Freedoms[/quote]

Yeah, but those are government endowed rights, not societal.[/quote]

And who do you think forms the government?[/quote]

Depends on the country. I don’t think this line of reasoning is going to work. Society doesn’t give you anything, it’s just a hassle you have to deal with…[/quote]

Members of society form the government… you get rights from society. [/quote]

Tell that to the Syrians…

332

[quote]therajraj wrote:

Depends on the country. I don’t think this line of reasoning is going to work. Society doesn’t give you anything, it’s just a hassle you have to deal with…

Members of society form the government… you get rights from society. [/quote]

Politicians form the government, the jury is out whether that represents society or not. And that most certainly doesn’t speak for the said inalienable rights that are intrinsic to the individual.

333

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

Depends on the country. I don’t think this line of reasoning is going to work. Society doesn’t give you anything, it’s just a hassle you have to deal with…

Members of society form the government… you get rights from society. [/quote]

Politicians form the government, the jury is out whether that represents society or not. And that most certainly doesn’t speak for the said inalienable rights that are intrinsic to the individual.[/quote]

Politicians are members of society.

Inalienable rights exist? Please demonstrate that they do. I said the same thing to Sloth and BC. Does the black slave in the box have inalienable rights?

334

[quote]therajraj wrote:

Inalienable rights exist? Please demonstrate that they do.[/quote]

Says the guy who believes in the value of human life without the first inkling of a demonstration.

335

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

Inalienable rights exist? Please demonstrate that they do.[/quote]

Says the guy who believes in the value of human life without the first inkling of a demonstration.[/quote]

So what? I already said I can’t. If he is asserting that inalienable rights exist and doesn’t just personally believe it, he must demonstrate that they do.

336

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

Depends on the country. I don’t think this line of reasoning is going to work. Society doesn’t give you anything, it’s just a hassle you have to deal with…

Members of society form the government… you get rights from society. [/quote]

Politicians form the government, the jury is out whether that represents society or not. And that most certainly doesn’t speak for the said inalienable rights that are intrinsic to the individual.[/quote]

Politicians are members of society.

Inalienable rights exist? Please demonstrate that they do. I said the same thing to Sloth and BC. Does the black slave in the box have inalienable rights?[/quote]

Yes, they do. It doesn’t mean they won’t get trounced upon, which history bares out happens most of the time.

A person should have the right to live first. Then, a right to meet their basic needs, have some basic freedom and security. These rights are tied to human needs. If you take this away, that’s when people stop giving a shit if they live or die anymore and they revolt. Smart oppressors makes sure you have some semblance of these rights met and they are able to oppress much longer. Dumb ones, like Assad try to fuck everybody and that is likely why he will die sooner than later.
Technically, rights cannot be granted, they can only be taken away.

337

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

Inalienable rights exist? Please demonstrate that they do.[/quote]

Says the guy who believes in the value of human life without the first inkling of a demonstration.[/quote]

So what? I already said I can’t. If he is asserting that inalienable rights exist and doesn’t just personally believe it, he must demonstrate that they do.

[/quote]

Why should he, if you don’t. Unless you are now claiming that human life has only the relative value each person assigns to it. In which case you can’t claim human life has value, merely that you feel like it does in your opinion. Which is to say, you cannot fault someone for disagreeing and not living by your personal unsupported opinion.

338

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

No I came to that conclusion through personal experience. Unfortunately I am unable to telegraph why to people outside of my own head.

It’s similar to people who have claimed to have had some sort of religious experience (jesus coming down and talking to them etc.) They can justify that particular belief to themselves. [/quote]

Wow, you believe in revelation. You are more spiritual than many Christians.[/quote]

I don’t know how you came to the conclusion I believe in revelation.[/quote]

Because that is exactly what you described…?[/quote]

Not divine revelation
[/quote]

Okay, I didn’t say it was, but since you bring it up, where was your revelation from? You have already admitted itÃ???Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s not from a thought process, or logic, or reason. So where then?[/quote]

From being around and interacting with other humans.[/quote]

Lots of people interact with other humans and don’t get that revelation. If that experience was the revelation, we’d all have it.[/quote]

And most people do value human life above all other types.
[/quote]

I don’t agree with that at all.

339

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

Inalienable rights exist? Please demonstrate that they do.[/quote]

Says the guy who believes in the value of human life without the first inkling of a demonstration.[/quote]

So what? I already said I can’t. If he is asserting that inalienable rights exist and doesn’t just personally believe it, he must demonstrate that they do.

[/quote]
No, wait, I think DD has a point.
Why do you think human life has value? Isn’t it just another thing in the universe, no more or less important or valuable than anything else?

340

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:

Inalienable rights exist? Please demonstrate that they do.[/quote]

Says the guy who believes in the value of human life without the first inkling of a demonstration.[/quote]

So what? I already said I can’t. If he is asserting that inalienable rights exist and doesn’t just personally believe it, he must demonstrate that they do.

[/quote]
No, wait, I think DD has a point.
Why do you think human life has value? Isn’t it just another thing in the universe, no more or less important or valuable than anything else?[/quote]

You want to walk him in circles around this gaping hole in his belief structure a while?