[quote]therajraj wrote:
If a baseball and bat cost $110, and the bat costs $100 more than the ball, how much does the ball cost?[/quote]
The ball costs $5.
The bat costs $105
Total of $110
Thank you, I’ll be here all week!
[quote]therajraj wrote:
For the love of hamburgers can we not turn this into an abortion thread ?[/quote]
Mmmmmm shrimp.
I love shrimp.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Correct. Eight cells clumped together is not in any way “life”. No brain, no heart beat, no organ structure, no nervous system, nothing. No life. Is this all very confusing for you?[/quote]
Oh, so let me get this strait, these 8 cells clumped together aren’t life? [/quote]
NO
[quote]pat wrote:
You sure you want to stand by that statement? They aren’t alive, there is no life within them? That’s you’re serious proposition?[/quote]
Yes, I stand by my position that living tissue is not “life”.
[quote]pat wrote:
Ok, I’ll play. So is it dead? Or isn’t some spontaneous mineral reaction happens and “POW!”, a person pops out for no reason? Now I am confused.[/quote]
Yes, I’m quite aware that this is confusing to you. —>insert face palm here<—
[quote]pat wrote:
Oh, does that mean that something with out a nervous system, brain, no heart, then it’s not alive?[/quote]
Correct. No brain, no heart, no organ structure, no nervous system, nothing.
Not life.
[quote]pat wrote:
Ok, but I know lots of stuff that doesn’t have any of that stuff and it’s still a living autonomous thing.[/quote]
Go on…
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
I know how much you love your catholic soap box, but all of your religious pontification won’t change the fact. Myself and a very large part of the US population do NOT see the embryo as “life”, they see it as a cell clump and nothing more. [/quote]
Just a hint, this would be a good time for one of those links. You know the one that backs up, your shit about the population thinking? That’s also called ‘argumentum ad populum’
Of course, I think it would be an utter waste of time. Because it has nothing to do with the fact that the a fore mentioned 8 cell clump is an autonomous human life or it it isn’t.
You are really obsessively concerned about my faith. It seems to be all your really concerned with. Why, I am not actually talking about it at all, you keep, repeating bring it up. Beats me why, unless you really got nothing else going. You either need to prove to me that the said 8-cell clump is not an autonomous human life, or you have to convince me that there is a point where the human life matters less than at other points in the cycle between life and death.
Bringing up my faith is completely relevant to the issue. Your atheism colors your thoughts, so who cares. Not everything is a religious stance pissing contest. [/quote]
Silly me, I thought that discussing your catholic faith w/r/t IVF would be relevant in a thread about catholic faith w/r/t IVF. Huh…
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
I realize that this bothers you, and to be honest, I don’t really give a fuck.[/quote]
Seems to me, you give a giant fuck. Your obsessed.[/quote]
See above.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
If it helps though, you could hang out after mass and talk with the other parishioners about what dreadful sinners we all are. But forcing your religious belief onto others isn’t very nice patty cakes.[/quote]
Oh, is that an accusation? Please show where I have done that. [/quote]
Honestly, I have no idea if this is something that you actually do. I was just adding some funny to the point that forcing your religious beliefs on others isn’t very nice. I was also, once again, getting at the fact that fact that you’re perfectly free to think otherwise regarding IVF and whehter or not an eight cell embryo is “life”. You’re a catholic, and the catholic church, as well as all of it’s followers, are free to believe whatever the fuck you want. And yes, you’re even free to discuss the “grave immoral sins” of people like me.
My comment however, WAS based on my personal experiences w/r/t mass. I WAS a practicing catholic before I proudly joined the reality based community.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Again, not life…[/quote]
Technically could be considered life, but so are a lot of other things even plant cells that nobody cares about.[/quote]
Sure, pat obviously does, depends on your personal philosophy.
But my point in this IVF discussion is that many, many people do not think that an embryo consisting of eight cells does not constitute life. If pat wants to subscribe to catholic doctrine and call that life, then so be it, that’s his right to do so. He doesn’t have to participate in the IVF process if he doesn’t want to, and is perfectly free to take a vocal stand against it if he so chooses.
Neither pat nor his religion have the right to “ban it altogether” based on their religious beliefs. Pat doesn’t seem to get that.
[/quote]
Ah, I see you are going for the ‘human life is ok to take at certain points’. So by this, I take it you concede it’s an autonomous human life? Now we’re on to ‘well it doesn’t really look like ‘us’.’
Your obsession with my religion is bordering on creepy. I don’t talk about it as much as you do. Not even close.[/quote]
NO
I’m still going with the “eight cells clumped together is not human life”, and the “hell no it’s not an autonomous human life”.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Again, not life…[/quote]
Define life. [/quote]
I think the extended definition regarding what defines human life is personal and philosophical in nature. Personally, I think that human life begins at some point when an embryo has developed into a fetus with the parameters that I’ve already talked about; organ structure, brain function, heart beat, nervous system, etc. Certainly not an eight cell embryo, in a lab, with none of those qualities.
Also, I feel I should restate that this isn’t an abortion debate, but specifically having to do with IVF and the embryo’s associated with that process.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]nocturnus wrote:
Aaaahhh, the Catholic Church - where birth control and IVF make you a ‘grave, immoral sinner’ but abusing kids and covering it up is acceptable.
Strange set of rules.[/quote]
You got that right.
[/quote]
Don’t worry, your record is safe. Atheists have murdered over 300 million in the 20th century alone. Nobody is going to beat that record anytime soon. And according to nocturnus, if a few people belonging to a group do a bad thing, it is automatically acceptable by that group. Ergo, in that model, atheists murdering non-atheists is acceptable to atheists. Just like abusing kids is acceptable to Catholics. [/quote]
Ah yes, the old meme of “atheists killing in the name of no god”. LOL…yea
Glad you dragged this out, I’ll have a chance to address it later.[/quote]
Go nuts.[/quote]
On second thought, this old meme is so tired and fallacious that it’s really not worth the time. I do believe that a face palm is in order though, as a tribute to such a classically shit stupid line of reasoning.
[/quote]
Good boy!
It goes both ways you know. You do realize you started this ‘classic shit line’ of reasoning? I was just happy to play along, like I said I have good documentation.
We are no more for molestation than you are for mass murder. But if you say we are for molestation, than I will say you are for mass murder.[/quote]
You have documentation for jack shit. But if you’d like, we could move this conversation over to the hijack thread and continue there.
And my issue with the whole catholic church child molestation debacle is largely due to the cover up that went on. that was reprehensible IMHO. Your church covered it up, just own up to that. So, on one hand they’re working real hard to cover up the child molestations that were going on with their own priests, and on the other hand condemning people as “grave sinners” for wanting IVF, or being on the pill, or living together before marriage, or using rubbers…
So yea, not just a strange set of rules that they run with, but a strange set of values as presented by their actions.
[/quote]
Yup, people in the church fucked up real bad. I agree 100%. It doesn’t mean, because some people did evil shit, that the rest of the population isn’t doing right.
Of course it was reprehensible, I supposed you are tied in knots about all occurrences of sexual abuse.[/quote]
Yes, child abuse and the lasting effects of it is a subject that very personal for me and my family. And no, I do not care to go into details.
[quote]pat wrote:
You’re not just singling out people in the church?[/quote]
No, but this discussion IS about the catholic clergy, their abuses, and the giant cover up.
[quote]pat wrote:
You do realize this is a world wide pandemic and you are outraged damn it![/quote]
Yes I do, and yes I am.
[quote]pat wrote:
You are doing everything in your power to help those kids in Africa and Haiti and the child sexual slavery happening here and infecting every part of society?[/quote]
I do what I can to help just as you do I assume.
[quote]pat wrote:
You’re concerned about the kids right? You’re upset about what happened to them right?
[/quote]
Yes, child sexual abuse bothers me, and leaves me quite disgusted. Which is why I get so disgusted when I enter into conversations, such as this, regarding the child sexual abuse that was carried out and covered up by the catholic church. It disgust me in every circumstance, however at the moment, we’re talking about the child sexual abuse that was carried out by THE CATHOLIC CLERGY. The same church that expended so much effort in a cover up, but yet claims to love children. I say, by the evidence of their actions, they love their church just a bit more. Wouldn’t you say?
Oh yea, and parents choosing IVF are “grave immoral sinners” too.
Okay…sure.
EDIT: But feel free, patty cakes, to start a separate thread where we can talk about the world wide pandemic of child sexual abuse, and what role the catholic clergy has played in it. You should do that.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Correct. Eight cells clumped together is not in any way “life”. No brain, no heart beat, no organ structure, no nervous system, nothing. No life. Is this all very confusing for you?[/quote]
Oh, so let me get this strait, these 8 cells clumped together aren’t life? [/quote]
NO
[quote]pat wrote:
You sure you want to stand by that statement? They aren’t alive, there is no life within them? That’s you’re serious proposition?[/quote]
Yes, I stand by my position that living tissue is not “life”.
[quote]pat wrote:
Ok, I’ll play. So is it dead? Or isn’t some spontaneous mineral reaction happens and “POW!”, a person pops out for no reason? Now I am confused.[/quote]
Yes, I’m quite aware that this is confusing to you. —>insert face palm here<—
[quote]pat wrote:
Oh, does that mean that something with out a nervous system, brain, no heart, then it’s not alive?[/quote]
Correct. No brain, no heart, no organ structure, no nervous system, nothing.
Not life.
[quote]pat wrote:
Ok, but I know lots of stuff that doesn’t have any of that stuff and it’s still a living autonomous thing.[/quote]
Go on…
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
I know how much you love your catholic soap box, but all of your religious pontification won’t change the fact. Myself and a very large part of the US population do NOT see the embryo as “life”, they see it as a cell clump and nothing more. [/quote]
Just a hint, this would be a good time for one of those links. You know the one that backs up, your shit about the population thinking? That’s also called ‘argumentum ad populum’
Of course, I think it would be an utter waste of time. Because it has nothing to do with the fact that the a fore mentioned 8 cell clump is an autonomous human life or it it isn’t.
You are really obsessively concerned about my faith. It seems to be all your really concerned with. Why, I am not actually talking about it at all, you keep, repeating bring it up. Beats me why, unless you really got nothing else going. You either need to prove to me that the said 8-cell clump is not an autonomous human life, or you have to convince me that there is a point where the human life matters less than at other points in the cycle between life and death.
Bringing up my faith is completely relevant to the issue. Your atheism colors your thoughts, so who cares. Not everything is a religious stance pissing contest. [/quote]
Silly me, I thought that discussing your catholic faith w/r/t IVF would be relevant in a thread about catholic faith w/r/t IVF. Huh…
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
I realize that this bothers you, and to be honest, I don’t really give a fuck.[/quote]
Seems to me, you give a giant fuck. Your obsessed.[/quote]
See above.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
If it helps though, you could hang out after mass and talk with the other parishioners about what dreadful sinners we all are. But forcing your religious belief onto others isn’t very nice patty cakes.[/quote]
Oh, is that an accusation? Please show where I have done that. [/quote]
Honestly, I have no idea if this is something that you actually do. I was just adding some funny to the point that forcing your religious beliefs on others isn’t very nice. I was also, once again, getting at the fact that fact that you’re perfectly free to think otherwise regarding IVF and whehter or not an eight cell embryo is “life”. You’re a catholic, and the catholic church, as well as all of it’s followers, are free to believe whatever the fuck you want. And yes, you’re even free to discuss the “grave immoral sins” of people like me.
My comment however, WAS based on my personal experiences w/r/t mass. I WAS a practicing catholic before I proudly joined the reality based community.
[/quote]
The issue of IVF itself is not a ‘catholic’ issue. The teacher being fired was, but you weren’t really talking about that. You were claiming that a zygote, in the earliest of stages isn’t a human life. I say it is, I have backed it up with a source. I can happily re-post the source or dig up some new ones if you wish.
The fact that an zygote is or is not a human life is not a religious issue. The religious part of the issue is whether or not it’s ok to take a human life or discard a human life.
The issue of whether or not the zygote is an autonomous human life is a scientific question. I know you really badly not want it to be one, but you thinking it with no back up of any kind is pretty much completely meaningless.
So if it’s not an autonomous human life what is it? And also please include one unbiased link to back it up.
And I really don’t give a shit what you once were so you can not waste your time telling me. For being reality based, you sure function off of a whole lot of wishful thinking. First you say you’re all about science. Now science backs up something you don’t like so I guess science is not full of shit and your right. Wow, you sure have it together… Whatev’s…
You talk all big and tough, but it’s just a giant facade, behind it ain’t much.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Again, not life…[/quote]
Technically could be considered life, but so are a lot of other things even plant cells that nobody cares about.[/quote]
Sure, pat obviously does, depends on your personal philosophy.
But my point in this IVF discussion is that many, many people do not think that an embryo consisting of eight cells does not constitute life. If pat wants to subscribe to catholic doctrine and call that life, then so be it, that’s his right to do so. He doesn’t have to participate in the IVF process if he doesn’t want to, and is perfectly free to take a vocal stand against it if he so chooses.
Neither pat nor his religion have the right to “ban it altogether” based on their religious beliefs. Pat doesn’t seem to get that.
[/quote]
Ah, I see you are going for the ‘human life is ok to take at certain points’. So by this, I take it you concede it’s an autonomous human life? Now we’re on to ‘well it doesn’t really look like ‘us’.’
Your obsession with my religion is bordering on creepy. I don’t talk about it as much as you do. Not even close.[/quote]
NO
I’m still going with the “eight cells clumped together is not human life”, and the “hell no it’s not an autonomous human life”.
[/quote]
Fine, prove it. What is it, if not a autonomous human life? Every living thing is a clump of cells so you can drop that nonsense.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Are the children evil? If an act is evil, then the results must be too.[/quote]
I’d like to see your proof for this.
But it’s not.
[/quote]
(1) Getting in-vitro is evil.
(2) Good cannot come out of evil, especially ‘inherently evil’.
(3) Therefore the kids are a result of an evil act and are evil.
Exorcism recommended.
[/quote]
Your second premise is false, therefore I reject your conclusion. Good can definitely come out of evil. Unless you consider the saving of the world an evil, because of course the great evil of Calvary did produce that good. That, however, doesn’t remove blame from those who crucified Jesus, nor does it change the fact that the ends can never justify the means.
I’ll explain further. I have to go to lunch.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]nocturnus wrote:
Aaaahhh, the Catholic Church - where birth control and IVF make you a ‘grave, immoral sinner’ but abusing kids and covering it up is acceptable.
Strange set of rules.[/quote]
You got that right.
[/quote]
Don’t worry, your record is safe. Atheists have murdered over 300 million in the 20th century alone. Nobody is going to beat that record anytime soon. And according to nocturnus, if a few people belonging to a group do a bad thing, it is automatically acceptable by that group. Ergo, in that model, atheists murdering non-atheists is acceptable to atheists. Just like abusing kids is acceptable to Catholics. [/quote]
Ah yes, the old meme of “atheists killing in the name of no god”. LOL…yea
Glad you dragged this out, I’ll have a chance to address it later.[/quote]
Go nuts.[/quote]
On second thought, this old meme is so tired and fallacious that it’s really not worth the time. I do believe that a face palm is in order though, as a tribute to such a classically shit stupid line of reasoning.
[/quote]
Good boy!
It goes both ways you know. You do realize you started this ‘classic shit line’ of reasoning? I was just happy to play along, like I said I have good documentation.
We are no more for molestation than you are for mass murder. But if you say we are for molestation, than I will say you are for mass murder.[/quote]
You have documentation for jack shit. But if you’d like, we could move this conversation over to the hijack thread and continue there.
And my issue with the whole catholic church child molestation debacle is largely due to the cover up that went on. that was reprehensible IMHO. Your church covered it up, just own up to that. So, on one hand they’re working real hard to cover up the child molestations that were going on with their own priests, and on the other hand condemning people as “grave sinners” for wanting IVF, or being on the pill, or living together before marriage, or using rubbers…
So yea, not just a strange set of rules that they run with, but a strange set of values as presented by their actions.
[/quote]
Yup, people in the church fucked up real bad. I agree 100%. It doesn’t mean, because some people did evil shit, that the rest of the population isn’t doing right.
Of course it was reprehensible, I supposed you are tied in knots about all occurrences of sexual abuse.[/quote]
Yes, child abuse and the lasting effects of it is a subject that very personal for me and my family. And no, I do not care to go into details.
[quote]pat wrote:
You’re not just singling out people in the church?[/quote]
No, but this discussion IS about the catholic clergy, their abuses, and the giant cover up.
[/quote]
No it’s not. It’s about a teacher who did not have her contract renewed because she chose to participate in immoral act and ran her dumb ass mouth about it.
Seriously, where did you get confused?
Good for you. Who else are you mad at because of it?
Yes, child sexual abuse bothers me, and leaves me quite disgusted. Which is why I get so disgusted when I enter into conversations, such as this, regarding the child sexual abuse that was carried out and covered up by the catholic church. It disgust me in every circumstance, however at the moment, we’re talking about the child sexual abuse that was carried out by THE CATHOLIC CLERGY. The same church that expended so much effort in a cover up, but yet claims to love children. I say, by the evidence of their actions, they love their church just a bit more. Wouldn’t you say?
[/quote]
The ‘church’ didn’t expend effort to cover it up, people in the church did, but it’s not the whole damn thing. Like I said, this involved less than 1% of the clergy. Well horrible in it’s own right, it’s far from epidemic as you would hope. If you did any research at all in the topic rather than just nod your head at the news media and your little atheist propaganda you take unchecked as fact, you would find that the vast majority of child sexual abuse was and is not committed by clergymen. Accusations don’t count as real accounts in that many folks were looking to get paid too. But acquittals are page 50 news.
I am pretty sure you actually don’t give a crap about truth and fact. You have some jihad against religion and you want to attack it anyway you can. You don’t give a fuck about kids or sexual abuse. That’s the truth. You just want to get your jabs in, that’s all really. And, if you couldn’t read, this thread wasn’t about that, even if your trying to make it about it.
Like I said before, if sexual abuse is reflective of Catholics, then mass murder is reflective of atheists. I will say though, they didn’t care much about covering it up.
If they are willfully creating and subsequently destroying human life, then yeah.
[quote]
EDIT: But feel free, patty cakes, to start a separate thread where we can talk about the world wide pandemic of child sexual abuse, and what role the catholic clergy has played in it. You should do that.[/quote]
That’s been done to death, many times over. Seems your the one obsessed with it and religion for that matter. That I do find interesting
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Are the children evil? If an act is evil, then the results must be too.[/quote]
I’d like to see your proof for this.
But it’s not.
[/quote]
(1) Getting in-vitro is evil.
(2) Good cannot come out of evil, especially ‘inherently evil’.
(3) Therefore the kids are a result of an evil act and are evil.
Exorcism recommended.
[/quote]
Your second premise is false, therefore I reject your conclusion. Good can definitely come out of evil. Unless you consider the saving of the world an evil, because of course the great evil of Calvary did produce that good. That, however, doesn’t remove blame from those who crucified Jesus, nor does it change the fact that the ends can never justify the means.
I’ll explain further. I have to go to lunch.[/quote]
Actually the whole argument suffers from the fallacy of ignorance, and is also a non-sequiter. It’s just bad.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Your second premise is false, therefore I reject your conclusion. Good can definitely come out of evil. Unless you consider the saving of the world an evil, because of course the great evil of Calvary did produce that good. That, however, doesn’t remove blame from those who crucified Jesus, nor does it change the fact that the ends can never justify the means. >>>[/quote]Very VERY good Christopher. Couldn’t have said it better myself (well… maybe a little =] ) I wish you could be right like this all the time.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Again, not life…[/quote]
Define life. [/quote]
I think the extended definition regarding what defines human life is personal and philosophical in nature. Personally, I think that human life begins at some point when an embryo has developed into a fetus with the parameters that I’ve already talked about; organ structure, brain function, heart beat, nervous system, etc. Certainly not an eight cell embryo, in a lab, with none of those qualities.
Also, I feel I should restate that this isn’t an abortion debate, but specifically having to do with IVF and the embryo’s associated with that process.[/quote]
Sorry, I made this so confusing. I am not asking for a philosophical abstract definition, I am asking for the biological definition of life based on empirical observation, what characteristics are inherent to all things living?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Your second premise is false, therefore I reject your conclusion. Good can definitely come out of evil. Unless you consider the saving of the world an evil, because of course the great evil of Calvary did produce that good. That, however, doesn’t remove blame from those who crucified Jesus, nor does it change the fact that the ends can never justify the means. >>>[/quote]Very VERY good Christopher. Couldn’t have said it better myself (well… maybe a little =] ) I wish you could be right like this all the time.
[/quote]
I always try and put it in as simple terms as possible. My thesis project reads like a Dr. Seuss story.
[quote]nocturnus wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
If a baseball and bat cost $110, and the bat costs $100 more than the ball, how much does the ball cost?[/quote]
The ball costs $5.
The bat costs $105
Total of $110
Thank you, I’ll be here all week![/quote]
After you guys have answered this, look in the MLB thread in GAL
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
And there it is folks, the compassion and understanding of god and his fan club.
So what say you, theists among us, is this a case of “grave, immoral sin”? Was the teacher’s firing warranted?
[/quote]
Oh brother. The problem is the farming of embryos. Making and disguarding embryos is tantamount to abortion. That’s the problem. Yes, this teacher’s firing was totally warranted. It’s a disgusting practice that is morally abhorrent and should be banned all together.
I know this doesn’t make sense to you, but we value human life, where as human life is about as valuable to you as getting gum stuck to your shoe. So I am not surprised you don’t get it.
But see that’s why you need religious people even if you hate them. We clean up all the morally disgusting shit you guys do. [/quote]
You miss the point, it’s funny to us that you obsess over silly stuff like this and then look the other way on child rape, torture and mutilation. No doubt this has been pointed out to already, but embryos aren’t people. If the whole point of morality is the well being of human beings, how can you even claim to have a morality if you don’t understand what a person is?
[quote]Whelanj wrote:
You miss the point, it’s funny to us that you obsess over silly stuff like this and then look the other way on child rape, torture and mutilation. No doubt this has been pointed out to already, but embryos aren’t people. If the whole point of morality is the well being of human beings, how can you even claim to have a morality if you don’t understand what a person is?[/quote]
So far let’s count…1…2…3 claims without evidence. The fact that they are all wrong, makes it hilarious. Please prove your premises.
Pat has never looked the other way on child rape, torture, or mutilation. If embryos aren’t persons what are they? And, why is the whole point of morality the well being of human beings?
Not bad again Chris. As tense as things have gotten with Pat and I, I would never accuse him of that. Of course an embryo is a human life and morality has nothing primarily to do with the well being of human beings.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Again, not life…[/quote]
Technically could be considered life, but so are a lot of other things even plant cells that nobody cares about.[/quote]
Sure, pat obviously does, depends on your personal philosophy.
But my point in this IVF discussion is that many, many people do not think that an embryo consisting of eight cells does not constitute life. If pat wants to subscribe to catholic doctrine and call that life, then so be it, that’s his right to do so. He doesn’t have to participate in the IVF process if he doesn’t want to, and is perfectly free to take a vocal stand against it if he so chooses.
Neither pat nor his religion have the right to “ban it altogether” based on their religious beliefs. Pat doesn’t seem to get that.
[/quote]
Ah, I see you are going for the ‘human life is ok to take at certain points’. So by this, I take it you concede it’s an autonomous human life? Now we’re on to ‘well it doesn’t really look like ‘us’.’
Your obsession with my religion is bordering on creepy. I don’t talk about it as much as you do. Not even close.[/quote]
NO
I’m still going with the “eight cells clumped together is not human life”, and the “hell no it’s not an autonomous human life”.
[/quote]
Fine, prove it. What is it, if not a autonomous human life? Every living thing is a clump of cells so you can drop that nonsense.[/quote]
Cant prove a negative.
Prove that its no unicorn.
Too bad this thread is now so far off topic it can’t be saved…