Catholic Q & A

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]blacksheep wrote:
Stated,

“So, you’re problem is not intercession, but that I am asking a “dead” person to do it?”

The Word of God states that we are not to commit the forbidden pagan practice of necromancy, which is an abomination to God and forbidden by Him (Deut. 18:9-11). Those among God’s people in the O.T. who practiced this were put to death (Lev. 20:27). Anyone who calls up the dead or consults with the world of spirits is actually in communication with deceiving spirits (demons). How foolish to consult the dead on behalf of the living (Isa. 8:19). Like wise, the N.T. declares that those who practice such things will not enter the kingdom of God such as, “Idolatry” (Gk. eidololatria), i.e., the worship (honor) of spirits, persons, or graven images, also trust in any person, institution, or thing as having equal or greater authority than God and His Word (Gal. 5:19-21).

“Necromancy is a special mode of divination by the evocation of the dead…Along with other forms of divination and magic, necromancy is found in every nation of antiquity, and is a practice common to paganism at all times…In the Bible necromancy is mentioned chiefly in order to forbid it or to reprove those who have recourse to it. The Hebrew term 'Ã?´bÃ?´th (sing., 'Ã?´bh) denotes primarily the spirits of the dead, or ‘pythons’, as the Vulgate calls them (Deuteronomy 18:11; Isaiah 19:3)…The Mosaic Law forbids necromancy (Leviticus 19:31; 20:6), declares that to seek the truth from the dead is abhorred by God (Deuteronomy 18:11, 12), and even makes it punishable by death (Leviticus 20:27; cf. 1 Samuel 28:9)…In the first centuries of the Christian era the practice of necromancy was common among pagans, as the Fathers frequently testify (see, e.g., Tertullian, ‘Apol.’, xxiii, P.L., I, 470; ‘De anima’, LVI, LVII, in P.L., II, 790 sqq.; Lactantius, ‘DivinÃ?¦ institutiones’, IV, xxvii, in P.L., VI, 531). It was associated with other magical arts and other forms of demoniacal practices, and Christians were warned against such observances ‘in which the demons represent themselves as the souls of the dead’ (Tertullian, De anima, LVII, in P.L., II, 793)…The Church does not deny that, with a special permission of God, the souls of the departed may appear to the living, and even manifest things unknown to the latter. But, understood as the art or science of evoking the dead, necromancy is held by theologians to be due to the agency of evil spirits, for the means taken are inadequate to produce the expected results. In pretended evocations of the dead, there may be many things explainable naturally or due to fraud; how much is real, and how much must be attributed to imagination and deception, cannot be determined, but real facts of necromancy, with the use of incantations and magical rites, are looked upon by theologians, after St. Thomas, II-II, Q. xcv, aa. iii, iv, as special modes of divination, due to demoniacal intervention, and divination itself is a form of superstition.”

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10735a.htm[/quote]

Cool so we are in agreement. Nobody is advocating prayer to the dead. Dead people can’t pray, they can’t do anything.

“‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”~ Mt 22:32

Again, there is no requirement here. You can go strait to the Man for everything, every time.

62

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:

[quote]pat wrote: Give them a try, and you will see results. Often, they can argue your case better than you can.
[/quote]

I’m not sure I understand your choice of words in ‘arguing’ a case before God. Seems to be the last place for an arguement.[/quote]

I don’t think the Saints are the last to “argue” or bicker with God.

Argue in the sense of “state your case” or “argue your case.”[/quote]

Ths Saints bicker with God? That’s just wrong to me. (Notice I didn’t say that wrong for you or anyone else!) I never could really accept the whole intermediary thing, aside from Christ. The Saints are interesting, to an extent. But the Saints, and organized religions, just seem like middlemen. Perhaps they are helpful on occasion, like a crutch, but wouldn’t you want your prayer life to be just between you and your Creator most of the time?
[/quote]

Come on…Do act like you don’t know what I meant. Let’s go with ‘intercede’. We are strengthened by prayer and by being prayed for. Those hangin’ with the Man, are closer to him and know him better. Asking for prayers are not harmful.
You don’t pray to saints, you ask for prayers from saints. You pray to God, alone.

63

Sorry, I actually don’t understand what Catholics are talking about…often.
Using words like ‘argue’ and ‘bicker’ in the context of prayer just had me puzzled (again!).

64

SIAP, I’m late to the party.

One, the Catholic Church is responsible for the canonization of the Christian Bible and putting chapter and verse references in the old testament. The Catholic Church would not adopt something contradicting what they practice. Because the Catholic Church has always believe in apostolic tradition and the intercession of Saints, the Bible cannot be used to contradict it. A literal readings of poor transaltions account for many of the misinterpretations.

[Just an aside, Martin Luther actually did away with many books of the new testament, including the books of James, the books of Peter, and Revelations.]

Two, Catholics ask Saints to intercede on their behalf for four main reasons. First, Jesus instructed that whenever two people are gathered God the Father listens. Thus, Jesus told his followers that being religious was about community. Second, the Saints are in full communion with God. Not only did the Saints’ lives show their faith and connection to God, the Church believes that they have crossed completely over to Heaven. Third, Catholics believe in the resurrection of the body. It would have been easy for Jesus’s followers to claim he never died, but it was critical to Jesus’s message that he conquer death and was resurrected. Because of this, the Saints are still able to hear the pleas of the people on earth. Finally, Jesus gave Simon Peter the keys to the Kingdom. Whatever he bound on earth, was bound in Heaven (see Matthew 16). Thus, while Saints cannot answer prays (what was referred to above as summoning the dead), the Saints can be a vessel for God’s power and will, just as they were on earth.

Three, as to why Catholics believe in apostolic tradition, the communion of Saints, and tradition, comes directly from Matthew 16 referenced above. Jesus built His Church upon Simon Peter (the rock) and gave Simon Peter the ability to exercise Jesus’s will.

Four, as for why Catholics hold Mother Mary in such high esteem, there are five reasons. First, the ten commandments tell us to honor our mother and father. Obviously, we honor Jesus’s Father. We should also honor Jesus’s mother. Second, when Elizabeth comes into contact with Mary, Elizabeth proclaims Holy Mary Mother of God, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the Fruit of your womb. Third, the Book of Revelations reveals the assumption of Mary. Jesus loved her so much he would not let decay or death touch her body. Fourth, as mentioned below, Jesus granted Mary’s wishes even though it appeard contrary to his will. Fifth, at Jesus’s death, when all the men had left, Mary remained.

Five, as for praying to Mary and the Rosary, the Bible answers this. As referenced above, Elizabeth proclaimed Mary’s stature. Additionally, at the Marriage at Cana, Mary tells Jesus they have no more wine. Jesus proclaims that Mary should not bother Him as His time has not come. Yet, Jesus still performs the miracle of turning water into wine.

This is not only the first miracle of Jesus but it appears to go against Jesus’s will. Jesus wishes not to be bothered but because his mother asks he peforms the miracle. Obviously, Jesus loved his mother very much to answer Mary’s request.

All of this is seen in the Hail Mary which goes, “Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the Fruit of your womb, Jesus. [all based on scripture] Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.” Catholics are recognizing the special place of Mary and asking her to intercede on our behalf because of her connection with Jesus.

I hope all of that made sense.

[edited]

65

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
Sorry, I actually don’t understand what Catholics are talking about…often.
Using words like ‘argue’ and ‘bicker’ in the context of prayer just had me puzzled (again!).
[/quote]

Catholics use terms like argue and bicker to signify the struggle men have to conform their will to the will of the Lord. This is seen in the Bible as well. Jacob, later Israel, wrestled with God all night. Eventually, God touched Jacob’s hip and won. This shows that it is okay to struggle with God and that God could conform us at anytime but grants us free will. Another example is Jonah. When God asks Jonah to go to Nineveh, Jonah flees. Eventually, Jonah is swallowed by a large fish, and he realizes he must go to Nineveh. When God does not destroy Nineveh as promised and when God destroys the plant giving Jonah shelter, Jonah becomes angry with God. Finally, Jesus pleds with God to save him asking if there is any other way. Jesus succumbs to God’s will and says but let Your [God’s] will be done.

66

[quote]McG78 wrote:
SIAP, I’m late to the party.

One, the Catholic Church is responsible for the canonization of the Christian Bible and putting chapter and verse references in the old testament. The Catholic Church would not adopt something contradicting what they practice. Because the Catholic Church has always believe in apostolic tradition and the intercession of Saints, the Bible cannot be used to contradict it. A literal readings of poor transaltions account for many of the misinterpretations.

[Just an aside, Martin Luther actually did away with many books of the new testament, including the books of James, the books of Peter, and Revelations.]

Two, Catholics ask Saints to intercede on their behalf for four main reasons. First, Jesus instructed that whenever two people are gathered God the Father listens. Thus, Jesus told his followers that being religious was about community. Second, the Saints are in full communion with God. Not only did the Saints’ lives show their faith and connection to God, the Church believes that they have crossed completely over to Heaven.

Third, Catholics believe in the resurrection of the body. It would have been easy for Jesus’s followers to claim he never died, but it was critical to Jesus’s message that he conquer death and was resurrected. Because of this, the Saints are still able to hear the pleas of the people on earth. Finally, Jesus gave Simon Peter the keys to the Kingdom. Whatever he bound on earth, was bound in Heaven (see Matthew 16). Thus, while Saints cannot answer prays (what was referred to above as summoning the dead), the Saints can be a vessel for God’s power and will, just as they were on earth.

Three, as to why Catholics believe in apostolic tradition, the communion of Saints, and tradition, comes directly from Matthew 16 referenced above. Jesus built His Church upon Simon Peter (the rock) and gave Simon Peter the ability to exercise Jesus’s will.

Four, as for why Catholics hold Mother Mary in such high esteem, there are three reasons. First, the ten commandments tell us to honor our mother and father. Obviously, we honor Jesus’s Father. We should also honor Jesus’s mother. Second, when Elizabeth comes into contact with Mary, Elizabeth proclaims Holy Mary Mother of God, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the Fruit of your womb. Third, the Book of Revelations reveals the assumption of Mary. Jesus loved her so much he would not let decay or death touch her body. Fourth, as mentioned below, Jesus granted Mary’s wishes even though it appeard contrary to his will. Fifth, at Jesus’s death, when all the men had left, Mary remained.

Five, as for praying to Mary and the Rosary, the Bible answers this. As referenced above, Elizabeth proclaimed Mary’s stature. Additionally, at the Marriage at Cana, Mary tells Jesus they have no more wine. Jesus proclaims that Mary should not bother Him as His time has not come. Yet, Jesus still performs the miracle of turning water into wine.

This is not only the first miracle of Jesus but it appears to go against Jesus’s will. Jesus wishes not to be bothered but because his mother asks he peforms the miracle. Obviously, Jesus loved his mother very much to answer Mary’s request.

All of this is seen in the Hail Mary which goes, “Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the Fruit of your womb, Jesus. [all based on scripture] Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.” Catholics are recognizing the special place of Mary and asking her to intercede on our behalf because of her connection with Jesus.

I hope all of that made sense.[/quote]

I really am not all that religious, but being raised Catholic, and being in Catholic school for the better part of 15 years, I would say this hits the nail on the head as to why Catholics pray to Mary. I know that whenever I really feel bad, I go for walks to say the rosary at the Grotto my college has. It almost completely takes away the weight of whatever is on my mind somehow. I still think about whatever it is, but it doesnt bother me so much. Its really a good thing. I would recommend it to anyone to find a place where they feel both relaxed and in the presence of God to try to pray the rosary when they have heavy stuff on their mind.

67

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:

[quote]pat wrote: Give them a try, and you will see results. Often, they can argue your case better than you can.
[/quote]

I’m not sure I understand your choice of words in ‘arguing’ a case before God. Seems to be the last place for an arguement.[/quote]

I don’t think the Saints are the ones to “argue” or bicker with God.

Argue in the sense of “state your case” or “argue your case.”[/quote]

Ths Saints bicker with God? That’s just wrong to me. (Notice I didn’t say that wrong for you or anyone else!) I never could really accept the whole intermediary thing, aside from Christ. The Saints are interesting, to an extent. But the Saints, and organized religions, just seem like middlemen. Perhaps they are helpful on occasion, like a crutch, but wouldn’t you want your prayer life to be just between you and your Creator most of the time?
[/quote]

No, they don’t bicker with God. My sentence was funny (I was on a phone trying to get some Taco Bell), but the Saints are the last ones to “argue” (as you’re thinking) or bicker. Yeah, and who ever said there wasn’t a middleman? Jesus built his Church on Peter, or Rock. Who was the first Catholic Pope. So, who are you to argue with a “middleman” if Jesus put it there.

68

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
If B is the one mediator between A and man, and XYZ speaks of man in different worlds. If X can pray to B directly, and Z can pray to B directly, why can’t X ask Z to pray to B for X, and maybe even Y.[/quote]

Where is this chart located in the Bible? Okay, I’m being funny but again there is nothing of this in the Bible just the quote to Timothy by Paul. [/quote]

It doesn’t say anything in the Bible about who wrote The Gospel According to Mark or the proper way to get married.[/quote]

Nor does it tell you how to start your car on a cold winter morning - So what?
[/quote]

Exactly that, some things just aren’t in the Bible, even the Bible says so.

John 21:25, “there are also many other things which Jesus did, were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.”

To think that all the instructions of Jesus are in Bible is limiting Jesus is my point.[/quote]

I’m going to have to call logical fallacy on that one my friend. You are claiming that BECAUSE certain things are not in the Bible then it’s okay to add things. Also, when there is clear instruction as in the case of there being only ONE mediator between God and man (Jesus) there is certainly no good reason to add anything to that.[/quote]

Um…no. You’re coming from the idea that the Bible was written and then the other stuff came about. When in fact it’s the other way around, we had the teachings and some of them went into the Bible and we still have the other stuff.[/quote]

I’m not saying that it’s not okay to follow traditions that you may have in your church. I’m simply saying that you can’t rationalize them with the Bible. Especially in the case of having one mediator between God and man. And asking dead people to intercede with prayer? Um…Okay, but we both know that it’s not Biblical.[/quote]

But, I’m not asking dead people to intercede with prayer, I’m asking the living saints in Heaven, that is the communion of Saints. Interesting because I don’t know anything you just said, The Revelation of Saint John says something about these “dead” living saints in Heaven, “when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with gold bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”

Sounds like the “dead” living people in Heaven are offering up our prayers to the Lamb.[/quote]

I’m familiar with that scripture and no where does it say or even imply that those dead people can, or should intercede in human affairs on earth. Again, the Bible clearly states that there is only one mediator between God and man and that is Jesus Christ.[/quote]

Intercession =/= intercede. The “dead” people are obviously alive in Heaven. And just because someone is “dead” doesn’t disconnect them with God. They are not intervening on our behalf in human affairs, they are praying on our behalf to God, in Heaven.

Yes, and you haven’t show that mediator and intercessor is the same thing.

69

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
Sorry, I actually don’t understand what Catholics are talking about…often.
Using words like ‘argue’ and ‘bicker’ in the context of prayer just had me puzzled (again!).
[/quote]

So, I say that Saints are the last one’s to argue or bicker with God, and then you say I say that they argue and bicker with God. Interesting, so you just turn my words around on purpose or did you misread what I said?

70

Brother Chris:

Let’s call it a “bridge” for clarity purposes. There is only one bridge between God and man and that is Jesus Christ. Why would you or anyone try to communicate with those who have passed on instead of simply praying through Christ? Is this just church dogma - Like long ago when the Catholics would not eat meat on Friday?

71

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:

Let’s call it a “bridge” for clarity purposes. There is only one bridge between God and man and that is Jesus Christ. Why would you or anyone try to communicate with those who have passed on instead of simply praying through Christ? Is this just church dogma - Like long ago when the Catholics would not eat meat on Friday? [/quote]

As stated above, Catholics ask Saints to intercede on their behalf for four main reasons. First, Jesus instructed that whenever two people are gathered God the Father listens. Thus, Jesus told his followers that being religious was about community. Yes you can pray directly to God, but Jesus instructed as to not be an island. Second, the Saints are in full communion with God. Not only did the Saints’ lives show their faith and connection to God, the Church believes that they have crossed completely over to Heaven. Third, Catholics believe in the resurrection of the body. It would have been easy for Jesus’s followers to claim he never died, but it was critical to Jesus’s message that he conquer death and was resurrected. Because of this, the Saints are still able to hear the pleas of the people on earth as the Saints are still “living.” Finally, Jesus gave Simon Peter the keys to the Kingdom. Whatever he bound on earth, was bound in Heaven (see Matthew 16). Thus, while Saints cannot answer prays (what was referred to above as summoning the dead), the Saints can be a vessel for God’s power and will, just as they were on earth. Just as Jesus gave the disciples the power of God to cast out demons and cure the sick. As Catholics, our prayers should incorporate all the “living” (in the sense of living in communion with God).

Your argument is somewhat fallacious in that it does not recognize the humanity of Jesus. Jesus was 100% human and 100% divine. Yes, Jesus conquered death and rose from the dead. But the Bible tells us that all believers will rise from the dead and enter Heaven. If we can pray to Jesus, who was 100% human, why can’t we ask other humans who have entered the kingdom of God to pray with us. In other words, if we can reach Jesus, we can reach anyone else in Heaven.

Also, I think what you are referring to in your statement “like long ago when the Catholics would not eat meat on Friday” is the practice of most “North American” Catholics not eating non-fish meat on Fridays of Lent and on Ash Wednesday. [Technically, Ash Wednesday and Good Friday are days of fasting.] North American Catholics still observe this practice. Catholics in other countries/regions observe similar sacrifices. In some areas, Catholics don’t eat fish on the Fridays of lent. The point of all this is to recognize the sacrifice of Jesus through a small sacrifice in your own life. Thus, the food sacrifice usually involves a large staple in the culture’s diet.

72

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
Sorry, I actually don’t understand what Catholics are talking about…often.
Using words like ‘argue’ and ‘bicker’ in the context of prayer just had me puzzled (again!).
[/quote]

The word does have more than one meaning…

ar·gueâ?? â??/Ë?É?rgyu/ Show Spelled [ahr-gyoo] Show IPA verb,-gued, -gu·ing.
â??verb (used without object)
1.to present reasons for or against a thing: He argued in favor of capital punishment.
2.to contend in oral disagreement; dispute: The Senator argued with the President about the new tax bill.
â??verb (used with object)
3.to state the reasons for or against: The lawyers argued the case.
4.to maintain in reasoning: to argue that the news report must be wrong.
5.to persuade, drive, etc., by reasoning: to argue someone out of a plan.
6.to show; prove; imply; indicate: His clothes argue poverty.

Certainly not meaning that you could argue with God in terms of a debate as you are taking it. That implies you could win which would further imply you know something he doesn’t.

73

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:

Let’s call it a “bridge” for clarity purposes. There is only one bridge between God and man and that is Jesus Christ. Why would you or anyone try to communicate with those who have passed on instead of simply praying through Christ? Is this just church dogma - Like long ago when the Catholics would not eat meat on Friday? [/quote]

No, it’s Biblical. And, there was never dogma that Catholics weren’t allowed or would not eat meat on Friday.

74

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:

Let’s call it a “bridge” for clarity purposes. There is only one bridge between God and man and that is Jesus Christ. Why would you or anyone try to communicate with those who have passed on instead of simply praying through Christ? Is this just church dogma - Like long ago when the Catholics would not eat meat on Friday? [/quote]

Okay, there is one Bridge to the Father. Still not seeing a problem.

75

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:

Let’s call it a “bridge” for clarity purposes. There is only one bridge between God and man and that is Jesus Christ. Why would you or anyone try to communicate with those who have passed on instead of simply praying through Christ? Is this just church dogma - Like long ago when the Catholics would not eat meat on Friday? [/quote]

No, it’s Biblical. And, there was never dogma that Catholics weren’t allowed or would not eat meat on Friday.[/quote]

Where does it say in the Bible that one cannot eat meat on Firday? And if it’s there why does the Catholic church now sanction meat eating on friday?

76

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:

Let’s call it a “bridge” for clarity purposes. There is only one bridge between God and man and that is Jesus Christ. Why would you or anyone try to communicate with those who have passed on instead of simply praying through Christ? Is this just church dogma - Like long ago when the Catholics would not eat meat on Friday? [/quote]

Okay, there is one Bridge to the Father. Still not seeing a problem.[/quote]

Did you forget a line between other men, the Pope and the Saints?

77

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:

Let’s call it a “bridge” for clarity purposes. There is only one bridge between God and man and that is Jesus Christ. Why would you or anyone try to communicate with those who have passed on instead of simply praying through Christ? Is this just church dogma - Like long ago when the Catholics would not eat meat on Friday? [/quote]

Okay, there is one Bridge to the Father. Still not seeing a problem.[/quote]

Then why ask those who have past on to interced when the Bible says there is ONE “bridge” between God and man?

78

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:

Let’s call it a “bridge” for clarity purposes. There is only one bridge between God and man and that is Jesus Christ. Why would you or anyone try to communicate with those who have passed on instead of simply praying through Christ? Is this just church dogma - Like long ago when the Catholics would not eat meat on Friday? [/quote]

No, it’s Biblical. And, there was never dogma that Catholics weren’t allowed or would not eat meat on Friday.[/quote]

Where does it say in the Bible that one cannot eat meat on Firday? And if it’s there why does the Catholic church now sanction meat eating on friday?
[/quote]

Nice strawman. He was saying that apostolic tradition and the communion of Saints is Biblical. And that there was never a dogma that Catholics couldn’t eat meat on Fridays. If you read my post, this is only a North American custom observed during Lent. Catholics are called to make small sacrifices during Lent to help them appreciate the sacrifices of Jesus. One of these sacrifices is not eating meat. If you are a vegeterian, the Church asks you to adopt some other sacrifice.

79

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:

Let’s call it a “bridge” for clarity purposes. There is only one bridge between God and man and that is Jesus Christ. Why would you or anyone try to communicate with those who have passed on instead of simply praying through Christ? Is this just church dogma - Like long ago when the Catholics would not eat meat on Friday? [/quote]

Okay, there is one Bridge to the Father. Still not seeing a problem.[/quote]

Then why ask those who have past on to interced when the Bible says there is ONE “bridge” between God and man?
[/quote]

There is one bridge. The Catholic Church is that bridge. The Catholic Church and the Holy that make up it are viewed as vessels of Jesus Christ. In other words, we are all part of the Body of Christ (this is mentioned throughout the new testament). A means for the Lord to manifest himself here on earth. As I’ve stated above, this is all based on Jesus’s interactions with Peter. Please Read Matthew Chapter 16.

While a Calvinist believe that we are a pile of dung made beatiful by the snow, Jesus. Catholics and most Protestants accept that there is a flicker of Jesus in everyone. We must nuture that and let Jesus work through us. Read the books of James and the books of Peter. They mention this throughout.

Please read my posts. And if you have, please stop trying to have an argument by selecting bits and pieces of what others say.

80

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:

Let’s call it a “bridge” for clarity purposes. There is only one bridge between God and man and that is Jesus Christ. Why would you or anyone try to communicate with those who have passed on instead of simply praying through Christ? Is this just church dogma - Like long ago when the Catholics would not eat meat on Friday? [/quote]

Okay, there is one Bridge to the Father. Still not seeing a problem.[/quote]

Did you forget a line between other men, the Pope and the Saints?[/quote]

There can be one, but what I’m revolving that diagram around is the fact that asking a man on earth is no different than asking a man that has gone to Heaven economically, it is asking another person to pray for you.