[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
<<>>
[/quote]
Yeah, except that’s not what he says. That’s what a false prophet says he says, but not actually what he really says.
I’ll take Aquinas over Calvin any day… Aquinas never had anyone killed for disagreeing.
Further, there is not a humble bone in your body. You are way arrogant. You judge and condemn as if you are God himself, then you say you don’t. Quit lying to us. It’s transparent.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Romans 9:22-23 (Catholic NAB) “22-What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction? 23-This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory,” [quote]pat wrote:<<< I am starting to question your actual sanity. If this is truly your take, you know nothing about scripture. >>>[/quote]What is you sane take on the above?
[/quote]
Well if you actually knew anything about Romans, the entire purpose of the first half was justification to the Jews to bring the Good News to the gentiles…Not to take things out of context to make them say the things you want them to say. For in Romans 9:25 he says in crescendo: “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” (Romans 9:25 ESV)
Romans 5:12 reads:
“Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.” ALL MEN…Not half, not some, but ALL MEN. I would of course take this to mean women too, but I don’t know how you’d interprate that.
There is a lot more to Romans than Chap 9, which is the only chapter you’ve apparently read. If you’d spend more time with the message rather than cherry picking scripture for your own personal justification, you’d see it is beautiful and all inclusive indeed.
[quote]pat wrote:<<< ALL MEN… >>>[/quote]That means all KINDS of men there Patty you ol blarney boy you. Jews, Greeks and everybody else. NOT all men numerically speaking. Come on bub, you’re embarrassing your homeys with this. They’ll go read this passage now and wince when they see what I’m talkin about and you’ll look like a ninny again. It doesn’t have to be this way Pat.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
they’re chained to previous authoritative declarations. Calvin didn’t suffer from that.[/quote]
Neither did Lucifer. What a surprise.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
the church DOES deal with predestination and election.[/quote]
Yes, it does. There is a big difference between double predestination and predestination as I have pointed out.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
they’re chained to previous authoritative declarations. Calvin didn’t suffer from that.[/quote]
Neither did Lucifer. What a surprise.[/quote]Lucifer didn’t suffer from being commissioned by God to restore the simplicity and purity of the ancient faith either though Chris =]
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Yes, it does. There is a big difference between double predestination and predestination as I have pointed out.[/quote]Bout time huh? Geeez. It was killin me a couple times keepin my mouth shut too. Pretty weak overall, but there is an occasional decent declaration here and there. Unless were talkin about Augustine. Then there’s plenty of solid God honoring exposition to be found in the writings of the bishop of Hippo.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:<<< ALL MEN… >>>[/quote]That means all KINDS of men there Patty you ol blarney boy you. Jews, Greeks and everybody else. NOT all men numerically speaking. Come on bub, you’re embarrassing your homeys with this. They’ll go read this passage now and wince when they see what I’m talkin about and you’ll look like a ninny again. It doesn’t have to be this way Pat.
[/quote]
You FOOL! You interpret one passage of Paul this passage of Paul to be something different than what it says, yet then you take another literally. Why? To suite your own foolish position for yourself. He said ALL MEN, not all kinds of men, not all kinds of sorts of men, ALL. It’s a simple word. He did not say 'All men, well not like numerically speaking and all, like kinda sorta all sorts of folk you know, but I meant he condemned a bunch and all"…
Can you see how you pervert the Scripture for your own selfish gain? ALL MEN, your wrong, scripture proves it, get over it.
Context is oh so very important Pat. Immediate and beyond. Let’s see who dares come to your defense on this huh? I’m gonna go ahead and predict a whole buncha silence. They ARE loyal aren’t they? “All” there means all without distinction. Not all without exception. I know it hurts, but you’ll be ok. Keep readin. This one ain’t even that tough. Maybe I’ll help ya out and find some catholic commentaries that say the same thing I’m sayin.
Shouldn’t be too difficult. I actually haven’t looked in this case, but not even those bishops of biblical butchery couldn’t get this wrong. (then again I have overestimated them before) Paul says all kinds of men everywhere of all kindreds and tongues, not just Jews, died in the trespass of Adam. Likewise, all kinds of men everywhere of all kindreds and tongues, not just Jews, will be made righteous and just in Christ. That’s one of the central points of the whole epistle Pat.
There’s a clue here for Chris on the universal Jewishness of the elect in Christ too actually.
Edited for bad typo
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
they’re chained to previous authoritative declarations. Calvin didn’t suffer from that.[/quote]
Neither did Lucifer. What a surprise.[/quote]Lucifer didn’t suffer from being commissioned by God to restore the simplicity and purity of the ancient faith either though Chris =][/quote]
Neither did Calvin, but they both thought they knew better than God. After all Lucifer didn’t want to obey God in serving man and Calvin didn’t want to obey God in obeying the truth put forth by the Church. I just want to know where a humanist lawyer gets his authority.
Why, I already showed you this article: http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9309fea1.asp
You want to tell the audience what kind of Bishop St. Augustine is?
I know it’s tough for you, but he’s a Catholic Bishop.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Context is oh so very important Pat.[/quote]
Yes, and who’s Canon of Scripture do you use? The Catholic Church’s from the Council of Rome (boogie man!) of 382, held by Catholic Bishops.
Dude, I already know, a certain Pope Pius XI already beat you to claiming the Baptized are Jewish, “Spiritually, we are Semites.”
2 Peter 2
"20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
22 Of them the proverbs are true: ?A dog returns to its vomit,?[g] and, ?A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.? "
Seems pretty, pretty, darn clear to me. I’m not putting effort into what clear enough. Continue on, without me.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
2 Peter 2
"20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
22 Of them the proverbs are true: ?A dog returns to its vomit,?[g] and, ?A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.? "
Seems pretty, pretty, darn clear to me. I’m not putting effort into what clear enough. Continue on, without me.[/quote]You forget the best of all =]
Hebrews 6:4-8 [quote]4-For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5-and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6-and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7-For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8-But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.[/quote] I,m not sure why you jumped over to the doctrine of perseverance from where we are though. Except maybe as a general refutation of the protestant faith?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Context is oh so very important Pat. Immediate and beyond. Let’s see who dares come to your defense on this huh? I’m gonna go ahead and predict a whole buncha silence. They ARE loyal aren’t they? “All” there means all without distinction. Not all without exception. I know it hurts, but you’ll be ok. Keep readin. This one ain’t even that tough. Maybe I’ll help ya out and find some catholic commentaries that say the same thing I’m sayin. Shouldn’t be too difficult. I actually haven’t looked in this case, but not even those bishops of biblical butchery could get this wrong. (then again I have overestimated them before) Paul says all kinds of men everywhere of all kindreds and tongues, not just Jews, died in the trespass of Adam. Likewise, all kinds of men everywhere of all kindreds and tongues, not just Jews, will be made righteous and just in Christ. That’s one of the central points of the whole epistle Pat.
There’s a clue here for Chris on the universal Jewishness of the elect in Christ too actually. [/quote]
All that build up and no bomb shell?
You have some balls talking context to me since it is typically something you avoid. St. Paul said ALL MEN, period. He did not elaborate or drill down on it, he plainly said Christ died for ALL MEN. No amount of tortured logic is going to make ‘election’ true. Election can only been view out of context, for the word is used. Though no where does it say God creates some men automatically damned.
You’re logic is agonizingly bad.
So you don’t believe St. Paul (we should address him formally after all), how about St. Peter?
"So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, Â but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all)” (Acts 10:34-36 ESV)
I am dying to see where your going to say, "No he meant sort of ‘anyone’ and ‘all’ really means ‘some’.
Nobody need to defend me, the Scriptures are sufficient to prove election unequivocally false.
I am not sure why everyone is getting so defensive. This is a Catholic Q&A and if someone wants to come in here attack us then we can moderate there comments.
Furthermore, the Catholic Church is historically established by Jesus Christ and received its authority from Jesus who received it from the Father, gave it to the Apostles in which the apostles handed down to their successors the Bishops of the Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church is the sole Church to establish the Canon of Scriptures as it is the only Church and which is guided inerrant by the Holy Ghost. The Catholic Bishops held the Council of Rome 382, in which it established the Canon, in the Council of Hippo of 393 the Catholic Bishops ratified the Decision by the Council in Rome and the Council of Carthage of 397 ratified it, as well. Various Synods were brought together to review and finally to come to agreement on the establishing and ratifying of the Canon. The Synods were held by Bishops of the Catholic Church.
After 1200 years at the Council of Trent in 1545 the Catholic Church ratified the Canon of Scripture once again. A hundred years later the Protestants finally stopped pulling out books they didn’t like and put back some that they thought were “epistles of straw” back and finally came to a illegitimate canon of scripture that was incomplete by seven books and missing pieces of two.
By no authority does any Protestant have power of interpretation over the Bible, by no authority do they share the gospel, and by no authority do they minister to the children of God. Although they hold no authority and they protest against the Church - though they no longer pose physical threat against the Catholic Church the name holds true - they do have their baptism and the grace that comes through baptism. They as well have the grace of that which comes through the sacrament of marriage. If a protestant receives graces from these two sacraments, has faith, obey’s the will of God, and dies in a state of grace because of his ignorance I solemnly have hope for his salvation.
However, since private revelation has no hold. No protestant can have private revelation in which to reform the Church (the Saint Francis de Sales can be said to be the true reformer of the Church if anyone reformed the Church at all, however Francis did not reform, he obeyed the Pope and the Church changed discipline and individuals repented of their sins). The Church is the truth and the only thing that can be reformed is the individuals and not the teachings of the Church. To reform the individuals is a misnomer though as they are not reforming but repenting. Calvin’s possible private revelation (likely from Lucifer himself) has no hold on the Church as a just judge respects no person. His fruits were miserable as he disobeyed his Church and fled from his country.
One may point out that the Church has no authority, but alas it does because if one is to dictate just one other’s opinion it has authority. However, the Church’s authority is more than ordinary as it has spanned over 2000 years since Jesus established it. It had the authority of the Roman Empire and has had the authority for the largest mass of people for most of its history at times converting whole nation states. No other Church has held such authority. The Church’s authority is not only earthly, but divine and that can be proven through Sacred Tradition, history, and Sacred Scripture which is part of Sacred Tradition. Jesus came down from Heaven to give the Apostles authority, which Peter was the Prince of and Peter being whom Jesus gave the Keys to that are from the type of Prime Minister we find in OT with King Solomon and Eph’phaim (sp?). If these Catholic texts are not of the Apostles then the entire Bible has to be thrown out because part of the requirement for the Canon of Scriptures is what the Apostles taught.
Therefore, if any Protestant comes front to discuss matters of the faith, one shall act like the first Christians. You shall ask them, “By what authority do you preach the things you preach?” If their authority does not reach back into the depths of history back to Jesus Christ himself, of course be charitable to him, but otherwise close the door as he neither teaches the truths of the Catholic Church and he has no authority from the Catholic Church and to listen to him is as to walk into snares.
[quote]pat wrote:<<< "So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, Ã? but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all)” (Acts 10:34-36 ESV)
I am dying to see where your going to say, "No he meant sort of ‘anyone’ and ‘all’ really means ‘some’. >>>[/quote]You are some piece of work Pat. You just made my point. God does not show partiality between this nation or that, Israel or not. He is absolutely NO respecter of persons. He doesn’t choose anybody based on them in any way.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:<<< "So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, Ã??Ã? but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all)” (Acts 10:34-36 ESV)
I am dying to see where your going to say, "No he meant sort of ‘anyone’ and ‘all’ really means ‘some’. >>>[/quote]You are some piece of work Pat. You just made my point. God does not show partiality between this nation or that, Israel or not. He is absolutely NO respecter of persons. He doesn’t choose anybody based on them in any way.
[/quote]
Yes, God is a just judge, therefore does not respect persons, he judges by cause…or by works/merit. 
Don’t try to throw some bullocks and think I won’t notice you didn’t use the other half of the statement I just used without using the other half.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:<<< "So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, Ã??Ã? but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all)” (Acts 10:34-36 ESV)
I am dying to see where your going to say, "No he meant sort of ‘anyone’ and ‘all’ really means ‘some’. >>>[/quote]You are some piece of work Pat. You just made my point. God does not show partiality between this nation or that, Israel or not. He is absolutely NO respecter of persons. He doesn’t choose anybody based on them in any way.
[/quote]
Okay, just for a second put the crack pipe down…You can pick it back up in a minute. Now your point is divine election, that God creates men to damn them. Now how in the hell does a statement like “anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.” support divine election? He said ‘anyone’ not the elect.
How do I make your idiotic point that God is no respecter of persons when a statement like “anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.” says the exact opposite?
Riddle me that, Jeremiah…
As a matter of fact the statement “anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.” supports everything I have always said and dispel any and every notion of TULIP. Calvin was a fraud who was closer to satan than God. He spoke instead of God, not for God.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:<<< "So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã? but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all)” (Acts 10:34-36 ESV)
I am dying to see where your going to say, "No he meant sort of ‘anyone’ and ‘all’ really means ‘some’. >>>[/quote]You are some piece of work Pat. You just made my point. God does not show partiality between this nation or that, Israel or not. He is absolutely NO respecter of persons. He doesn’t choose anybody based on them in any way.
[/quote]
Yes, God is a just judge, therefore does not respect persons, he judges by cause…or by works/merit. Don’t try to throw some bullocks and think I won’t notice you didn’t use the other half of the statement I just used without using the other half.[/quote]And nobody not redeemed in His blood cannot burn one calorie in His favor until they are. That’s the whole point. I don’t run from anybody or anything Chris. Don’t go off in the weeds on me here. I don’t have all the answers, no mere mortal does. I will bow every single time to the Word of God. In Abraham are ALL the nations of the earth blessed. That is a revolutionary component of the new and everlasting covenant even though it was sittin there right in front of everybody’s face for 2 millenia. Read Galatians as well as Romans AND Hebrews while we’re at it. Christ died for ALL nations, not every individual or they would all be saved which none but the rankest of unviversalist heretics will advance as biblical.
All that the Father gives Him and none EXCEPT them will come and of them He will lose none, but will raise them up on the last day. His sheep and only His sheep hear His voice. He told the pharisees that the reason they couldn’t believe was because they were not His sheep. Tell me about election Chris. Forget about reprobation for a minute and just tell me how YOU believe God elects His sheep. Please.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
That is a revolutionary component of the new and everlasting covenant even though it was sittin there right in front of everybody’s face for 2 millenia.[/quote]
Well to be fair the Catholic Church has put it in front of everyone’s faces. They either accept or they reject the authority which it comes from.
I have, multiple times. Are you asking me to make private interpretations just because I read? I do not fathom that my mind and intellect is strong enough to hold to the truth which God has given us, that is why we look to the Authority that God has put on this earth, which is the Catholic Church.
Actually pretty sure Jesus died for the whole world. The reason you believe he didn’t is because in order to receive that grace one must be freely baptized or baptized by the consent of one’s guardians. Your point of contention is free will. Man is born into a place of rejection of authority because of the fall so he has to say yes to God. And, for some reason you’re afraid that God cannot be omnipotent if he wishes to let man freely choose him. That is ridiculous of course because you are saying God is omnipotent and cannot do something.
[quote]All that the Father gives Him and none EXCEPT them will come and of them He will lose none, but will raise them up on the last day. His sheep and only His sheep hear His voice. He told the pharisees that the reason they couldn’t believe was because they were not His sheep. Tell me about election Chris. Forget about reprobation for a minute and just tell me how YOU believe God elects His sheep. Please.
[/quote]
You’re asking here about something that I have only scratched the surface of, that has gone between two camps following one man in the area of election and predestination. Neither is heretical as we can tell yet, however I am not equipped to discuss election and predestination.
However, what I do know is that I side towards intentful predestination and passive reprobation. Which you can find taught further here: ST I:23:3. This passive reprobation is done by passing over those who will not come to the Lord, those who do so because of their inherent sin.
It is like a father and two sons. The father has many cars, so many cars that the sons could never crash enough and not still have a car. The father knows that one son will want to go somewhere, so on his 16th birthday gives the kid the keys to the car. The other son he knows will just sit on the coach and watch TV for the rest of his life. So the father never even bothers giving his son the keys to a car. The son on the couch can ask for the keys to a car to go somewhere, but the father never forbids the son from driving. The father knows even if he did give his son keys he would just throw the keys into the bushes or just sit there with them.
The debate is how the father gives the sons the keys, which I do not know particular the different arguments and don’t feel comfortable to divulge into what they propose.
What I do know is that the father does not give the keys to one son and keep the keys away from the other son. Though he doesn’t give the keys to the one son that doesn’t mean the son can’t knock on the father’s door and the father will answer. As the Lord told us in the parables.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:<<< "So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, Ã???Ã???Ã???Ã??Ã? but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all)” (Acts 10:34-36 ESV)
I am dying to see where your going to say, "No he meant sort of ‘anyone’ and ‘all’ really means ‘some’. >>>[/quote]You are some piece of work Pat. You just made my point. God does not show partiality between this nation or that, Israel or not. He is absolutely NO respecter of persons. He doesn’t choose anybody based on them in any way.
[/quote]
Yes, God is a just judge, therefore does not respect persons, he judges by cause…or by works/merit. Don’t try to throw some bullocks and think I won’t notice you didn’t use the other half of the statement I just used without using the other half.[/quote]And nobody not redeemed in His blood cannot burn one calorie in His favor until they are. That’s the whole point. I don’t run from anybody or anything Chris. Don’t go off in the weeds on me here. I don’t have all the answers, no mere mortal does. I will bow every single time to the Word of God. In Abraham are ALL the nations of the earth blessed. That is a revolutionary component of the new and everlasting covenant even though it was sittin there right in front of everybody’s face for 2 millenia. Read Galatians as well as Romans AND Hebrews while we’re at it. Christ died for ALL nations, not every individual or they would all be saved which none but the rankest of unviversalist heretics will advance as biblical.
All that the Father gives Him and none EXCEPT them will come and of them He will lose none, but will raise them up on the last day. His sheep and only His sheep hear His voice. He told the pharisees that the reason they couldn’t believe was because they were not His sheep. Tell me about election Chris. Forget about reprobation for a minute and just tell me how YOU believe God elects His sheep. Please.
[/quote]
We don’t believe in the heresy of election, it’s a lie.
He came as a witness, to bear witness about the light, that all might believe through him. He was not the light, but came to bear witness about the light.
The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.
(John 1:7-9 ESV)
‘For the Scripture says, â??Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.’
(Romans 10:11 ESV)
‘When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.’
(1 Corinthians 15:28 ESV)
God is not an exclusive club, he is a free gift for all to accept or reject, to love or hate. Election is an insult to Christ’s sacrifice, for God so loved the WORLD, he gave his only begotten Son.