Ask Hosea
The following is from the site gospelway.com. They provide concepts and questions that have intrigued me and hopefully some catholics can answer:
STANDARD OF AUTHORITY
In addition to the Bible, Catholicism also follows tradition and the decrees of the Pope and church councils as religious authority.
"Did God intend that the Bible alone should be the guide to salvation? No, because certain things in the Bible can be misunderstood, and because the Bible does not have everything God taught" - Catechism, p. 51.
"Do we get from the Bible alone all our knowledge and certainty about what God has told us? No, there is also Sacred Tradition â?¦ What is tradition? The Word of God handed on to us by the Apostles in their preaching and by their successors in the church to the present day â?¦ Do you have to believe in tradition? Yes â?¦ we are obliged to accept all the truths contained in the Bible and Traditionâ?¦" - Catechism, pp. 9,10.
"Council â?¦ assemblies of the rulers of the Church legally convoked, for the discussion and decision of ecclesiastical affairs â?¦ The decrees of general councils have no binding authority till confirmed by the Pope â?¦ The infallibility of general councils so confirmed follows from that of the Churchâ?¦" - Dictionary, pp. 227-230.
"Does Jesus require us to follow the Pope in matters of religion? Yes, because obedience and loyalty to the Pope are among the chief requirements of Our Lord's plan for unity â?¦ Can the Pope make an error when teaching religion? Not when he is speaking solemnly (ex cathedra) as head of the church. Then he has that special protection from error which God gives as a spiritual safeguard for all the members of the church" - Catechism, p. 56.
But the Bible teaches:
-
The original apostles received all the truth we need to guide us to eternal life, and they wrote this down in the Scriptures (John 16:13; 2 Pet. 1:3; Acts 20:20,27; Matt. 28:20; I Cor. 14:37; 2 Tim. 3:16,17).
-
The teachings of these inspired writers can be understood by the common people. We do not need official interpreters to understand the word, but we should use the word to check out the teachers! (Mark 7:14; 2 Tim. 3:16,17; John 20:30,31; Acts 17:11; Psa. 119:105)
-
We displease God when we follow tradition or church laws or any human standard as the source of authority for the church (Matt. 15:1-14; Col. 2:8; Gal. 1:6-9; Prov. 14:12; 2 John 9-11; Jer. 10:23).
[quote]But the Bible teaches:
-
The original apostles received all the truth we need to guide us to eternal life, and they wrote this down in the Scriptures (John 16:13; 2 Pet. 1:3; Acts 20:20,27; Matt. 28:20; I Cor. 14:37; 2 Tim. 3:16,17).
-
The teachings of these inspired writers can be understood by the common people. We do not need official interpreters to understand the word, but we should use the word to check out the teachers! (Mark 7:14; 2 Tim. 3:16,17; John 20:30,31; Acts 17:11; Psa. 119:105)
-
We displease God when we follow tradition or church laws or any human standard as the source of authority for the church (Matt. 15:1-14; Col. 2:8; Gal. 1:6-9; Prov. 14:12; 2 John 9-11; Jer. 10:23). [/quote]
Nothing the Catholic Church teaches contradicts anything in the Bible. About those verses:
-
The Bible was not put together for quite some time after the Resurrection.
-
Which is why there are over 30,000 “Prostant” denominations, each with differing beliefs.
-
The source of authority for the Catholic Church is what Jesus taught the apostles.
[quote]forbes wrote:
But the Bible teaches:
- The original apostles received all the truth we need to guide us to eternal life, and they wrote this down in the Scriptures (John 16:13; 2 Pet. 1:3; Acts 20:20,27; Matt. 28:20; I Cor. 14:37; 2 Tim. 3:16,17).[/quote]
Then St. John (one of Jesus’ best friends) was a heretic and the Bible has a mistake in it. John 21:25 says, “But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.”
Then St. Peter is a heretic, because he says in 2 Ptr. chap. iii. 16 that Paul is, “…also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.” And, St. Peter is even more of a heretic when he shows us in 2 Ptr. chap. i. 20, “that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.” He tells us that instead of interpreting the Bible privately we need a guide, St. Luke is a heretic when he tells us this in Acts chap. viii. 27-31 “And rising up, he went. And behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch, of great authority under Candace the queen of the Ethiopians, who had charge over all her treasures, had come to Jerusalem to adore. 28 And he was returning, sitting in his chariot and reading Isaiah the prophet. 29 And the Spirit said to Philip: Go near and join yourself to this chariot. 30 And Philip running thither, heard him reading the prophet Isaias. And he said: Do you think that you understand what you read? 31 Who said: And how can I, unless some man show me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.”
A carpenter learns his trade from a master, a blacksmith learns his trade from a master, a engineer learns his trade from a master, but Biblical scholars do not need a master to teach them their trade?
[quote]
3. We displease God when we follow tradition or church laws or any human standard as the source of authority for the church (Matt. 15:1-14; Col. 2:8; Gal. 1:6-9; Prov. 14:12; 2 John 9-11; Jer. 10:23). [/quote]
G-d is displeased when we follow tradition that is contrary to His law (Matt chap. xv. 2), which His is also the law of the Church since Jesus established the Church, who is guided by the Spirit of the truth. G-d is not displeased with traditions, otherwise St. Paul is a heretic when he says, “I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have spoke them to you” (1 Cor. chap. xi. 2). As well, Jesus himself would be a heretic let’s suppose that Jesus taught the Apostles everything they knew. Only 10% of the NT is in the OT, they followed the oral teachings and traditions of Jesus Christ and supplemented his teaching with OT teachings. This is vital because to deny oral tradition is to deny in small part that Jesus is a Jew. Other oral tradition (1 Thess. 2:13, 2Thess.2:15, 2Tim.2:2)
Let me ask you a question, do you believe that no man can forgive sins and that only G-d can?
Still going strong.
@ OKLAHOMASTATE
-
The NT was written at most 100 years after Christ’s resurrection, AND through the guidance of the Spirit AND even prior to that the apostles wrote down events so they wouldn’t forget it when they were actually writing the NT.
-
Now for a few facts and stats from the actual source: World Christian Encyclopedia by Barrett, Kurian, Johnson (Oxford Univ Press, 2nd edition, 2001).
The source does refer to 33000+ total “Christian” denominations, but it defines the word “denomination” as an organized Christian group within a specific country:
â??Denominations. A denomination is defined in this Encyclopedia as an organized aggregate of worship centers or congregations of similar ecclesiastical tradition within a specific country; i.e. as an organized Christian church or tradition or religious group or community of believers, within a specific country, whose component congregations and members are called by the same denominational name in different areas, regarding themselves as one autonomous Christian church distinct from other denominations, churches and traditions. As defined here, world Christianity consists of 6 major ecclesiastico-cultural blocs, divided into 300 major ecclesiastical traditions, composed of over 33,000 distinct denominations in 238 countries, these denominations themselves being composed of over 3,400,000 worship centers, churches or congregations.â??
(Barrett et al, volume 1, page 16, Table 1-5, emphasis added)
So we have, according to Barrett’s Encyclopedia:
* a denomination is defined as existing within a specific country
* there are 33,000+ total of these "Christian denominations" in 238 total countries
These 33,000 are subdivided into “6 major ecclesiastico-cultural mega-blocs”, and ordering them by denomination size we have (I am rounding up or down slightly for convenience, using year 2000 figures) :
* Independents (about 22000)
* Protestants (about 9000)
* "Marginals" (about 1600)
* Orthodox (781)
* Roman Catholics (242)
* Anglicans (168)
So the 33,000 number is from the total of these 6 mega-blocs:
22000 + 9000 + 1600 + 781 + 242 + 168 = 33,000+
The 30’000 denominations refers to Christianity as a total, NOT just protestants. And Catholics have divisions as well so don’t use double standards please.
- I’m not really understanding this point.
@ Brother Chris:
-
That verse is referring to the miracles Jesus did. Not necessarily teachings. And I will agree that Christ probably taught things that are not in the Bible, but they would be minor things that did not contradict scripture like purgatory, prayer to Mary and the saints (scripture says we are ALL saints) for intercession and Mass.
-
Im not saying scripture is easy to read. That is why it tells us to STUDY it. And in regards to private interpretation, Im not saying that we are not to consult the guidance of other believers. Of course we are, for they may know something I don’t. But its not how the Catholics do it, where someone tells you what it means and thats that.
-
Can Man Forgive Sins?
By Wayne Jackson
â??Does any man have the right to forgive sins? Some suggest that Jesus granted this authority to the apostles, and then, through them, to others (see John 20:23). Can you explain this passage?â??
Shortly before His ascension, Jesus said to his apostles: â??whose soever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retainedâ?? (John 20:23). The Roman Catholic Church teaches that Christ was actually granting to the apostles the authority to forgive sins, and that the apostles passed on to their successors (supposedly the Roman priesthood) the same license to pardon sin.
This position is false. Consider the following points.
-
No interpretation is to be placed upon a difficult and obscure passage (such as this one) that would place it in direct conflict with numerous other clear texts. The fact is, though all Christians are to forgive one another, i.e., have a forgiving disposition (Eph. 4:32), ultimately, only God can bestow absolute pardon (cf. Psa. 130:4; Isa. 43:25; Dan. 9:9; Mic. 7:18; Acts 8:22). The Lord did not grant that right to the apostles or anyone else.
-
There is a biblical idiom whereby one sometimes is said to actually do what he is merely authorized to declare. Note:
- Pharaohâ??s butler said regarding Joseph, â??. . . me he [Joseph] restored unto mine office, and him [the baker] he hangedâ?? (Gen. 41:13). Joseph did not actually restore the butler to his office, nor did he personally hang the baker. He merely announced, by prophetic insight, what the fate of these men would be.
- Did God appoint Jeremiah to actually destroy and overthrow kingdoms (Jer. 1:10), or merely to declare their destiny? The answer should be obvious. See also Ezekiel 43:3.
-
The Greek tenses of John 20:23 make it clear that the apostles were authorized only to announce the terms of forgiveness, and that upon the basis of Godâ??s previous appointment. Literally, the text suggests: â??Those whose sins you forgive, have already been forgiven; those whose sins you do not forgive, have not already been forgiven.â?? The first verbs in the two clauses are aorist tense forms, while the second verbs are in the perfect tense. The perfect tense verbs imply an abiding state which commenced before the action of the aorists. In other words, the apostles (and others since that time) were only authorized to declare forgiveness consistent with what the Lord had already determined. In a comprehensive treatment of this passage, noted Greek scholar J.R. Mantey pointed out that the Greek â??fathersâ?? never quoted this passage in support of the concept of absolution (see Journal of Biblical Literature, 58, 1939, pp. 243-249). For further comment, see: Boyce Blackwelder, Light from the Greek New Testament, Anderson, In: Warner, 1958, pp. 80-81.
-
Finally, this conclusion is confirmed by the fact that the apostles, on the day of Pentecost, in harmony with the Spiritâ??s guidance, did not personally forgive the sins of anyone; rather, they merely announced the conditions of pardon to which men and women were amenable. To believers who sincerely inquired: â??. . . what shall we do?â??, Peter responded, "Repent ye, and be immersed every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins. . . " (Acts 2:37-38). Subsequently the reader is informed that: "They then that received his word were immersed. . . " (41). Hence, we conclude, upon the basis of this testimony, that by means of that word, they received the forgiveness of their sins.
John 20:23 does not sanction the modern Catholic clergy procedure of granting â??absolutionâ?? from sin.
[quote]forbes wrote:
The 30’000 denominations refers to Christianity as a total, NOT just protestants. And Catholics have divisions as well so don’t use double standards please.
[/quote]
The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church hold true to one faith, they hold that anyone that does not hold to that faith are NOT FAITHFUL and are heretics, blasphemers. However, compared to the Protestant Churches when there is division it is okay sometimes I have seen people rejoice in their “doctrinal differences”, because private interpretation is allowed. I will say within the data, it is even greater than 33,000 Protestant Churches, because I have seen sitting divisions (okay’d by the preacher) within “individual” churches. Where one group of people will hold to one set of doctrine, another set will hold to another set of doctrine, and within those groups certain people will only agree partially with the whole group.
So, it is almost as if those people are a church to themselves.
[quote]forbes wrote:
John 20:23 does not sanction the modern Catholic clergy procedure of granting ‘absolution’ from sin.
[/quote]
Clergy does no such thing. God only forgives and grants absolution. This is done through the mediator of the clergy by power of the Holy Spirit. Man cannot and does not grant absolution, the formalization of the medium by way of the sacrament brings the mercy of God to the people, but does not do anything that God does not allow. If you heard the absolution prayer, it’s very clear.
Jesus gave the apostles the power to bring God’s mercy to the people, he did not give them, themselves the power to forgive sins.
Sorry for answering. I know it was for BC, but I thought I’d throw in my unwelcomed $.02
[quote]forbes wrote:
@ Brother Chris:
- That verse is referring to the miracles Jesus did. Not necessarily teachings. And I will agree that Christ probably taught things that are not in the Bible, but they would be minor things that did not contradict scripture like purgatory, prayer to Mary and the saints (scripture says we are ALL saints) for intercession and Mass.
[/quote]
What authority do you have to interpret that this verse is about miracles and not about teachings? Where is your name in the Bible that we shall know who are a true interpreter of the Bible? Does the Bible not say that private interpretation is heresy?
Purgatory is in the Bible, how can something in the Bible contradict itself? Praying to Mary and the Saints are in the Bible, how can something in the Bible contradict itself? The Mass is in the Bible how can something in the Bible contradict itself?
No it is not easy to read, St. Luke already told us that we need a guide to teach us, this was him dealing with an Ethiopian Jewish Minister for the Queen of Ethiopia, this was a smart man! And, he needed a guide to know the scriptures? Yet, you presume with no formal training to understand such a complex thing as the Word of G-d? Does a carpenter know his trade before he is taught? No! Neither does one know how to interpret Scripture without knowing his trade. Learn the trade or stop trying.
Well, then you’re on the side of Scribes which Jesus was against. Mark 2:1-12, “And there were some of the scribes sitting there and thinking in their hearts: Why does this man speak thus? He blasphemes. Who can forgive sins, but God only?”
I will not be drawn completely into a debate you have staged. You asked questions knowing what you thought were the right answer, but hoped that you could cause controversy.
I will make a few points, however.
-
The Bible, as accepted by most protestant chruches, wasn’t canonized until almost 400 A.D. That is a lot of time to not have a canonized bible. You cannot say that this was just a process and the original text was written down much earlier because, just like any story, people add additional information to make it more appealing. How many people did Jesus feed with the fish and loaves? Depending on which Gospel you look at, you will get a different answer.
-
and 3. The Catholic Church does not follow human laws or interpretations. It follows the laws of God. As stated numerous times above, Jesus established the Church and gave the “keys” to Peter, the first Pope. Why Jesus mistaken when he told Peter whatever Peter forgave on earth was forgiven in Heaven, and whatever Peter bound on earth was bound in Heaven? Accordingly, the Church is the guiding light that aids in reading the Bible. There is a verse in the Bible that says money solves all problems. The preceding verse gives caution to a kingdom whose king believes that money solves all problems. But if only the first verse is read out of context, it contradicts many teachings of Jesus. That is why we need a Divine Authority to aid in the interpretation. Jesus gave that to us in the Church.
The problem many protestants have with the Catholic Church is that they try and impose their structure on the Church. In other words, they try to say that the Pope, Bishop, Priest, etc. are acting as a man during Reconciliation, the Celebration of the Eucharist, etc. The Bible makes it clear that Jesus is working through these individuals during the Sacraments. Thus, we are not forgiven by a man, but by Jesus himself. Jesus uses the Priest, etc. as His vessel. Similarly, in official interpretations of the Bible and Church doctrine, Jesus is proclaiming his will through a man.
Finally, I would not accept any book on Christian religions that does not understand the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. There is no such thing as “THE” Roman Catholic Church. There are Catholics that participate in the “Roman Rite.” In Catholic parlance, this is shortened to a Roman Catholic Church. Other rites include the Byzantine Rite.
@ Pat
Of course your input is welcomed! These questions are for Catholics so any Catholic is more than welcome to share their views! Again, the whole point to this thread was to learn about Catholicism (though we do argue sometimes 
)
I will address some things later but Im a bit busy.
@ McG76
Before I leave to attend to business, I just wanted to say that I don’t want to cause controversy. I want to learn, and yes, for me the best way to learn is through debate by asking and probing for answers.
Just a thought for ya:
Why did the Catholic church not accept the apocrypha until the 1500’s?
[quote]forbes wrote:
@ McG76
Before I leave to attend to business, I just wanted to say that I don’t want to cause controversy. I want to learn, and yes, for me the best way to learn is through debate by asking and probing for answers.
Just a thought for ya:
Why did the Catholic church not accept the apocrypha until the 1500’s?[/quote]
The Catholic Church has never accepted the apocrypha. The Catholic Church accepted the Deuterocanonical. The Deuterocanonical books have been part of the Catholic bible since 382 A.D. The Council of Trent confirmed their inclusion in the mid 1500s. Pleae read: Catholic Magazines & Religious Articles | Catholic Answers
I don’t mind a debate. I don’t like a setup. You didn’t pose your questions as here are things I disagree about. You said here are things I read on another website and would like some input. You didn’t want input. You wanted a debate.
Stated,
“…What authority do you have to interpret…St. Luke already told us that we need a guide to teach us, this was him dealing with an Ethiopian Jewish Minister for the Queen of Ethiopia, this was a smart man! And, he needed a guide to know the scriptures? Yet, you presume with no formal training to understand such a complex thing as the Word of G-d?..”
By “what authority,” by the authority of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, “Howbeit when he, the (Holy) Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you” (Jn. 16:13-15).
The work of the Holy Spirit is not only directed toward the unsaved (Jn. 16:7-8) but also operates in believers in order to instruct, teach, correct, and guide them into truth.
The important word in verse 13 is hodegesei (“will guide”). It is rendered by “lead” and “guide.” In the Greek Septuagint (the O.T.), the word is also translated “instruct,” “teach,” and “conduct.” The Holy Spirit guides us along the path and points out the truth of the Word by His teaching and counseling. The Greek preposition eis indicates a relationship movement toward all truth.
The word “show” is the verb which indicates the function of the Holy Spirit in relation to the believer. The Holy Spirit does not limit himself to inspiration, for He illuminates what He has inspired, “all truth.”
The Holy Spirit takes “out of” Christ (Gk. ek tou emou) the necessary truths to help the believer in his time of need.
When the Holy Spirit shows to the believer the things of Christ, He is also disclosing the things of the Father. Such perfect harmony exist between the Holy Three that what is said of one can be said of the other two. Jesus made it plain that the Holy Spirit enlightens the believer, in that the Spirit of Truth leads the believer toward a fulness of the truth.
[quote]blacksheep wrote:
Stated,
“…What authority do you have to interpret…St. Luke already told us that we need a guide to teach us, this was him dealing with an Ethiopian Jewish Minister for the Queen of Ethiopia, this was a smart man! And, he needed a guide to know the scriptures? Yet, you presume with no formal training to understand such a complex thing as the Word of G-d?..”
By “what authority,” by the authority of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, “Howbeit when he, the (Holy) Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you” (Jn. 16:13-15).
The work of the Holy Spirit is not only directed toward the unsaved (Jn. 16:7-8) but also operates in believers in order to instruct, teach, correct, and guide them into truth.
The important word in verse 13 is hodegesei (“will guide”). It is rendered by “lead” and “guide.” In the Greek Septuagint (the O.T.), the word is also translated “instruct,” “teach,” and “conduct.” The Holy Spirit guides us along the path and points out the truth of the Word by His teaching and counseling. The Greek preposition eis indicates a relationship movement toward all truth.
The word “show” is the verb which indicates the function of the Holy Spirit in relation to the believer. The Holy Spirit does not limit himself to inspiration, for He illuminates what He has inspired, “all truth.”
The Holy Spirit takes “out of” Christ (Gk. ek tou emou) the necessary truths to help the believer in his time of need.
When the Holy Spirit shows to the believer the things of Christ, He is also disclosing the things of the Father. Such perfect harmony exist between the Holy Three that what is said of one can be said of the other two. Jesus made it plain that the Holy Spirit enlightens the believer, in that the Spirit of Truth leads the believer toward a fulness of the truth. [/quote]
Then how can anyone’s interpretation be wrong? Are all Christian religions “right” because they interpreted the Bible as the Holy Spirit instructed them to? If a mother murders her children because of her interpretation of scripture (Houston lady did this), is she justified? Clearly there are some interpretations that are wrong. How do you know which ones are wrong and which ones are correct? Is it just your gut feeling?
The Catholic teaching is exactly as you state, however. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one. The Holy Spirit comes into the fathers of the Church and instructs them infalliable. As Catholics, you can verify these teachings because they are Biblically based and subject to Apostolic tradition.
A lay person can and should interpreted the Bible by being a vessel for Christ/Holy Spirit. But if these interpretations go against Catholic Doctrine they are incorrect. In other words, the Church is the check against false prophets.
[quote]blacksheep wrote:
Stated,
“…What authority do you have to interpret…St. Luke already told us that we need a guide to teach us, this was him dealing with an Ethiopian Jewish Minister for the Queen of Ethiopia, this was a smart man! And, he needed a guide to know the scriptures? Yet, you presume with no formal training to understand such a complex thing as the Word of G-d?..”
By “what authority,” by the authority of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, “Howbeit when he, the (Holy) Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you” (Jn. 16:13-15).
The work of the Holy Spirit is not only directed toward the unsaved (Jn. 16:7-8) but also operates in believers in order to instruct, teach, correct, and guide them into truth.
The important word in verse 13 is hodegesei (“will guide”). It is rendered by “lead” and “guide.” In the Greek Septuagint (the O.T.), the word is also translated “instruct,” “teach,” and “conduct.” The Holy Spirit guides us along the path and points out the truth of the Word by His teaching and counseling. The Greek preposition eis indicates a relationship movement toward all truth.
The word “show” is the verb which indicates the function of the Holy Spirit in relation to the believer. The Holy Spirit does not limit himself to inspiration, for He illuminates what He has inspired, “all truth.”
The Holy Spirit takes “out of” Christ (Gk. ek tou emou) the necessary truths to help the believer in his time of need.
When the Holy Spirit shows to the believer the things of Christ, He is also disclosing the things of the Father. Such perfect harmony exist between the Holy Three that what is said of one can be said of the other two. Jesus made it plain that the Holy Spirit enlightens the believer, in that the Spirit of Truth leads the believer toward a fulness of the truth. [/quote]
St. John is talking to those inside the Church, those with “Fathers” those with teachers, and priests, &c. The presumption is that he is talking to those inside the Church. The Holy Ghost is with the Church, you have to be with the Church to be guided by the Spirit of Truth. How are you with the Church, by believing the faith of the Church Jesus built on Peter, who was in the body of Christ, from His side on Calvary.
Repentance, repentance, repentance - Fatima
Dogmas and Doctrines do not create or make up parts of the faith as Catholics, they confirm what we believe.
Ever have someone say something about you that was false, or ever believe differently than what you taught and you corrected them by confirming what is actually true? That is what councils and dogmas do, they confirm what has been known as truth from the beginning.
Why did we confirm in the Council of Trent the DC books in the OT? Because of heresy. People had it wrong, we told them they were committing heresy, that those seven books were not to be taken out of the Bible, we reaffirmed the canon of the Bible in the 1500’s, we did it first in the 4th century.
There is a idiom in the Catholic Church, the Church loves when people get things wrong, because it allows her to teach the truth. Someone says Mary wasn’t a virgin, allows us to teach and affirm that she is. Someone says Jesus wasn’t man, allows us to teach he was a man. So, there is a set of beliefs we hold that may or may not be confirmed, affirmed, or reaffirmed in council through dogma or doctrine. The doctrines and dogmas just explain it officially, to show the people that this is the truth, you cannot disagree with this or you are in heresy.
“if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch” - Jesus Christ
[quote]blacksheep wrote:
“if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch” - Jesus Christ[/quote]
Good thing the Church’s leaders have the Holy Ghost guiding them.