Catholic Q & A

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
721

I will prelude this with saying this is what Catholics believe and I believe that what is taught by the Catholic Church is wholly right. I intend to state things that are taken as truthful and factual as a Catholic. If you wish to argue to convince me otherwise, it would behoove you to start another thread as this was started to learn more about what Catholics believe, do, pray, &c.

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Alright, but there’s a problem here. God knows everything, yes? Does that not mean he has known our ultimate fate (Heaven or Hell) Since the beginning of time? If he knows this, then by creating these people he is ensuring they spend an eternity in Hell, if he doesn’t (know this) then he isn’t omniscient.

Is God omniscient?[/quote]

Your statement is well placed, but lacks grounding. I will point out why.

  1. You stated a truth and then you stated two falsehoods to choose from, this is a false dichotomy. [SN: This is not a false dichotomy for Calvinist. I am not a Calvinist so you will be more inclined to point this to Tirib as he believes more of your statement than I do.]

  2. Catholics believe in several things that you are missing in your argument: free will and omnipresence.

The truth you stated is that God is omniscient. The two false statements are 1) God created them ensuring they spend eternity in hell and 2) God is not omniscient.

The reason the former statement, “God created them ensuring,” is false is because God has given his children free will. He even created Lucifer (the highest and most loved of God’s Angels, even above Michael) with free will and he did this because of his infinitely perfect love.

God did not create his most loved Angel so that Lucifer could do evil, he created Lucifer to serve him and his highest Creation – man – whom God wished to be in communion with so much that he became the Son of Man, flesh and blood.

God gives us sufficient grace, which was done by Jesus dying on the crucifix for all men, so that all men could accept the saving grace which is in the baptism of Jesus and the faith which God has given us and that which the Church puts forth for us to believe.

All men are able to receive saving grace through baptism and repentance, as John the Baptist points out. The Lord also gave us other instruments, which we find in the seven Sacraments (baptism being one of the seven), that bring us grace so that we might merit salvation - only because of the infinite and perfect merit that came from the one, true sacrifice on the cross - and meet our end. Our end being to sit with the Lord as sons of God and Gods ourselves and share in His divine nature.

I say, all men are able. That does not mean that all men ‘do’ and not all that ‘do,’ persevere. This is not because of God predestination of some to hell, this is because of the Fall. Our nature is good, but it has been corrupted by the fall of our Father Adam. Although he was given the strength of the Lord to walk in the Way of Light, he did otherwise take down all of man.

We have an inclination to the virtuous, but we also have been afflicted by concupiscence, this is because of our natural inclination to be Gods, but instead of following the Way of the Light, we follow the Way of Darkness (for my Jewish brothers). The Way of Light is the only way to share in his Divine Nature. The Way of Darkness is truly the rejection of the Authority.

As I pointed out we have free will, this gives us the ability to choose the Way of Light or reject Authority. When we choose the Way of Light, because of our Affliction we cannot sustain ourselves, we have to be in the Grace of God. And when you reject authority, you remove yourself from the love of God, and when you are removed from that love you are left without Grace.

In order to receive that Grace one must make a sacrifice to the Lord. There is only one sacrifice that is sufficient for the Father and that is the Sacrifice on Calvary. To be more crude and morbid, I suppose, the only sacrifice that is sufficient for the Father is the sacrifice of the first born Son. No other sacrifice is sufficient on its own, only when such a sacrifice is done within the sacrifice of the first born Son does that sacrifice earn merit.

However, what does this speak of for those who do spend eternity in Hell? How does God allow such evil? It is a simple answer, one that has put me in harms way before. The reason God allows evil is because a greater good will come out of it. Older men know of this better than I do. I can only see evil right now and hope that I can one day see that greater good.

You may then point out and ask why he would allow for this evil for the greater good and simply destroy all evil? The answer is I don’t truly know (I know why, I don’t know why he allowed this certain way of happening). What I do know is that he does so because of love, which comes from his Perfection. I will explain.

In order to understand fully what I mean by evil and the greater good. We shall look at the Greatest Evil (as one learns distinctions from seeing such things in extremes). The Greatest Evil is dei-cide (the killing of a god). The Crucifixion is dei-cide, plain and simple. MAN killed GOD. The creature killed the creator, that is the greatest evil. However, he allowed it for the Greatest Good. The Greatest Good is the Salvation for all men.

So, to answer your question. No, God does not ensure some eternity in Hell. In his Greatness and Love he gave man free will. And, with that free will man is able to choose to either obey authority or to disobey authority. When man chooses to disobey authority he pulls himself out of the Love of God*. So, God does not send man to Hell, but man freely chooses to reject authority, remove himself or reject grace and to live eternally in Hatred of All That is Good.

  • ‘Love’ of God can also be called the ‘Truth’ of God, which are both names for Jesus Christ.

I am, in Charity,

Chris IV

722

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Ok, I read around this Vandapool guy’s site for like the last 45 minutes. I had a fairly long response to the piece you linked, but decided not to post it because I don’t have the time to challenge anyone and more importantly I felt that old immature prideful me trying to claw His way back out as I found myself licking my chops and cracking my knuckles. What an ignorant mildly entertaining clown LOL! I kept the post in case I change my mind which would take some time in prayer. [/quote]

Here is the entertaining clown again destroying protestantism again with his proof-texting Catholic authority.

http://patrickvandapool.com/2011/07/06/ecclesiology-catholics-prefer-to-start-at-the-beginning/

Don’t get so upset, it is not straw man, Tirib. He is defending against one of the biggest protestant denominations the Church of Christ.

723

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Ok, I read around this Vandapool guy’s site for like the last 45 minutes. I had a fairly long response to the piece you linked, but decided not to post it because I don’t have the time to challenge anyone and more importantly I felt that old immature prideful me trying to claw His way back out as I found myself licking my chops and cracking my knuckles. What an ignorant mildly entertaining clown LOL! I kept the post in case I change my mind which would take some time in prayer. [/quote]

Here is the entertaining clown again destroying protestantism again with his proof-texting Catholic authority.

http://patrickvandapool.com/2011/07/06/ecclesiology-catholics-prefer-to-start-at-the-beginning/

Don’t get so upset, it is not straw man, Tirib. He is defending against one of the biggest protestant denominations the Church of Christ.[/quote]

C.S.A.

724

[quote]jakerz96 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
http://patrickvandapool.com/2011/06/03/how-to-convert-a-catholic-to-true-christianity/

A friend of mine.[/quote][quote]<<< #1 First of all, make sure you target the lowest hanging fruit. [/quote]I stopped right here. No need to go any further. More anti evangelical, to say nothing of unChristian humanism. The booklet I mean. I didn’t expect anything more from yet another slayer of strawmen sent from Rome.
[/quote]
Is satire lost on you Tirib?[/quote]

I hope not: http://patrickvandapool.com/2011/07/07/jesus-was-accused-of-being-demon-possessed-too/

725

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Ok, I read around this Vandapool guy’s site for like the last 45 minutes. I had a fairly long response to the piece you linked, but decided not to post it because I don’t have the time to challenge anyone and more importantly I felt that old immature prideful me trying to claw His way back out as I found myself licking my chops and cracking my knuckles. What an ignorant mildly entertaining clown LOL! I kept the post in case I change my mind which would take some time in prayer. [/quote]

Here is the entertaining clown again destroying protestantism again with his proof-texting Catholic authority.

http://patrickvandapool.com/2011/07/06/ecclesiology-catholics-prefer-to-start-at-the-beginning/

Don’t get so upset, it is not straw man, Tirib. He is defending against one of the biggest protestant denominations the Church of Christ.[/quote]I will join him in refuting much of what the arminian
church of Christ believes myself Chris. The church, meaning the body of all the elect who are predestined to new life in Christ, has existed from all eternity in the mind of God and was born in time in the 12th of Genesis with the Abrahamic covenant. Paul states this with such clarity and force in his epistles that only strong deception, like catholicism or dispensationalism can overcome it. Once again he chooses “low hanging fruit” which is quite typical of the apologetics of Rome.

I now know why the Lord prevented me from posting my challenge to him about the emergent church. Some personal things have happened since that have made even my participation here difficult.

BTW, this is why I wish we could communicate more directly. I am not even slightly angry. If you had any idea what I was dealing with (and you couldn’t guess) in real life which also does not have me angry you would laugh at your own accusation.

One more thing. I do not consider any arminian denomination to be faithful “protestantism” though I do consider many of their members to be to be true and sometimes VERY strong if theologically inconsistent believers. Destroying the Church of Christ because she has numbers in apostate modern America means nothing. My first “pope” is Abraham (so to speak, don,t go gittin all exercised on me now)

726

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I will prelude this with saying this is what Catholics believe and I believe that what is taught by the Catholic Church is wholly right. I intend to state things that are taken as truthful and factual as a Catholic. If you wish to argue to convince me otherwise, it would behoove you to start another thread as this was started to learn more about what Catholics believe, do, pray, &c.

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Alright, but there’s a problem here. God knows everything, yes? Does that not mean he has known our ultimate fate (Heaven or Hell) Since the beginning of time? If he knows this, then by creating these people he is ensuring they spend an eternity in Hell, if he doesn’t (know this) then he isn’t omniscient.

Is God omniscient?[/quote]

Your statement is well placed, but lacks grounding. I will point out why.

  1. You stated a truth and then you stated two falsehoods to choose from, this is a false dichotomy. [SN: This is not a false dichotomy for Calvinist. I am not a Calvinist so you will be more inclined to point this to Tirib as he believes more of your statement than I do.]

  2. Catholics believe in several things that you are missing in your argument: free will and omnipresence.

The truth you stated is that God is omniscient. The two false statements are 1) God created them ensuring they spend eternity in hell and 2) God is not omniscient.

The reason the former statement, “God created them ensuring,” is false is because God has given his children free will. He even created Lucifer (the highest and most loved of God’s Angels, even above Michael) with free will and he did this because of his infinitely perfect love.

God did not create his most loved Angel so that Lucifer could do evil, he created Lucifer to serve him and his highest Creation – man – whom God wished to be in communion with so much that he became the Son of Man, flesh and blood.

God gives us sufficient grace, which was done by Jesus dying on the crucifix for all men, so that all men could accept the saving grace which is in the baptism of Jesus and the faith which God has given us and that which the Church puts forth for us to believe.

All men are able to receive saving grace through baptism and repentance, as John the Baptist points out. The Lord also gave us other instruments, which we find in the seven Sacraments (baptism being one of the seven), that bring us grace so that we might merit salvation - only because of the infinite and perfect merit that came from the one, true sacrifice on the cross - and meet our end. Our end being to sit with the Lord as sons of God and Gods ourselves and share in His divine nature.

I say, all men are able. That does not mean that all men ‘do’ and not all that ‘do,’ persevere. This is not because of God predestination of some to hell, this is because of the Fall. Our nature is good, but it has been corrupted by the fall of our Father Adam. Although he was given the strength of the Lord to walk in the Way of Light, he did otherwise take down all of man.

We have an inclination to the virtuous, but we also have been afflicted by concupiscence, this is because of our natural inclination to be Gods, but instead of following the Way of the Light, we follow the Way of Darkness (for my Jewish brothers). The Way of Light is the only way to share in his Divine Nature. The Way of Darkness is truly the rejection of the Authority.

As I pointed out we have free will, this gives us the ability to choose the Way of Light or reject Authority. When we choose the Way of Light, because of our Affliction we cannot sustain ourselves, we have to be in the Grace of God. And when you reject authority, you remove yourself from the love of God, and when you are removed from that love you are left without Grace.

In order to receive that Grace one must make a sacrifice to the Lord. There is only one sacrifice that is sufficient for the Father and that is the Sacrifice on Calvary. To be more crude and morbid, I suppose, the only sacrifice that is sufficient for the Father is the sacrifice of the first born Son. No other sacrifice is sufficient on its own, only when such a sacrifice is done within the sacrifice of the first born Son does that sacrifice earn merit.

However, what does this speak of for those who do spend eternity in Hell? How does God allow such evil? It is a simple answer, one that has put me in harms way before. The reason God allows evil is because a greater good will come out of it. Older men know of this better than I do. I can only see evil right now and hope that I can one day see that greater good.

You may then point out and ask why he would allow for this evil for the greater good and simply destroy all evil? The answer is I don’t truly know (I know why, I don’t know why he allowed this certain way of happening). What I do know is that he does so because of love, which comes from his Perfection. I will explain.

In order to understand fully what I mean by evil and the greater good. We shall look at the Greatest Evil (as one learns distinctions from seeing such things in extremes). The Greatest Evil is dei-cide (the killing of a god). The Crucifixion is dei-cide, plain and simple. MAN killed GOD. The creature killed the creator, that is the greatest evil. However, he allowed it for the Greatest Good. The Greatest Good is the Salvation for all men.

So, to answer your question. No, God does not ensure some eternity in Hell. In his Greatness and Love he gave man free will. And, with that free will man is able to choose to either obey authority or to disobey authority. When man chooses to disobey authority he pulls himself out of the Love of God*. So, God does not send man to Hell, but man freely chooses to reject authority, remove himself or reject grace and to live eternally in Hatred of All That is Good.

  • ‘Love’ of God can also be called the ‘Truth’ of God, which are both names for Jesus Christ.

I am, in Charity,

Chris IV[/quote]

This is a great write-up, Chris, and I certainly appreciate it, and hope a lot of others do. I already know how your addressee is going to respond, however. I’ll save him the trouble:

This still does not explain how, if God is indeed omniscient, he knew from the beginning of time (so to speak) who would live forever with him and who would perish. How do you square this circle? If God is truly omniscient, then he must in some part be responsible for evil, no? And if he somehow did not know, well then “God” is nothing more than a limited, contingent being, subjecting to shortcomings just as we are.

Of course I am already pretty sure what you are going to reply, as it’s what I already believe, but I am interested in hearing your take on it.

727

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I will prelude this with saying this is what Catholics believe and I believe that what is taught by the Catholic Church is wholly right. I intend to state things that are taken as truthful and factual as a Catholic. If you wish to argue to convince me otherwise, it would behoove you to start another thread as this was started to learn more about what Catholics believe, do, pray, &c.

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Alright, but there’s a problem here. God knows everything, yes? Does that not mean he has known our ultimate fate (Heaven or Hell) Since the beginning of time? If he knows this, then by creating these people he is ensuring they spend an eternity in Hell, if he doesn’t (know this) then he isn’t omniscient.

Is God omniscient?[/quote]

Your statement is well placed, but lacks grounding. I will point out why.

  1. You stated a truth and then you stated two falsehoods to choose from, this is a false dichotomy. [SN: This is not a false dichotomy for Calvinist. I am not a Calvinist so you will be more inclined to point this to Tirib as he believes more of your statement than I do.]

  2. Catholics believe in several things that you are missing in your argument: free will and omnipresence.

The truth you stated is that God is omniscient. The two false statements are 1) God created them ensuring they spend eternity in hell and 2) God is not omniscient.

The reason the former statement, “God created them ensuring,” is false is because God has given his children free will. He even created Lucifer (the highest and most loved of God’s Angels, even above Michael) with free will and he did this because of his infinitely perfect love.

God did not create his most loved Angel so that Lucifer could do evil, he created Lucifer to serve him and his highest Creation – man – whom God wished to be in communion with so much that he became the Son of Man, flesh and blood.

God gives us sufficient grace, which was done by Jesus dying on the crucifix for all men, so that all men could accept the saving grace which is in the baptism of Jesus and the faith which God has given us and that which the Church puts forth for us to believe.

All men are able to receive saving grace through baptism and repentance, as John the Baptist points out. The Lord also gave us other instruments, which we find in the seven Sacraments (baptism being one of the seven), that bring us grace so that we might merit salvation - only because of the infinite and perfect merit that came from the one, true sacrifice on the cross - and meet our end. Our end being to sit with the Lord as sons of God and Gods ourselves and share in His divine nature.

I say, all men are able. That does not mean that all men ‘do’ and not all that ‘do,’ persevere. This is not because of God predestination of some to hell, this is because of the Fall. Our nature is good, but it has been corrupted by the fall of our Father Adam. Although he was given the strength of the Lord to walk in the Way of Light, he did otherwise take down all of man.

We have an inclination to the virtuous, but we also have been afflicted by concupiscence, this is because of our natural inclination to be Gods, but instead of following the Way of the Light, we follow the Way of Darkness (for my Jewish brothers). The Way of Light is the only way to share in his Divine Nature. The Way of Darkness is truly the rejection of the Authority.

As I pointed out we have free will, this gives us the ability to choose the Way of Light or reject Authority. When we choose the Way of Light, because of our Affliction we cannot sustain ourselves, we have to be in the Grace of God. And when you reject authority, you remove yourself from the love of God, and when you are removed from that love you are left without Grace.

In order to receive that Grace one must make a sacrifice to the Lord. There is only one sacrifice that is sufficient for the Father and that is the Sacrifice on Calvary. To be more crude and morbid, I suppose, the only sacrifice that is sufficient for the Father is the sacrifice of the first born Son. No other sacrifice is sufficient on its own, only when such a sacrifice is done within the sacrifice of the first born Son does that sacrifice earn merit.

However, what does this speak of for those who do spend eternity in Hell? How does God allow such evil? It is a simple answer, one that has put me in harms way before. The reason God allows evil is because a greater good will come out of it. Older men know of this better than I do. I can only see evil right now and hope that I can one day see that greater good.

You may then point out and ask why he would allow for this evil for the greater good and simply destroy all evil? The answer is I don’t truly know (I know why, I don’t know why he allowed this certain way of happening). What I do know is that he does so because of love, which comes from his Perfection. I will explain.

In order to understand fully what I mean by evil and the greater good. We shall look at the Greatest Evil (as one learns distinctions from seeing such things in extremes). The Greatest Evil is dei-cide (the killing of a god). The Crucifixion is dei-cide, plain and simple. MAN killed GOD. The creature killed the creator, that is the greatest evil. However, he allowed it for the Greatest Good. The Greatest Good is the Salvation for all men.

So, to answer your question. No, God does not ensure some eternity in Hell. In his Greatness and Love he gave man free will. And, with that free will man is able to choose to either obey authority or to disobey authority. When man chooses to disobey authority he pulls himself out of the Love of God*. So, God does not send man to Hell, but man freely chooses to reject authority, remove himself or reject grace and to live eternally in Hatred of All That is Good.

  • ‘Love’ of God can also be called the ‘Truth’ of God, which are both names for Jesus Christ.

I am, in Charity,

Chris IV[/quote]

I’m not asking with the intent to change your mind, this is something I would honestly like to know what the Church (or at least you as a follower of the church) have to say about this.

If this question is better meant for Trib then I suppose this is me extending an invitation for him to respond.

Anyway, on to the task at hand…

Freewill. So from what I gather God has a plan for us (following Christ, etc.) and he has given us the freedom to go along with it or not to. If we do, we are rewarded with Heaven, if not, Hell (all else being equal). God’s omniscience is still a problem in this because if God already knows every action we will ever do then to simply ‘choose’ something different would mean God was wrong and God can’t be wrong because he is perfect, yes? The alternative, of course, is that God knows everything we will ever do and we cannot do any different, meaning he his creating us fully accepting of our ultimate fate, wherever that may be.

728

you can choose to use or not use your power.
God can do that too.
hence free will.

If your will is free, then you’re responsible of your own evil acts. And He is not.
maybe you could say He created the possibility of evil. but the possibility of evil is not evil.

it’s same logical problem in both case : actual (power/evil) =/= potential (power/evil).

729

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Ok, I read around this Vandapool guy’s site for like the last 45 minutes. I had a fairly long response to the piece you linked, but decided not to post it because I don’t have the time to challenge anyone and more importantly I felt that old immature prideful me trying to claw His way back out as I found myself licking my chops and cracking my knuckles. What an ignorant mildly entertaining clown LOL! I kept the post in case I change my mind which would take some time in prayer. [/quote]

Here is the entertaining clown again destroying protestantism again with his proof-texting Catholic authority.

http://patrickvandapool.com/2011/07/06/ecclesiology-catholics-prefer-to-start-at-the-beginning/

Don’t get so upset, it is not straw man, Tirib. He is defending against one of the biggest protestant denominations the Church of Christ.[/quote]I will join him in refuting much of what the arminian
church of Christ believes myself Chris. The church, meaning the body of all the elect who are predestined to new life in Christ, has existed from all eternity in the mind of God and was born in time in the 12th of Genesis with the Abrahamic covenant. Paul states this with such clarity and force in his epistles that only strong deception, like catholicism or dispensationalism can overcome it. Once again he chooses “low hanging fruit” which is quite typical of the apologetics of Rome.

I now know why the Lord prevented me from posting my challenge to him about the emergent church. Some personal things have happened since that have made even my participation here difficult.

BTW, this is why I wish we could communicate more directly. I am not even slightly angry. If you had any idea what I was dealing with (and you couldn’t guess) in real life which also does not have me angry you would laugh at your own accusation.

One more thing. I do not consider any arminian denomination to be faithful “protestantism” though I do consider many of their members to be to be true and sometimes VERY strong if theologically inconsistent believers. Destroying the Church of Christ because she has numbers in apostate modern America means nothing. My first “pope” is Abraham (so to speak, don,t go gittin all exercised on me now)
[/quote]

I wish you could step out of yourself one day and look at the ridiculous things you say.
BTW, thought of you yesterday, I was watching ‘The Crucible’ with my mouth agape at how little things have changed…I respectfully ask that you do not send and evil spirit out at me to bite my nipple. That would get me irate.

730

[quote]Cortes wrote:
This is a great write-up, Chris, and I certainly appreciate it, and hope a lot of others do. I already know how your addressee is going to respond, however. I’ll save him the trouble:

This still does not explain how, if God is indeed omniscient, he knew from the beginning of time (so to speak) who would live forever with him and who would perish. How do you square this circle? If God is truly omniscient, then he must in some part be responsible for evil, no? And if he somehow did not know, well then “God” is nothing more than a limited, contingent being, subjecting to shortcomings just as we are.

Of course I am already pretty sure what you are going to reply, as it’s what I already believe, but I am interested in hearing your take on it.

[/quote]

I suppose you can say that God is “responsible” for evil, as a father is “responsible” for his son’s evil. He paid for that “mistake,” that is why our Lord went to that crucifix and was killed, to pay for that mistake.

Not only did he give us free will to stay in his Grace or not, but he paid the highest ransom to bring us back into that Grace.

731

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Anyway, on to the task at hand…

Freewill. So from what I gather God has a plan for us (following Christ, etc.) and he has given us the freedom to go along with it or not to. If we do, we are rewarded with Heaven, if not, Hell (all else being equal). God’s omniscience is still a problem in this because if God already knows every action we will ever do then to simply ‘choose’ something different would mean God was wrong and God can’t be wrong because he is perfect, yes? The alternative, of course, is that God knows everything we will ever do and we cannot do any different, meaning he his creating us fully accepting of our ultimate fate, wherever that may be. [/quote]

I think you’re inadvertently mistaking committing moral evil and tolerating moral evil. God does the latter to allow for a greater good.

The reason God allows this is because he loves his creation. He loves us so much that he allows us to freely choose him or not. And, it is more loving that he created us than not creating us.

732

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I do not consider any arminian denomination to be faithful “protestantism”[/quote]

I consider all those that protest against the Catholic Church to be faithful protestants.

[quote]My first “pope” is Abraham (so to speak, don,t go gittin all exercised on me now)
[/quote]

…So, you’re Jewish? Church is a different structure than the Jewish synagogue. We perform mass in what would be considered a ‘synagogue.’

Church is a corporal body of all believers (militant, suffering, and triumphant), and with Paul making it very clear that this Church has a hierarchical and authoritarian teaching, sanctifying, and governing body made up of a three fold ordained hierarchy with Bishops, Priests, and Deacons. This body also has a Prime Bishop, Peter. Paul calls Cephas the first of the twelve and calls himself, Paul, the last of the Apostles. He proves further that Cephas has primacy and authority from Jesus, alone, is when Paul tells the believers that his authority comes from knowing Cephas.

733

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
Anyway, on to the task at hand…

Freewill. So from what I gather God has a plan for us (following Christ, etc.) and he has given us the freedom to go along with it or not to. If we do, we are rewarded with Heaven, if not, Hell (all else being equal). God’s omniscience is still a problem in this because if God already knows every action we will ever do then to simply ‘choose’ something different would mean God was wrong and God can’t be wrong because he is perfect, yes? The alternative, of course, is that God knows everything we will ever do and we cannot do any different, meaning he his creating us fully accepting of our ultimate fate, wherever that may be. [/quote]

I think you’re inadvertently mistaking committing moral evil and tolerating moral evil. God does the latter to allow for a greater good.

The reason God allows this is because he loves his creation. He loves us so much that he allows us to freely choose him or not. And, it is more loving that he created us than not creating us.[/quote]

This doesn’t address the problem. If we are free to chose then God can not be omnipotent as our choice would make the future a guessing game. Perhaps God could accurately deduce what we will do, but he can’t know for sure so long as we can chose otherwise. On the flip side, if God does know everything we will ever do then it means our actions are completely controlled by cause and effect making our “choice” an illusion.

Simply having the option to chose God doesn’t mean you have the free will to. For example, a leaf-cutter ant will burn to death cutting leaves in the event of a forest fire simply because it is only programed to cut leaves. It absolutely has the option to leave and save itself, but we know it wont. Sure, we are infinitely more complex than an ant, but not compared to God. To God we are about as simple as ants (maybe more, since God is all powerful and all knowing after all). God can say we have the choice to chose him or not, but he already knows if we will or won’t, making our “choice” irrelevant.

It’s rather sadistic of God to create us knowing that by doing so he is ensuring we burn in Hell (since he already knows for sure we will) then to say it’s our fault for not choosing him when he knew full well that was our final destination from the very start.

734

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
This doesn’t address the problem.[/quote]

Actually it does.

That does not make sense. What does our free will have anything to do with God being omnipotent? Are you saying God CANNOT give us free will and be omnipotent? That’s a contradictory statement.

No, but we do have free will. Otherwise it is not a choice to take ourselves out of his Love.

Yes, we are more “complex” because we have an intellect. “Dumb” beasts such as left-cutter ants do not have an intellect, the are driven by instinct. Man has instincts but also has an intellect.

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[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< If God is truly omniscient, then he must in some part be responsible for evil, no? >>>[/quote]No. And I have never said this. He renders all things certain without in any way being responsible for evil and that by eternally divine mechanisms known only to Himself alone.

That IS the scriptural teaching and no pope, council, college of bishops or imagination of fallen man can improve upon it.

No time again.

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[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< If God is truly omniscient, then he must in some part be responsible for evil, no? >>>[/quote]No. And I have never said this. He renders all things certain without in any way being responsible for evil and that by eternally divine mechanisms known only to Himself alone.

That IS the scriptural teaching and no pope, council, college of bishops or imagination of fallen man can improve upon it.

No time again.
[/quote]

Just for the record, I neither believe this nor thought that you did. I was more predicting (correctly) where Tiger Time was trying to take the argument.

I still don’t believe his core question, which is an excellent one, has been addressed.

My understanding is that God, being omniPOTENT, has the POWER to choose that which he knows and also the power to “not know” the choices we will make until we make them. There is some very complex theology behind this that I do not feel comfortable explaining at this point, as I don’t have a strong enough grasp of it yet to act as its representative. But there is a not-too-long summary of the Catholic viewpoint over at newadvent.org:

That is, if you are inclined to really find the answer to your question, and are not just here to stir up shit :wink:

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[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< If God is truly omniscient, then he must in some part be responsible for evil, no? >>>[/quote]No. And I have never said this. He renders all things certain without in any way being responsible for evil and that by eternally divine mechanisms known only to Himself alone.

That IS the scriptural teaching and no pope, council, college of bishops or imagination of fallen man can improve upon it.

No time again.
[/quote]

God has said he will not force our decisions and one of the way to avoid doing so is to not foreknow what we will do. Doesn’t mean he can’t just means he isn’t.
Just for the record, I neither believe this nor thought that you did. I was more predicting (correctly) where Tiger Time was trying to take the argument.

I still don’t believe his core question, which is an excellent one, has been addressed.

My understanding is that God, being omniPOTENT, has the POWER to choose that which he knows and also the power to “not know” the choices we will make until we make them. There is some very complex theology behind this that I do not feel comfortable explaining at this point, as I don’t have a strong enough grasp of it yet to act as its representative. But there is a not-too-long summary of the Catholic viewpoint over at newadvent.org:

That is, if you are inclined to really find the answer to your question, and are not just here to stir up shit ;)[/quote]

It really goes to the simple notion of ‘just because you can, doesn’t mean you do’. He can know everything but he can also choose not to. To say otherwise is to say He is not omnipotent. Jesus could have sinned, he just ‘chose’ not to.

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[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:
This doesn’t address the problem.[/quote]

Actually it does.

That does not make sense. What does our free will have anything to do with God being omnipotent? Are you saying God CANNOT give us free will and be omnipotent? That’s a contradictory statement.

No, but we do have free will. Otherwise it is not a choice to take ourselves out of his Love.

Yes, we are more “complex” because we have an intellect. “Dumb” beasts such as left-cutter ants do not have an intellect, the are driven by instinct. Man has instincts but also has an intellect.[/quote]

You don’t understand the connection between free will and omnipotence? They are contradictory. If our every action is already known since the dawn of time then we can’t have free will as all of our actions have been predestined. If God knows everything we will ever do and think then to chose anything other than what God already knows we will do will be a mistake on God’s part, meaning he won’t be omnipotent.

Intellect is irrelevant. My point was that we are only about as simple as ants compared to God, despite our advantages over ants. You’ve written off my analogy with a non-sequitur. We know every act a leaf cutter ant will make (perhaps not as specifically as God knows about us, but he is omnipotent after all…). If that ant does anything against what we have predicted then we were wrong and cannot be called omnipotent, however, if we do accurately predict everything that ant ever did it would mean that the ants behavior is entirely controlled by cause and effect, not by free will. Just as if God can accurately predict our every move (well, he doesn’t need prediction as he actually knows, but that’s irrelevant) then it means our every move is entirely predicated on cause and effect, not on free will.

An example; I woke up this morning. I had the option to get off on the right side, or the left side. let’s say God looked into the future and saw that I got off on the right side and a few moments later I do, indeed, get off on the right side. Did I have a choice? If I instead got off on the left side, then God would be wrong, therefore, not omnipotent. If I got off on the right side I would be picking the option that I was prophesied to take long before I was even aware of the option, meaning my perception of having “choice” was only an illusion.

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[quote]Cortes wrote:

I still don’t believe his core question, which is an excellent one, has been addressed.

[/quote]

I think Kamui handled it, really.

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[quote]TigerTime wrote:

An example; I woke up this morning. I had the option to get off on the right side, or the left side. let’s say God looked into the future and saw that I got off on the right side and a few moments later I do, indeed, get off on the right side. Did I have a choice?[/quote]

Yes, you did. What changed because the future was known? The choice was still made.