Catholic Q & A

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Cool game let’s keep playing. Where does it say you need an intercessor in the Bible?
[/quote]

James commands us what to do.

James 5:16-17: Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Eli’jah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth.

These below show us that people in the Bible prayed for each other, Tirib prays for me and I pray for him.

Acts 7:60 - And he knelt down and cried with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.”

12:5 - So Peter was kept in prison; but earnest prayer for him was made to God by the Church.

Col 1:9-12 - And son, from the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, to lead a life worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. may you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in light.

4:12 - Ep’aphras, who is one of yourselves, a servant of Christ Jesus, greets you, always remembering you earnestly in his prayers, that you may stand mature and fully assured in all the will of God.

Heb 13:18-19 - Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honorably in all things. I urge you to the more earnestly to do this in order that I may be restored to you sooner.

42

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
If B is the one mediator between A and man, and XYZ speaks of man in different worlds. If X can pray to B directly, and Z can pray to B directly, why can’t X ask Z to pray to B for X, and maybe even Y.[/quote]

Where is this chart located in the Bible? Okay, I’m being funny but again there is nothing of this in the Bible just the quote to Timothy by Paul. [/quote]

It doesn’t say anything in the Bible about who wrote The Gospel According to Mark or the proper way to get married.[/quote]

Nor does it tell you how to start your car on a cold winter morning - So what?
[/quote]

Exactly that, some things just aren’t in the Bible, even the Bible says so.

John 21:25, “there are also many other things which Jesus did, were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.”

To think that all the instructions of Jesus are in Bible is limiting Jesus is my point.

43

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Cool game let’s keep playing. Where does it say you need an intercessor in the Bible?
[/quote]

James commands us what to do.

James 5:16-17: Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Eli’jah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth.

These below show us that people in the Bible prayed for each other, Tirib prays for me and I pray for him.

Acts 7:60 - And he knelt down and cried with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.”

12:5 - So Peter was kept in prison; but earnest prayer for him was made to God by the Church.

Col 1:9-12 - And son, from the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, to lead a life worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. may you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in light.

4:12 - Ep’aphras, who is one of yourselves, a servant of Christ Jesus, greets you, always remembering you earnestly in his prayers, that you may stand mature and fully assured in all the will of God.

Heb 13:18-19 - Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honorably in all things. I urge you to the more earnestly to do this in order that I may be restored to you sooner.[/quote]

You are talking about two different things. Asking someone to pray for you, like Trib for example is a far cry from asking dead people to pray for you. You’ve not shown one Bible verse which indicates that we should ask dead people to pray for us.

44

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
If B is the one mediator between A and man, and XYZ speaks of man in different worlds. If X can pray to B directly, and Z can pray to B directly, why can’t X ask Z to pray to B for X, and maybe even Y.[/quote]

Where is this chart located in the Bible? Okay, I’m being funny but again there is nothing of this in the Bible just the quote to Timothy by Paul. [/quote]

It doesn’t say anything in the Bible about who wrote The Gospel According to Mark or the proper way to get married.[/quote]

Nor does it tell you how to start your car on a cold winter morning - So what?
[/quote]

Exactly that, some things just aren’t in the Bible, even the Bible says so.

John 21:25, “there are also many other things which Jesus did, were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.”

To think that all the instructions of Jesus are in Bible is limiting Jesus is my point.[/quote]

I’m going to have to call logical fallacy on that one my friend. You are claiming that BECAUSE certain things are not in the Bible then it’s okay to add things. Also, when there is clear instruction as in the case of there being only ONE mediator between God and man (Jesus) there is certainly no good reason to add anything to that.

45

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Cool game let’s keep playing. Where does it say you need an intercessor in the Bible?
[/quote]

James commands us what to do.

James 5:16-17: Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Eli’jah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth.

These below show us that people in the Bible prayed for each other, Tirib prays for me and I pray for him.

Acts 7:60 - And he knelt down and cried with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.”

12:5 - So Peter was kept in prison; but earnest prayer for him was made to God by the Church.

Col 1:9-12 - And son, from the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, to lead a life worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. may you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in light.

4:12 - Ep’aphras, who is one of yourselves, a servant of Christ Jesus, greets you, always remembering you earnestly in his prayers, that you may stand mature and fully assured in all the will of God.

Heb 13:18-19 - Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honorably in all things. I urge you to the more earnestly to do this in order that I may be restored to you sooner.[/quote]

You are talking about two different things. Asking someone to pray for you, like Trib for example is a far cry from asking dead people to pray for you. You’ve not shown one Bible verse which indicates that we should ask dead people to pray for us.[/quote]

Well, you’re right. Dead people cannot pray. But what did Jesus say about God? That he is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
In Luke chap. 16, Jesus refers to Lazarus being taken to Abraham’s side. Never was God himself mentioned in the parable. Saints are simply people who have managed, by their life and examples post human life that indicate that they are alive in heaven. In as much as I can ask another person to pray for me or something, we can ask the living to pray for us. There is no mandate, requirement, or otherwise to do so. It’s simply an option. People Holy in the eye’s of God are listened to by God.
Put it to the test if you do not believe. John the Baptist, Joseph, Mary are all favorable in the eyes of God in scripture. Give them a try, and you will see results. Often, they can argue your case better than you can.

You never pray to anybody but God. But through prayer you can ask the living in God to pray for you too. The worst thing that happens is nothing…But you won’t get nothing, you’ll always get something.

46

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Cool game let’s keep playing. Where does it say you need an intercessor in the Bible?
[/quote]

James commands us what to do.

James 5:16-17: Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Eli’jah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth.

These below show us that people in the Bible prayed for each other, Tirib prays for me and I pray for him.

Acts 7:60 - And he knelt down and cried with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.”

12:5 - So Peter was kept in prison; but earnest prayer for him was made to God by the Church.

Col 1:9-12 - And son, from the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, to lead a life worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God. may you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in light.

4:12 - Ep’aphras, who is one of yourselves, a servant of Christ Jesus, greets you, always remembering you earnestly in his prayers, that you may stand mature and fully assured in all the will of God.

Heb 13:18-19 - Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honorably in all things. I urge you to the more earnestly to do this in order that I may be restored to you sooner.[/quote]

You are talking about two different things. Asking someone to pray for you, like Trib for example is a far cry from asking dead people to pray for you. You’ve not shown one Bible verse which indicates that we should ask dead people to pray for us.[/quote]

So, you’re problem is not intercession, but that I am asking a “dead” person to do it?

47

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
If B is the one mediator between A and man, and XYZ speaks of man in different worlds. If X can pray to B directly, and Z can pray to B directly, why can’t X ask Z to pray to B for X, and maybe even Y.[/quote]

Where is this chart located in the Bible? Okay, I’m being funny but again there is nothing of this in the Bible just the quote to Timothy by Paul. [/quote]

It doesn’t say anything in the Bible about who wrote The Gospel According to Mark or the proper way to get married.[/quote]

Nor does it tell you how to start your car on a cold winter morning - So what?
[/quote]

Exactly that, some things just aren’t in the Bible, even the Bible says so.

John 21:25, “there are also many other things which Jesus did, were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.”

To think that all the instructions of Jesus are in Bible is limiting Jesus is my point.[/quote]

I’m going to have to call logical fallacy on that one my friend. You are claiming that BECAUSE certain things are not in the Bible then it’s okay to add things. Also, when there is clear instruction as in the case of there being only ONE mediator between God and man (Jesus) there is certainly no good reason to add anything to that.[/quote]

Um…no. You’re coming from the idea that the Bible was written and then the other stuff came about. When in fact it’s the other way around, we had the teachings and some of them went into the Bible and we still have the other stuff.

48

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
If B is the one mediator between A and man, and XYZ speaks of man in different worlds. If X can pray to B directly, and Z can pray to B directly, why can’t X ask Z to pray to B for X, and maybe even Y.[/quote]

Where is this chart located in the Bible? Okay, I’m being funny but again there is nothing of this in the Bible just the quote to Timothy by Paul. [/quote]

It doesn’t say anything in the Bible about who wrote The Gospel According to Mark or the proper way to get married.[/quote]

Nor does it tell you how to start your car on a cold winter morning - So what?
[/quote]

Exactly that, some things just aren’t in the Bible, even the Bible says so.

John 21:25, “there are also many other things which Jesus did, were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.”

To think that all the instructions of Jesus are in Bible is limiting Jesus is my point.[/quote]

I’m going to have to call logical fallacy on that one my friend. You are claiming that BECAUSE certain things are not in the Bible then it’s okay to add things. Also, when there is clear instruction as in the case of there being only ONE mediator between God and man (Jesus) there is certainly no good reason to add anything to that.[/quote]

Um…no. You’re coming from the idea that the Bible was written and then the other stuff came about. When in fact it’s the other way around, we had the teachings and some of them went into the Bible and we still have the other stuff.[/quote]

I’m not saying that it’s not okay to follow traditions that you may have in your church. I’m simply saying that you can’t rationalize them with the Bible. Especially in the case of having one mediator between God and man. And asking dead people to intercede with prayer? Um…Okay, but we both know that it’s not Biblical.

49

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
If B is the one mediator between A and man, and XYZ speaks of man in different worlds. If X can pray to B directly, and Z can pray to B directly, why can’t X ask Z to pray to B for X, and maybe even Y.[/quote]

Where is this chart located in the Bible? Okay, I’m being funny but again there is nothing of this in the Bible just the quote to Timothy by Paul. [/quote]

It doesn’t say anything in the Bible about who wrote The Gospel According to Mark or the proper way to get married.[/quote]

Nor does it tell you how to start your car on a cold winter morning - So what?
[/quote]

Exactly that, some things just aren’t in the Bible, even the Bible says so.

John 21:25, “there are also many other things which Jesus did, were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.”

To think that all the instructions of Jesus are in Bible is limiting Jesus is my point.[/quote]

I’m going to have to call logical fallacy on that one my friend. You are claiming that BECAUSE certain things are not in the Bible then it’s okay to add things. Also, when there is clear instruction as in the case of there being only ONE mediator between God and man (Jesus) there is certainly no good reason to add anything to that.[/quote]

Um…no. You’re coming from the idea that the Bible was written and then the other stuff came about. When in fact it’s the other way around, we had the teachings and some of them went into the Bible and we still have the other stuff.[/quote]

I’m not saying that it’s not okay to follow traditions that you may have in your church. I’m simply saying that you can’t rationalize them with the Bible. Especially in the case of having one mediator between God and man. And asking dead people to intercede with prayer? Um…Okay, but we both know that it’s not Biblical.[/quote]

But, I’m not asking dead people to intercede with prayer, I’m asking the living saints in Heaven, that is the communion of Saints. Interesting because I don’t know anything you just said, The Revelation of Saint John says something about these “dead” living saints in Heaven, “when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with gold bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”

Sounds like the “dead” living people in Heaven are offering up our prayers to the Lamb.

50

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Also, and maybe this is another thread all together, but which version of the bible do you all subscribe to? Just curious. I have a nutjob great uncle with one foot in the grave who hijacked my grandma’s funeral service this past year, holding us all hostage with a crazy speech about the KJV, and how we’re all going to hell if we read any other version. No joke.[/quote]KJV only is just wrong for a whole buncha really good reasons. My favorite is the NASB (New American Standard Bible). The ESV (English Standard Version) is quite good, but wasn’t really necessary in my view. I’m not a real big fan of the NIV (New International Version) which is immensely popular. It’s method is too loose for me and it rides the edge of being a sorta “translaphrase”. “The Message” is one I really hate.

51

[quote]pat wrote: Give them a try, and you will see results. Often, they can argue your case better than you can.
[/quote]

I’m not sure I understand your choice of words in ‘arguing’ a case before God. Seems to be the last place for an arguement.

52

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Also, and maybe this is another thread all together, but which version of the bible do you all subscribe to? Just curious. I have a nutjob great uncle with one foot in the grave who hijacked my grandma’s funeral service this past year, holding us all hostage with a crazy speech about the KJV, and how we’re all going to hell if we read any other version. No joke.[/quote]KJV only is just wrong for a whole buncha really good reasons. My favorite is the NASB (New American Standard Bible). The ESV (English Standard Version) is quite good, but wasn’t really necessary in my view. I’m not a real big fan of the NIV (New International Version) which is immensely popular. It’s method is too loose for me and it rides the edge of being a sorta “translaphrase”. “The Message” is one I really hate.

[/quote]

Latin Vulgate, for the win.

53

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:

[quote]pat wrote: Give them a try, and you will see results. Often, they can argue your case better than you can.
[/quote]

I’m not sure I understand your choice of words in ‘arguing’ a case before God. Seems to be the last place for an arguement.[/quote]

I don’t think the Saints are the ones to “argue” or bicker with God.

Argue in the sense of “state your case” or “argue your case.”

54

Stated,

“So, you’re problem is not intercession, but that I am asking a “dead” person to do it?”

The Word of God states that we are not to commit the forbidden pagan practice of necromancy, which is an abomination to God and forbidden by Him (Deut. 18:9-11). Those among God’s people in the O.T. who practiced this were put to death (Lev. 20:27). Anyone who calls up the dead or consults with the world of spirits is actually in communication with deceiving spirits (demons). How foolish to consult the dead on behalf of the living (Isa. 8:19). Like wise, the N.T. declares that those who practice such things will not enter the kingdom of God such as, “Idolatry” (Gk. eidololatria), i.e., the worship (honor) of spirits, persons, or graven images, also trust in any person, institution, or thing as having equal or greater authority than God and His Word (Gal. 5:19-21).

“Necromancy is a special mode of divination by the evocation of the dead…Along with other forms of divination and magic, necromancy is found in every nation of antiquity, and is a practice common to paganism at all times…In the Bible necromancy is mentioned chiefly in order to forbid it or to reprove those who have recourse to it. The Hebrew term 'ôbôth (sing., 'ôbh) denotes primarily the spirits of the dead, or ‘pythons’, as the Vulgate calls them (Deuteronomy 18:11; Isaiah 19:3)…The Mosaic Law forbids necromancy (Leviticus 19:31; 20:6), declares that to seek the truth from the dead is abhorred by God (Deuteronomy 18:11, 12), and even makes it punishable by death (Leviticus 20:27; cf. 1 Samuel 28:9)…In the first centuries of the Christian era the practice of necromancy was common among pagans, as the Fathers frequently testify (see, e.g., Tertullian, ‘Apol.’, xxiii, P.L., I, 470; ‘De anima’, LVI, LVII, in P.L., II, 790 sqq.; Lactantius, ‘Divinæ institutiones’, IV, xxvii, in P.L., VI, 531). It was associated with other magical arts and other forms of demoniacal practices, and Christians were warned against such observances ‘in which the demons represent themselves as the souls of the dead’ (Tertullian, De anima, LVII, in P.L., II, 793)…The Church does not deny that, with a special permission of God, the souls of the departed may appear to the living, and even manifest things unknown to the latter. But, understood as the art or science of evoking the dead, necromancy is held by theologians to be due to the agency of evil spirits, for the means taken are inadequate to produce the expected results. In pretended evocations of the dead, there may be many things explainable naturally or due to fraud; how much is real, and how much must be attributed to imagination and deception, cannot be determined, but real facts of necromancy, with the use of incantations and magical rites, are looked upon by theologians, after St. Thomas, II-II, Q. xcv, aa. iii, iv, as special modes of divination, due to demoniacal intervention, and divination itself is a form of superstition.”

55

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:
@ Sloth and Brother Chris:

You make very good arguments and I have nothing to dispute.

But what about the exaltation of Mary? Do you guys worship her or is that just a misconception?[/quote]Catholics worship God through the saints, and don’t worship the saints themselves. This is what I was taught.
[/quote]

How is that done?[/quote]

I don’t think that it is possible to do what he is saying. I mean we honor (not worship) the saints, and that honors God, and we pray to the saints and they pray to God for us, but worship is only for God.[/quote]

I have always been told that we can pray to the saints for intercession, or even to pray for us; however, when you really get down to it, everything goes straight to the Big Guy. One day I asked a similar question about Mary. “Why bother praying to her?” I thought. And it got me thinking…who would be better to ask for something than the mother of God herself?

Not sure if this is relevant, or if the question has already been answered, but Im glad to know that someone somewhere is asking good questions, instead of just assuming and writing things off ignorantly. Anyway, I like this answer, prayer I feel is more of a form of communication as was stated.

56

[quote]blacksheep wrote:
Stated,

“So, you’re problem is not intercession, but that I am asking a “dead” person to do it?”

The Word of God states that we are not to commit the forbidden pagan practice of necromancy, which is an abomination to God and forbidden by Him (Deut. 18:9-11). Those among God’s people in the O.T. who practiced this were put to death (Lev. 20:27). Anyone who calls up the dead or consults with the world of spirits is actually in communication with deceiving spirits (demons). How foolish to consult the dead on behalf of the living (Isa. 8:19). Like wise, the N.T. declares that those who practice such things will not enter the kingdom of God such as, “Idolatry” (Gk. eidololatria), i.e., the worship (honor) of spirits, persons, or graven images, also trust in any person, institution, or thing as having equal or greater authority than God and His Word (Gal. 5:19-21).

“Necromancy is a special mode of divination by the evocation of the dead…Along with other forms of divination and magic, necromancy is found in every nation of antiquity, and is a practice common to paganism at all times…In the Bible necromancy is mentioned chiefly in order to forbid it or to reprove those who have recourse to it. The Hebrew term 'Ã?´bÃ?´th (sing., 'Ã?´bh) denotes primarily the spirits of the dead, or ‘pythons’, as the Vulgate calls them (Deuteronomy 18:11; Isaiah 19:3)…The Mosaic Law forbids necromancy (Leviticus 19:31; 20:6), declares that to seek the truth from the dead is abhorred by God (Deuteronomy 18:11, 12), and even makes it punishable by death (Leviticus 20:27; cf. 1 Samuel 28:9)…In the first centuries of the Christian era the practice of necromancy was common among pagans, as the Fathers frequently testify (see, e.g., Tertullian, ‘Apol.’, xxiii, P.L., I, 470; ‘De anima’, LVI, LVII, in P.L., II, 790 sqq.; Lactantius, ‘DivinÃ?¦ institutiones’, IV, xxvii, in P.L., VI, 531). It was associated with other magical arts and other forms of demoniacal practices, and Christians were warned against such observances ‘in which the demons represent themselves as the souls of the dead’ (Tertullian, De anima, LVII, in P.L., II, 793)…The Church does not deny that, with a special permission of God, the souls of the departed may appear to the living, and even manifest things unknown to the latter. But, understood as the art or science of evoking the dead, necromancy is held by theologians to be due to the agency of evil spirits, for the means taken are inadequate to produce the expected results. In pretended evocations of the dead, there may be many things explainable naturally or due to fraud; how much is real, and how much must be attributed to imagination and deception, cannot be determined, but real facts of necromancy, with the use of incantations and magical rites, are looked upon by theologians, after St. Thomas, II-II, Q. xcv, aa. iii, iv, as special modes of divination, due to demoniacal intervention, and divination itself is a form of superstition.”

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10735a.htm[/quote]

blacksheep,

I hope you’re not inferring that I am asking a “dead” person to give me information for profit? The quotations around dead was purposeful in order to understand Zeb if he was arguing against them being “dead” people, which they aren’t since they are in Heaven, or if it was because I was in fact asking someone else instead of praying myself.

Praying to the saints, or better stated as asking the saints to pray for us, is not necromancy. Necromancy is the conjuring of the spirits in order to gain prophet or profit, I hold no such belief that spirits can be conjured, and I find conjuring the dead in order to profit a most distasteful activity.

If I have mistaken your intentions, and you are merely posting what someone would object to so as to show the difference between the communion of saints and praying to the saints and necromancy. Well done.

However, I can assure you that even, I, who have a Marian devotion, I do not hold Mary (who I hold above all other Saints) in any regard as I hold my Lord. I honor her, because of personal reasons, just as I hold the Holy Ghost in special regard for those same personal reasons. However, I hold the Holy Ghost 100 fold higher than Mary. I also honor (which is not the same as worship) Mary because our Lord honors his mother.

However, for all you heretical protestants :wink: I give you this link as a logical and biblical argument for honor and devotion to Mary – http://www.cmri.org/94prog9.htm

57

[quote]blacksheep wrote:
Stated,

“So, you’re problem is not intercession, but that I am asking a “dead” person to do it?”

The Word of God states that we are not to commit the forbidden pagan practice of necromancy, which is an abomination to God and forbidden by Him (Deut. 18:9-11). Those among God’s people in the O.T. who practiced this were put to death (Lev. 20:27). Anyone who calls up the dead or consults with the world of spirits is actually in communication with deceiving spirits (demons). How foolish to consult the dead on behalf of the living (Isa. 8:19). Like wise, the N.T. declares that those who practice such things will not enter the kingdom of God such as, “Idolatry” (Gk. eidololatria), i.e., the worship (honor) of spirits, persons, or graven images, also trust in any person, institution, or thing as having equal or greater authority than God and His Word (Gal. 5:19-21).

“Necromancy is a special mode of divination by the evocation of the dead…Along with other forms of divination and magic, necromancy is found in every nation of antiquity, and is a practice common to paganism at all times…In the Bible necromancy is mentioned chiefly in order to forbid it or to reprove those who have recourse to it. The Hebrew term 'Ã?´bÃ?´th (sing., 'Ã?´bh) denotes primarily the spirits of the dead, or ‘pythons’, as the Vulgate calls them (Deuteronomy 18:11; Isaiah 19:3)…The Mosaic Law forbids necromancy (Leviticus 19:31; 20:6), declares that to seek the truth from the dead is abhorred by God (Deuteronomy 18:11, 12), and even makes it punishable by death (Leviticus 20:27; cf. 1 Samuel 28:9)…In the first centuries of the Christian era the practice of necromancy was common among pagans, as the Fathers frequently testify (see, e.g., Tertullian, ‘Apol.’, xxiii, P.L., I, 470; ‘De anima’, LVI, LVII, in P.L., II, 790 sqq.; Lactantius, ‘DivinÃ?¦ institutiones’, IV, xxvii, in P.L., VI, 531). It was associated with other magical arts and other forms of demoniacal practices, and Christians were warned against such observances ‘in which the demons represent themselves as the souls of the dead’ (Tertullian, De anima, LVII, in P.L., II, 793)…The Church does not deny that, with a special permission of God, the souls of the departed may appear to the living, and even manifest things unknown to the latter. But, understood as the art or science of evoking the dead, necromancy is held by theologians to be due to the agency of evil spirits, for the means taken are inadequate to produce the expected results. In pretended evocations of the dead, there may be many things explainable naturally or due to fraud; how much is real, and how much must be attributed to imagination and deception, cannot be determined, but real facts of necromancy, with the use of incantations and magical rites, are looked upon by theologians, after St. Thomas, II-II, Q. xcv, aa. iii, iv, as special modes of divination, due to demoniacal intervention, and divination itself is a form of superstition.”

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10735a.htm[/quote]

This is an interesting aspect that I have never considered before. And to think Catholicism is the first Christian religion and all other are spin offs. All the more reason to be cynical of organized religion

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[quote]pittbulll wrote:
think Catholicism is the first Christian religion and all other are spin offs.[/quote]

I’d say only, but correct.

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[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:

[quote]pat wrote: Give them a try, and you will see results. Often, they can argue your case better than you can.
[/quote]

I’m not sure I understand your choice of words in ‘arguing’ a case before God. Seems to be the last place for an arguement.[/quote]

I don’t think the Saints are the last to “argue” or bicker with God.

Argue in the sense of “state your case” or “argue your case.”[/quote]

Ths Saints bicker with God? That’s just wrong to me. (Notice I didn’t say that wrong for you or anyone else!) I never could really accept the whole intermediary thing, aside from Christ. The Saints are interesting, to an extent. But the Saints, and organized religions, just seem like middlemen. Perhaps they are helpful on occasion, like a crutch, but wouldn’t you want your prayer life to be just between you and your Creator most of the time?

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[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
If B is the one mediator between A and man, and XYZ speaks of man in different worlds. If X can pray to B directly, and Z can pray to B directly, why can’t X ask Z to pray to B for X, and maybe even Y.[/quote]

Where is this chart located in the Bible? Okay, I’m being funny but again there is nothing of this in the Bible just the quote to Timothy by Paul. [/quote]

It doesn’t say anything in the Bible about who wrote The Gospel According to Mark or the proper way to get married.[/quote]

Nor does it tell you how to start your car on a cold winter morning - So what?
[/quote]

Exactly that, some things just aren’t in the Bible, even the Bible says so.

John 21:25, “there are also many other things which Jesus did, were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.”

To think that all the instructions of Jesus are in Bible is limiting Jesus is my point.[/quote]

I’m going to have to call logical fallacy on that one my friend. You are claiming that BECAUSE certain things are not in the Bible then it’s okay to add things. Also, when there is clear instruction as in the case of there being only ONE mediator between God and man (Jesus) there is certainly no good reason to add anything to that.[/quote]

Um…no. You’re coming from the idea that the Bible was written and then the other stuff came about. When in fact it’s the other way around, we had the teachings and some of them went into the Bible and we still have the other stuff.[/quote]

I’m not saying that it’s not okay to follow traditions that you may have in your church. I’m simply saying that you can’t rationalize them with the Bible. Especially in the case of having one mediator between God and man. And asking dead people to intercede with prayer? Um…Okay, but we both know that it’s not Biblical.[/quote]

But, I’m not asking dead people to intercede with prayer, I’m asking the living saints in Heaven, that is the communion of Saints. Interesting because I don’t know anything you just said, The Revelation of Saint John says something about these “dead” living saints in Heaven, “when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with gold bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”

Sounds like the “dead” living people in Heaven are offering up our prayers to the Lamb.[/quote]

I’m familiar with that scripture and no where does it say or even imply that those dead people can, or should intercede in human affairs on earth. Again, the Bible clearly states that there is only one mediator between God and man and that is Jesus Christ.