[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
He renders all things certain without in any way being responsible for evil and that by eternally divine mechanisms known only to Himself alone.[/quote]
Well please show us this scripture that proves this.
That’s amazing because only protestantism is tries to improve upon the Word of God. Well, actually they take a piece of the Word of God and call it an improvement.
[quote]No time again.
[/quote]
Yes we know, enough time to make claims not enough time to prove claims.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
You don’t understand the connection between free will and omnipotence?[/quote]
I understand it decently.
Saying God is omnipotent and CANNOT give us free will is contradictory.
Um, yes we can. God is not restricted in time, he didn’t see in the future what we would do, he knows as we do them what we do. Since he existed at once forever he sees our actions at once forever (although he does “forget” them in a sense, but that is a different matter).
God is not restricted by time, so there is no future for God. He doesn’t know what we will do because he predestined us to do it, he knows because he is not restrained by time so he is present in 2011 B.C. as much as he is present in 2011 A.D.
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
An example; I woke up this morning. I had the option to get off on the right side, or the left side. let’s say God looked into the future and saw that I got off on the right side and a few moments later I do, indeed, get off on the right side. Did I have a choice? If I instead got off on the left side, then God would be wrong, therefore, not omnipotent. If I got off on the right side I would be picking the option that I was prophesied to take long before I was even aware of the option, meaning my perception of having “choice” was only an illusion. [/quote]
This is because you think God looks to the future. He doesn’t he is omnipresent and that means he is present in the “future” he doesn’t look to the future, he doesn’t have a crystal ball.
To make it really simple, let’s say you are dual present. You are here in time and you are five minutes a head, as well. Since you have one intellect you would know what is going on now in time and what is going on in five minutes. You are not looking into the future, you are present in that future.
Now, God is omnipresent…he is present in all moments. So, God isn’t present just now, he is equally present in the past and the future.
I know confusing. Takes a lot to wrap your mind around and it is still confusing.
[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< That is, if you are inclined to really find the answer to your question, and are not just here to stir up shit ;)[/quote]If you’re addressing this to me I don’t have a question. I haven’t had a question about this since 1989. I know the gospel truth about the all sovereign all governing King of all creation. What I don’t know is how He does it and I no longer care because somewhere along the way I took the Spirit speaking though Paul seriously and stopped answering back to God.
He made it clear to me thereby that it was presumptuous insolence that persisted in probing His mysteries deeper than either He had created me to understand or that He had chosen to reveal.
BTW, that nightmare passage of self fancied autonomous men, the 9th of Romans in the 22nd verse, the deadly word rendered as fitted for in the Douay-Rheims, made for in the New American Bible and prepared for in the English Standard Version is a Plural verb participle in the perfect tense, accusative case, and PASSIVE voice. It is a present state resulting from being acted UPON in the past. Oh yes it is and even the Catholic scholars translated it that way because they don’t wanna be laughed out of the koine Greek club =D .
These are people “fitted for”, “made for”, “prepared for” destruction. Yes, this form can IN VERY SPECIFIC contexts be rendered in the middle voice (prepared themselves), but NOT here hence, nobody translates it that way. Not even most protestant Arminians who long every bit as badly as you do to answer back to God about why He made people this way. They will not do it because it’s just not honest.
Face it. God creates people to destroy them. Not only this whole book of Romans actually, but the system of thought revealed through the whole of scripture declares the unchangeable decree of almighty God. Do I like that? Who cares? He hasn’t asked my opinion. So this is a theocentric governing passage wherein God has declared in no certain terms an aspect of His nature and being. I then see anything the bible says as unable to alter that because God… GOD, the main man, the head honcho, the big cheese, has nowhere said that He has condescended His eternal divinity to our derivative humanity. Show me that. I dare ya. Not the incarnation either with Christ acting in His humanity.
While were at it: Isaiah 46: 8-11
8 "Remember this and stand firm,
recall it to mind, you transgressors,
9 remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
11 calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it.
Show me where the Father chooses not to know something. I’m not talkin about some obvious anthropomorphic/anthropopathic linguistic device. Where is God saying “I choose not to know things future because a lot of Catholics and Arminians will be happy if I don’t?” (ok, I’m bein snarky). Oh yeah. Think with me for a minute after you find out that there is absolutely NO actual or possible object of knowledge, past, present or future about which God is not exhaustively, comprehensively and contemporaneously cognizant of. God’s knowledge of the future (to us, He’s not limited by time) is certain … period. Or God may be deceived. For Him to KNOW something as future renders that thing utterly certain.
@Chris, I wrote that comment, then realized that I used the wrong word and fixed it, but I guess it didn’t save… here is the revised version:
My mistake, I wrote “omnipotence” but meant to write “omniscience”. They are contradictory. If our every action is already known since the dawn of time then we can’t have free will as all of our actions have been predestined. If God knows everything we will ever do and think then to chose anything other than what God already knows we will do will be a mistake on God’s part, meaning he won’t be omniscient.
Intellect is irrelevant. My point was that we are only about as simple as ants compared to God, despite our advantages over ants. You’ve written off my analogy with a non-sequitur. We know every act a leaf cutter ant will make (perhaps not as specifically as God knows about us, but he is omniscient after all…). If that ant does anything against what we have predicted then we were wrong and cannot be called omniscient, however, if we do accurately predict everything that ant ever did it would mean that the ants behavior is entirely controlled by cause and effect, not by free will. Just as if God can accurately predict our every move (well, he doesn’t need prediction as he actually knows, but that’s irrelevant) then it means our every move is entirely predicated on cause and effect, not on free will.
An example; I woke up this morning. I had the option to get off on the right side, or the left side. let’s say God looked into the future and saw that I got off on the right side and a few moments later I do, indeed, get off on the right side. Did I have a choice? If I instead got off on the left side, then God would be wrong, therefore, not omniscient. If I got off on the right side I would be picking the option that I was prophesied to take long before I was even aware of the option, meaning my perception of having “choice” was only an illusion.
Anyway, here is my response to the other part of your comment:
Is God present in all possibilities simultaneously, or is time a line in which he exists in its entirety? In other words, is there another dimension (so to speak) where I went to the left side in which God also exists?
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
An example; I woke up this morning. I had the option to get off on the right side, or the left side. let’s say God looked into the future and saw that I got off on the right side and a few moments later I do, indeed, get off on the right side. Did I have a choice?[/quote]
Yes. Was young George Washington lacking a free will because we know that in HIS future he’d fight in the Revolution? The omniscient would see all time as we now see Washington’s. History.
If you got up on the left side, it would’ve been known. Had you gotten up on the left, despite choosing the right, it would’ve been known too. However, you really might need to question your will in that case.
Prophesied is not predetermined.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Just to clarify, this last comment was directed at Tiger Time, not you, Tirib.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I consider all those that protest against the Catholic Church to be faithful protestants. >>>[/quote]You consider in error.[quote]Brother Chris wrote:…So, you’re Jewish? >>>[/quote]Yep.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Just to clarify, this last comment was directed at Tiger Time, not you, Tirib.
[/quote]Well fair enough. Jist bein sher.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
<<<What I don’t know is how He does it and I no longer care >>>
[/quote]
And that’s the problem, right there.
You think because you have chosen a path of willful ignorance that everybody should just do the same. We should not examine what God says or what is professed through faith. Tirib says that God is that way so everybody should just accept it.
You’re an idiot. Why would he have sent his Son to save us?
I am starting to question your actual sanity. If this is truly your take, you know nothing about scripture. Your just a puppet of a man, a murderous, blasphemous Calvin, who would have people executed for not believing his tripe…Hell of a way to spread a message.
[quote]pat wrote:<<< And that’s the problem, right there.
You think because you have chosen a path of willful ignorance that everybody should just do the same. We should not examine what God says or what is professed through faith. >>>[/quote]Why am I doing this to myself? Oh yeah. All the people who lurk, but never post.
There is nothing willful about it Pat. This kind of ignorance is an innate function of creaturely finitude. YOU are just as ignorant as I am of the secret things that belong to the Lord (Deuteronomy 29:29). I simply trust Him and refuse to pursue what He has not revealed. [quote]pat wrote:<<< Tirib says that God is that way so everybody should just accept it. >>>[/quote]God says God is that way and Tirib not only accepts it, but embraces it with joy and humility. Aquinas living through Pat refuses. [quote]pat wrote:<<< You’re an idiot. Why would he have sent his Son to save us? >>>[/quote]He created some to destroy and some to save just like the whole bible teaches when God is allowed to be God. Romans 9:22-23 (Catholic NAB) “22-What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction? 23-This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory,” [quote]pat wrote:<<< I am starting to question your actual sanity. If this is truly your take, you know nothing about scripture. >>>[/quote]What is you sane take on the above?
[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Anyway, here is my response to the other part of your comment:
Is God present in all possibilities simultaneously, or is time a line in which he exists in its entirety? In other words, is there another dimension (so to speak) where I went to the left side in which God also exists?[/quote]
Well it matters, there is no revelation, but there is speculation on there being dimensions. However, if there were other dimensions God would be present in those, as well.
God is omnipresent because what one creates he is master of and not subject to. God created the universe and is not subject to space or time as space and time exist only within the universe.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
You consider in error.[/quote]
So, then who do you protest?
Shalom. How was your Shavuot?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Romans 9:22-23 (Catholic NAB) “22-What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction? 23-This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory,”
[/quote]
Witham on v. 22-23: He now gives the reason why God might, without any injustice, have mercy on some, and not on others; grant particular graces and favours to his elect, and not equally to all; because all mankind was become liable to damnation by original sin: the clay that all are made of, is a sinful clay; and as St. Augustine says, was become a lump and mass of damnation. Every one had sinned in Adam. Now, if out of this sinful lump and multitude God, to shew the richness of his glory, and superabundant mercy, hath chosen some as vessels of election, whom he hath decreed to save, and by special graces and favours to make partakers of his heavenly kingdom; and to shew his justice and hatred of sin, hath left others as vessels of his wrath and justice, to be lost in their sins, which for a time he bears patiently with, when they deserved present punishment, who can say that he hath done unjustly?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Romans 9:22-23 (Catholic NAB) “22-What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction? 23-This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory,”
[/quote]
Witham on v. 22-23: He now gives the reason why God might, without any injustice, have mercy on some, and not on others; grant particular graces and favours to his elect, and not equally to all; because all mankind was become liable to damnation by original sin: the clay that all are made of, is a sinful clay; and as St. Augustine says, was become a lump and mass of damnation. Every one had sinned in Adam. Now, if out of this sinful lump and multitude God, to shew the richness of his glory, and superabundant mercy, hath chosen some as vessels of election, whom he hath decreed to save, and by special graces and favours to make partakers of his heavenly kingdom; and to shew his justice and hatred of sin, hath left others as vessels of his wrath and justice, to be lost in their sins, which for a time he bears patiently with, when they deserved present punishment, who can say that he hath done unjustly? >>>[/quote]No fair quoting me Chris. That’s plagiarism, I’ll sue =] You should stop right here, doctrinally speaking, but you won’t. Or at least let this govern whatever else you find. You won’t do that either though. I see you’ve stumbled over your church’s attempts to square the unmistakable declarations of scripture with Aristotle and Aquinas. Yeah, yeah, yeah, double predestination is what’s REALLY evil right? Fine. More later I hope.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Romans 9:22-23 (Catholic NAB) “22-What if God, wishing to show his wrath and make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction? 23-This was to make known the riches of his glory to the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared previously for glory,”
[/quote]
Witham on v. 22-23: He now gives the reason why God might, without any injustice, have mercy on some, and not on others; grant particular graces and favours to his elect, and not equally to all; because all mankind was become liable to damnation by original sin: the clay that all are made of, is a sinful clay; and as St. Augustine says, was become a lump and mass of damnation. Every one had sinned in Adam. Now, if out of this sinful lump and multitude God, to shew the richness of his glory, and superabundant mercy, hath chosen some as vessels of election, whom he hath decreed to save, and by special graces and favours to make partakers of his heavenly kingdom; and to shew his justice and hatred of sin, hath left others as vessels of his wrath and justice, to be lost in their sins, which for a time he bears patiently with, when they deserved present punishment, who can say that he hath done unjustly? >>>[/quote]No fair quoting me Chris. That’s plagiarism, I’ll sue =] You should stop right here, doctrinally speaking, but you won’t. Or at least let this govern whatever else you find. You won’t do that either though. I see you’ve stumbled over your church’s attempts to square the unmistakable declarations of scripture with Aristotle and Aquinas. Yeah, yeah, yeah, double predestination is what’s REALLY evil right? Fine. More later I hope.
[/quote]
I believe the word “present” modifies the paragraph, and is a key point of contention between Calvinists and, well, pretty much everybody else.
So “lost in their sins” is only for the present after which these vessels prepared for destruction go to heaven huh? Come on man. Seriously? I know how horrifying it is for the autonomous man to be faced with the ego crushing, mind bending majesty and power of the almighty ruler of all that is. I really do. I went through it myself. There is unspeakable, unthinkable, unshakable certainly and peace staring you right in the face my friend.
We can talk forever. It will not change who and what He is. BTW, I’ve had a bunch of Catholic quotes in mind like this for many months wondering when Chris would dig some up. He’s been hinting for a few weeks now that the church DOES deal with predestination and election. There’s no way out unless you just take a pair of scissors to the bible. (Not just Romans 9 by a long shot either Cortes)
They do an ultimately weak job because they’re chained to previous authoritative declarations. Calvin didn’t suffer from that and simply let the bible speak by the very grace he found there and praise be to God that he did.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
So “lost in their sins” is only for the present after which these vessels prepared for destruction go to heaven huh? Come on man. Seriously? I know how horrifying it is for the autonomous man to be faced with the ego crushing, mind bending majesty and power of the almighty ruler of all that is. I really do. I went through it myself. There is unspeakable, unthinkable, unshakable certainly and peace staring you right in the face my friend. We can talk forever. It will not change who and what He is. BTW, I’ve had a bunch of Catholic quotes in mind like this for many months wondering when Chris would dig some up. He’s been hinting for a few weeks now that the church DOES deal with predestination and election. There’s no way out unless you just take a pair of scissors to the bible. (Not just Romans 9 by a long shot either Cortes) They do an ultimately weak job because they’re chained to previous authoritative declarations. Calvin didn’t suffer from that and simply let the bible speak by the very grace he found there and praise be to God that he did.[/quote]
Not what I was suggesting, but again I don’t feel qualified to try and promote this stuff like it’s my own at this point. There is very good exegesis regarding Romans 9 and free will and it’s not what you are implying I am implying here, though I’m sure you vehemently disagree with it, as well.