Both sons have keys and cars, but neither can drive though they both scornfully insist they can. In fact they’re both blind and mentally handicapped too, yet here they are careening through the streets a deadly disaster on the way for certain. Both reject any suggestion that they might not know what they’re doing. God gives one sight, heals his mind and teaches him to drive. He leaves the other to crash and maybe take somebody else out with him (they also all have keys and cars, cannot drive, but insist they can as well) He created them both, along with the cars, keys, roads and victims. He could have justly left both rebels to crash, but saves one. He caused the other to exist with no intention of saving him. Call that whatever you want and do the math yourself.
Christopher my dear friend you now KNOW that predestination and election are taught in some form in the bible. I’ll give ya credit for coming even this far. Now think… please, and this is clearly contained in the inspired language of scripture. Election that includes everyone and excludes no one has just been defined out of existence and God’s usage of human language is meaningless.
BTW, I’ll politely overlook your truly meat headed characterization of my motivations. Man I hope we meet in person one day. This is so tough to do like this.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Both sons have keys and cars, but neither can drive though they both scornfully insist they can. In fact they’re both blind and mentally handicapped too, yet here they are careening through the streets a deadly disaster on the way for certain. Both reject any suggestion that they might not know what they’re doing. God gives one sight, heals his mind and teaches him to drive. He leaves the other to crash and maybe take somebody else out with him (they also all have keys and cars, cannot drive, but insist they can as well) He created them both, along with the cars, keys, roads and victims. He could have justly left both rebels to crash, but saves one. He caused the other to exist with no intention of saving him. Call that whatever you want and do the math yourself.[/quote]
Except that is false teaching, that is the heretical doctrines of Calvinist TULIP (which I find no where expressly in the Bible so it violates Sola Scriptura for you). As well, you have yet to prove or even have authority to prove it true. All you espouse is a sect of modernism, which was dreamed up by a humanist lawyer, who disobeyed* Church authority.
You should really make the distinction between double-predestination and predestination. Thomist believe in predestination, but Calvinist believe in double-predestination. Which the latter is heresy and the former is not.
The only people that are saved are those that die in the state of God’s grace. Figure out how you enter into a state of grace and you’ll find out how one dies in a state of grace. I’ll give you a clue, it is not faith alone and it’s only through grace.
Why would you want to meet in person. I had thought we worked out a polite acquaintance but then you had to go about talking about blowing up Catholics, again, with your little .gif picture.
I have a question, not near as deep as the topic you guys are on though, and may have been touched on in post past. What are the views on 1)suicide, 2)asking for and recieving forgiveness after commiting a sin (say murder)3)the fate of someone with a mental illness such as severe depression/PTSD/or anything along those lines and not able to fully understand and accept God?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< The only people that are saved are those that die in the state of God’s grace. >>>[/quote]Which includes blasphemous polytheistic mormons, arian JW’s, vicious calvinists, and all manner of generally well intentioned heathen from the middle class moralist to the tribesman in deepest darkest Africa. In other words pretty much everybody who doesn’t put forth a willful valiant effort at going to hell. Damnable lies for which your satanic church will be held eternally responsible. Oh the weeping and gnashing of there WILL be. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Figure out how you enter into a state of grace and you’ll find out how one dies in a state of grace. I’ll give you a clue, it is not faith alone and it’s only through grace. >>>[/quote]I had to chuckle at this. Figure out? You need deliverance my dear friend if you think God’s grace is “figured out”. He raised me from true death to abundant life in the power of His resurrection 26 years ago.
He has kept me when I horrifically backslid and TRIED to escape Him. He kept me as I cursed His name to His face, flipped off heaven (literally) and dared Him to kill me. He is keeping me now through the most dire and crushing trials of my entire life to this point. He is there first and holds me in His arms when I daily cry out to Him for strength to carry on. I take my every breath in yearning anticipation of the shattering of that dark glass or mortality so that I can at last gaze into that glorious beautiful face.
“Figure out” His grace Chris? His grace is available, YES, only by grace. What you have “figured out” is a greased slide into the jaws of hell if you do not repent. You need to forsake your cookie worship and get a clue yourself before you start offering clues to others. MY GOD isn’t that hateful!? Absolutely NOT. It is loving indeed and I really do believe you will get that one day. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< you had to go about talking about blowing up Catholics, again, with your little .gif picture.[/quote]I’d beseech the Lord for an evacuation before He vaporized that edifice of evil with breath of His mouth. I would pray that His unmistakable judgment be used mightily to free millions from the clawed clutches of that pagan pretender. Now you’re gonna be all angry again and set up another grudge to hold, but I cannot help that Chris. It’s just posts like this one that break my heart and reinforce the utter disdain with which I hold that romish church. It is revolting and deadly.
Tirib, statements like this demonstrate starkly and unequivocally that you have NO CLUE what the Catholic church actually teaches. Your motivations show through like a bloody heart on your sleeve.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
<<>>[/quote]
And yet you are the blindest one here…Run from the truth tirib, it will bite. The truth of the scriptures is like a nuclear bomb on the false teaching of that murderer Calvin. Everything he taught was a lie. You believe in lies come in to the light and leave those lies behind tirib. Don’t let your hatred of me blind you to the truth of God.
[quote]Travis56 wrote:
I have a question, not near as deep as the topic you guys are on though, and may have been touched on in post past. What are the views on 1)suicide, 2)asking for and recieving forgiveness after commiting a sin (say murder)3)the fate of someone with a mental illness such as severe depression/PTSD/or anything along those lines and not able to fully understand and accept God?[/quote]
1)suicide - It’s a big no no, but it is also accepted that those who commit suicide are not likely in their ‘right’ mind and therefore not fully culpable necessarily. If the suicide was commited in the ‘right’ mind as a willful and cowardly act, then it is a damning one. Though nobody knows, nor can judge but God himself.
2)asking for and recieving forgiveness after commiting a sin (say murder) - A sincere and contrite confession of sin and renunciation of sins is necessary for salvation, no matter the gravity. It does not necessarily free you from the consequences (though it may), but it reconciles you with God, where as sin separates you from God. Of course, sincerity is the key and nobody knows the heart but God.
3)the fate of someone with a mental illness such as severe depression/PTSD/or anything along those lines and not able to fully understand and accept God? - People are held in account according to their abilities. If their capacities for understanding and behaviour are compromised, their culpability is diminished according to their disability. God judges each on their own merits.
Tirib, statements like this demonstrate starkly and unequivocally that you have NO CLUE what the Catholic church actually teaches. Your motivations show through like a bloody heart on your sleeve. [/quote]
Oh no, don’t you know, he knows the Catholic Church better than Catholics! He also thinks Jesus lied in Mat 16:18. He thinks Calvin is the real prophet. LOL!
Of course, he also likened himself to the prophet Jeremiah, so there you go.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Both sons have keys and cars, but neither can drive though they both scornfully insist they can. In fact they’re both blind and mentally handicapped too, yet here they are careening through the streets a deadly disaster on the way for certain. Both reject any suggestion that they might not know what they’re doing. God gives one sight, heals his mind and teaches him to drive. He leaves the other to crash and maybe take somebody else out with him (they also all have keys and cars, cannot drive, but insist they can as well) He created them both, along with the cars, keys, roads and victims. He could have justly left both rebels to crash, but saves one. He caused the other to exist with no intention of saving him. Call that whatever you want and do the math yourself.
Christopher my dear friend you now KNOW that predestination and election are taught in some form in the bible. I’ll give ya credit for coming even this far. Now think… please, and this is clearly contained in the inspired language of scripture. Election that includes everyone and excludes no one has just been defined out of existence and God’s usage of human language is meaningless.
BTW, I’ll politely overlook your truly meat headed characterization of my motivations. Man I hope we meet in person one day. This is so tough to do like this.[/quote]
The elected are those whom, in his omniscience, god knows will choose to accept his free gift to all. Knowing this in no way interferes with the exercise of their free will. All are free to accept or reject the gospel, and god elects those who choose to accept him.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< The only people that are saved are those that die in the state of God’s grace. >>>[/quote]Which includes blasphemous polytheistic mormons, arian JW’s, vicious calvinists, and all manner of generally well intentioned heathen from the middle class moralist to the tribesman in deepest darkest Africa. In other words pretty much everybody who doesn’t put forth a willful valiant effort at going to hell. Damnable lies for which your satanic church will be held eternally responsible. Oh the weeping and gnashing of there WILL be. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Figure out how you enter into a state of grace and you’ll find out how one dies in a state of grace. I’ll give you a clue, it is not faith alone and it’s only through grace. >>>[/quote]I had to chuckle at this. Figure out? You need deliverance my dear friend if you think God’s grace is “figured out”. He raised me from true death to abundant life in the power of His resurrection 26 years ago.
He has kept me when I horrifically backslid and TRIED to escape Him. He kept me as I cursed His name to His face, flipped off heaven (literally) and dared Him to kill me. He is keeping me now through the most dire and crushing trials of my entire life to this point. He is there first and holds me in His arms when I daily cry out to Him for strength to carry on. I take my every breath in yearning anticipation of the shattering of that dark glass or mortality so that I can at last gaze into that glorious beautiful face.
“Figure out” His grace Chris? His grace is available, YES, only by grace. What you have “figured out” is a greased slide into the jaws of hell if you do not repent. You need to forsake your cookie worship and get a clue yourself before you start offering clues to others. MY GOD isn’t that hateful!? Absolutely NOT. It is loving indeed and I really do believe you will get that one day. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< you had to go about talking about blowing up Catholics, again, with your little .gif picture.[/quote]I’d beseech the Lord for an evacuation before He vaporized that edifice of evil with breath of His mouth. I would pray that His unmistakable judgment be used mightily to free millions from the clawed clutches of that pagan pretender. Now you’re gonna be all angry again and set up another grudge to hold, but I cannot help that Chris. It’s just posts like this one that break my heart and reinforce the utter disdain with which I hold that romish church. It is revolting and deadly.
[/quote]
[quote]Travis56 wrote:
I have a question, not near as deep as the topic you guys are on though, and may have been touched on in post past. What are the views on 1)suicide, 2)asking for and recieving forgiveness after commiting a sin (say murder)3)the fate of someone with a mental illness such as severe depression/PTSD/or anything along those lines and not able to fully understand and accept God?[/quote]
Thou shalt not kill is the fifth commandment. And because of this suicide is of grave matter, as breaking any of the ten commandments is a grave matter. It can become mortal, however, only if the person has full knowledge of what they are doing and does it deliberately and with complete consent. One can argue that a person at times can commit suicide without it being a mortal sin.
To ask forgiveness one has to have at least a partially contrite heart and a resolve to no longer commit sin again (not the same as won’t ever commit sin again, but going to confession with the intent of going back out and doing it again).
Well one has hope and knowledge of the Father’s mercy being greater than his justice. I am not aware of the ins and outs of that particular scenario. However, one is always given a chance to accept the Gospel in his lifetime. Even the Fathers which were in Abraham’s bosom or limbo of the Fathers (referred to as prison in the gospels, which Jesus descended to) had the chance to hear the Gospel and accept it when Jesus descended to them.
Not many folks do fully accept and love God, that is because of our inherent sin. That is also why some that die with imperfect love for God go to his merciful Purgatory in which they are purified so as to be able to perfectly love God.
Now, if those people for some reason or the other were actually unable to accept it, but still were after God’s heart and repented and hated of evil ways perfectly (although were not baptized and instructed in his Commandments), because of God’s abundant Mercy and because his Mercy is greater than his Justice we can hope that they would have his Salvation. What cannot happen is rejection of the Gospel, which yes there is a difference between not accepting it and rejecting it.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Protestant emotional diatribe against Christ the Church and even worse his Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.[/quote]
I have no tolerance for such blaspheme. Any weight you had with me just went out the door. You show your self with such disgusting behavior and utter lack of respect. I advise you to apologize and not to test me on this.
Who cares what Tirib thinks about Catholicism or Mormonism? Or, what we Catholics think of Calvinism, or even prots in general? Is this a contest to see who can use the most archaic, overly-dramatic, colorful language in condemning the other’s dogmas and doctrines? Don’t we already know the disagreements?
The last place I’d ever want inquiring minds to seek some answers would be this thread. Seriously? Why not keep this sectarian crap out of PWI? Until Tirib and Pat find followers to lob missiles at each other, or in crashing planes into each others cities, fine. See, I can be a drama queen, too. But, for crying out loud what a sad and stubborn display.
Now, I am done. Stop casting your pearls, both sides. Save a scrap of respectable appearance for Christendom, would ya?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Who cares what Tirib thinks about Catholicism or Mormonism? Or, what we Catholics think of Calvinism, or even prots in general? Is this a contest to see who can use the most archaic, overly-dramatic, colorful language in condemning the other’s dogmas and doctrines?
[/quote]
Nope, it’s giving back what was delivered. Don’t take away my fun in the name of maturity or being grown up. My comments are not directed at all protestants or anybody else for that matter; my comments are for tirib. I tried to argue with tirib in good faith, I tried to be a grown up talking about grown up issues, only to be insulted, condemned and mocked. So I decided to throw out reason, logic, and maturity and to give as was given. To condemn as was condemned. Why should he have all the fun? I wanna have fun too. If you did read carefully though I actually do not condemn, nor do I speak for the Church at all; however I am still speaking the truth. TULIP is bullshit, Calvin was a heretic and a murderer and God did not create man to condemn him. But I am speaking for myself. I am not trying to take the high road, I am most happily taking the low road. This man has insulted me and that which is dear to me way to many times for me to tolerate it any longer. Could I ignore it, yeah sure, but there is nothing else interesting going on here in PWI at the moment, so why not enjoy the low road for a bit?
You’d think, but tirib is as unfamiliar with mutual respect as the body guard was. I have no interest in respecting somebody who has no respect or humility. Knowing and respecting disagreements does not work with him. He has proven it, time and time and time again…Don’t believe me? Go ahead and try to have a reasoned discussion with him and see the very bizarre accusations and twists and turns the conversation will take. You will be mocked, insulted and condemned just like everybody else. Go ahead, I dare ya…
Thanks, I’ll save my reasoned discussions with reasoned people…
Besides, I’ve seen you get snarky before too…
Tirib, statements like this demonstrate starkly and unequivocally that you have NO CLUE what the Catholic church actually teaches. Your motivations show through like a bloody heart on your sleeve. [/quote]I was wondering who would bite. What if I quoted Pat saying essentially this very thing? What if I posted 20 or 30 of his attacks on me personally as a man. My honesty, integrity, sincerity, intelligence, sanity etc. and then challenged you to show where I have ever done the same to him or anybody else as a person even once?
Motives don’t matter to you and neither does arrogant outright personally abusive language as long as somebody calling himself a Catholic does it to me. Then you jump on me for some biting sarcasm not even directed at a person here, but at a belief system I believe with all my heart to be the most singularly evil entity ever to curse the face this earth. What am I to think? Is there no glaring double standard in this?
I have defended Chris when I thought he was being unfairly accused. I refused to join in condemning him when hateful unbelievers showed up with posts of his that I could have mercilessly pounded him with. I have taken on other non Catholics when I thought they were wrong. Pat’s theology AND attitude are a disgrace to even Catholicism and some of you guys absolutely know that, but not a peep because, forget the reputation of Christ, the CHURCH will look bad if we say anything to one of our own. That’s what’s really important isn’t it?
Nevertheless, tell me what you think my motives are. I’m asking with all possible sincerity and if you say what I think you’re going to say I’ll agree.
[quote]Sloth wrote:<<< the most archaic, overly-dramatic, colorful language in condemning the other’s dogmas and doctrines? >>>[/quote]Not even you Sloth. One of my top 5 favorite people ever on this site. (that won’t change btw) There is no contest. I’m the only one fitting your description. Why not include juvenile, profane, personally abusive language in your criticism? Because that would indite Pat, a fellow Catholic despite being an ultra liberal one at that.
You people value loyalty to your church and each other over even principle. I will not tolerate unfounded attacks on folks here I’ve grown to care about no matter who they are. Protestant, Catholic or atheist. If I were beating up on western liberalism using the exact same tactics and language, which I’ve done a thousand times, you’d be cheering me on.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I was wondering who would bite.
[/quote]
Oh please. You said something patently false about the Catholic church. Even you appear to understand this.
As far as attacking your statements over Pat’s? That’s a no-brainer. I may disagree at times with things Pat says, but he’s not the one walking around calling my entire system of beliefs, my mother, vile epithets like satanic, whore, evil, among all sorts of other shit. You’ll have to forgive me if I lose my tolerance after a certain point.
[quote]Sloth wrote:<<< the most archaic, overly-dramatic, colorful language in condemning the other’s dogmas and doctrines? >>>[/quote]Not even you Sloth. One of my top 5 favorite people ever on this site. (that won’t change btw) There is no contest. I’m the only one fitting your description. Why not include juvenile, profane, personally abusive language in your criticism? Because that would indite Pat, a fellow Catholic despite being an ultra liberal one at that.
You people value loyalty to your church and each other over even principle. I will not tolerate unfounded attacks on folks here I’ve grown to care about no matter who they are. Protestant, Catholic or atheist. If I were beating up on western liberalism using the exact same tactics and language, which I’ve done a thousand times, you’d be cheering me on.
[/quote]
You people value loyalty to your church and each other over even principle.
[/quote]
Nope, meant everyone that it applied to. Which included more than just you. But yes, includes you. I don’t care who started what, be it you or the Catholics, it’s disgusting. You guys managed to turn Christendom into a bad WWE script. I’m flat out embarrassed that a potential inquirer might open this thread and quickly lose interest. This thing stopped being a debate, a conversation, long ago. Everyone should’ve shook off the dust from thir sandals and moved on. Instead we have this crude display. Congrats to you all.
You people value loyalty to your church and each other over even principle.
[/quote]
Nope, meant everyone that it applied to. Which included more than just you. But yes, includes you. I don’t care who started what, be it you or the Catholics, it’s disgusting. You guys managed to turn Christendom into a bad WWE script. I’m flat out embarrassed that a potential inquirer might open this thread and quickly lose interest. This thing stopped being a debate, a conversation, long ago. Everyone should’ve shook off the dust from thir sandals and moved on. Instead we have this crude display. Congrats to you all. [/quote]
