Catholic Q & A

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
261

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:
The 30’000 denominations refers to Christianity as a total, NOT just protestants. And Catholics have divisions as well so don’t use double standards please.
[/quote]

The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church hold true to one faith, they hold that anyone that does not hold to that faith are NOT FAITHFUL and are heretics, blasphemers. However, compared to the Protestant Churches when there is division it is okay sometimes I have seen people rejoice in their “doctrinal differences”, because private interpretation is allowed. I will say within the data, it is even greater than 33,000 Protestant Churches, because I have seen sitting divisions (okay’d by the preacher) within “individual” churches. Where one group of people will hold to one set of doctrine, another set will hold to another set of doctrine, and within those groups certain people will only agree partially with the whole group.

So, it is almost as if those people are a church to themselves. [/quote]

You’re correct in that it is a shame there are so many differences between believers, which causes such heated division and makes unbelievers even more doubtful of Christianity.

That is why I am a “non-denominational” Christian. When someone asks what I am, I say Christian. When they ask what denomination I say “what denomination? There’s denominations?”

There are things that I agree with from many denominations, and many I disagree with. I agree and disagree with the Catholic church, Calvinists, Lutherans, Orthodox, Pentacostals etc.

For me what it comes down to is: Is it Biblical?

If it is, I will agree.

262

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:
John 20:23 does not sanction the modern Catholic clergy procedure of granting ‘absolution’ from sin.
[/quote]

Clergy does no such thing. God only forgives and grants absolution. This is done through the mediator of the clergy by power of the Holy Spirit. Man cannot and does not grant absolution, the formalization of the medium by way of the sacrament brings the mercy of God to the people, but does not do anything that God does not allow. If you heard the absolution prayer, it’s very clear.
Jesus gave the apostles the power to bring God’s mercy to the people, he did not give them, themselves the power to forgive sins.

Sorry for answering. I know it was for BC, but I thought I’d throw in my unwelcomed $.02[/quote]

There is only one mediator, the Man Jesus Christ. If Jesus is the only mediator between God and man, AND he did not give the apostles authority to forgive sins, then we are only to seek forgiveness from God by going to him directly.

The Bible does talk about confessing sins to one another, but not for forgiveness purposes, but for group support. If I have a struggle with alcohol then it would be a good idea to confess this to my fellow brothers and sisters of the Church so that they can support me.

263

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:
@ Brother Chris:

  1. That verse is referring to the miracles Jesus did. Not necessarily teachings. And I will agree that Christ probably taught things that are not in the Bible, but they would be minor things that did not contradict scripture like purgatory, prayer to Mary and the saints (scripture says we are ALL saints) for intercession and Mass.
    [/quote]

What authority do you have to interpret that this verse is about miracles and not about teachings? Where is your name in the Bible that we shall know who are a true interpreter of the Bible? Does the Bible not say that private interpretation is heresy?

Purgatory is in the Bible, how can something in the Bible contradict itself? Praying to Mary and the Saints are in the Bible, how can something in the Bible contradict itself? The Mass is in the Bible how can something in the Bible contradict itself?

No it is not easy to read, St. Luke already told us that we need a guide to teach us, this was him dealing with an Ethiopian Jewish Minister for the Queen of Ethiopia, this was a smart man! And, he needed a guide to know the scriptures? Yet, you presume with no formal training to understand such a complex thing as the Word of G-d? Does a carpenter know his trade before he is taught? No! Neither does one know how to interpret Scripture without knowing his trade. Learn the trade or stop trying.

Well, then you’re on the side of Scribes which Jesus was against. Mark 2:1-12, “And there were some of the scribes sitting there and thinking in their hearts: Why does this man speak thus? He blasphemes. Who can forgive sins, but God only?”[/quote]

  1. Private interpretation implies that I read something from the Bible and come to a conclusion all by myself as to what it means. No I don’t do that. I read it, go to sources who have more understanding for it, look at their Biblical reasoning as to what it means, observe the opposing side and their Biblical reasoning (these reasoning’s also include historical aspects such as customs, language, who was being addressed etc).

Then I go and read it again and through prayer I ask that the Lord opens my mind to help me understand. In time I come to a conclusion.

  1. We agree then. I said scripture is NOT easy to read and so did you. We are not in disagreement.

  2. How am I on the side of the scribes? They didn’t realize that Jesus was God in the flesh. That is why Jesus could forgive sins is because he was God.

264

[quote]McG78 wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:
@ McG76

Before I leave to attend to business, I just wanted to say that I don’t want to cause controversy. I want to learn, and yes, for me the best way to learn is through debate by asking and probing for answers.

Just a thought for ya:

Why did the Catholic church not accept the apocrypha until the 1500’s?[/quote]

The Catholic Church has never accepted the apocrypha. The Catholic Church accepted the Deuterocanonical. The Deuterocanonical books have been part of the Catholic bible since 382 A.D. The Council of Trent confirmed their inclusion in the mid 1500s. Pleae read: Catholic Magazines & Religious Articles | Catholic Answers

I don’t mind a debate. I don’t like a setup. You didn’t pose your questions as here are things I disagree about. You said here are things I read on another website and would like some input. You didn’t want input. You wanted a debate.[/quote]

I never set you or anyone up. I even stated above: " I want to learn, and yes, for me the best way to learn is through debate by asking and probing for answers."

I realize that debated can get heated (its natural) but that is how I learn the best because we can go deeper into the hearts and minds of those who believe and their reasoning behind it.

265

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]blacksheep wrote:
“if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch” - Jesus Christ[/quote]

Good thing the Church’s leaders have the Holy Ghost guiding them.[/quote]

Does not the Holy Ghost offer guidance to all?

266

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:
The 30’000 denominations refers to Christianity as a total, NOT just protestants. And Catholics have divisions as well so don’t use double standards please.
[/quote]

The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church hold true to one faith, they hold that anyone that does not hold to that faith are NOT FAITHFUL and are heretics, blasphemers. However, compared to the Protestant Churches when there is division it is okay sometimes I have seen people rejoice in their “doctrinal differences”, because private interpretation is allowed. I will say within the data, it is even greater than 33,000 Protestant Churches, because I have seen sitting divisions (okay’d by the preacher) within “individual” churches. Where one group of people will hold to one set of doctrine, another set will hold to another set of doctrine, and within those groups certain people will only agree partially with the whole group.

So, it is almost as if those people are a church to themselves. [/quote]

You’re correct in that it is a shame there are so many differences between believers, which causes such heated division and makes unbelievers even more doubtful of Christianity.

That is why I am a “non-denominational” Christian. When someone asks what I am, I say Christian. When they ask what denomination I say “what denomination? There’s denominations?”

There are things that I agree with from many denominations, and many I disagree with. I agree and disagree with the Catholic church, Calvinists, Lutherans, Orthodox, Pentacostals etc.

For me what it comes down to is: Is it Biblical?

If it is, I will agree.[/quote]

Catholic Church wrote the Bible, Catholic Church is the Church out of the side of Jesus.

267

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:
@ Brother Chris:

  1. That verse is referring to the miracles Jesus did. Not necessarily teachings. And I will agree that Christ probably taught things that are not in the Bible, but they would be minor things that did not contradict scripture like purgatory, prayer to Mary and the saints (scripture says we are ALL saints) for intercession and Mass.
    [/quote]

What authority do you have to interpret that this verse is about miracles and not about teachings? Where is your name in the Bible that we shall know who are a true interpreter of the Bible? Does the Bible not say that private interpretation is heresy?

Purgatory is in the Bible, how can something in the Bible contradict itself? Praying to Mary and the Saints are in the Bible, how can something in the Bible contradict itself? The Mass is in the Bible how can something in the Bible contradict itself?

No it is not easy to read, St. Luke already told us that we need a guide to teach us, this was him dealing with an Ethiopian Jewish Minister for the Queen of Ethiopia, this was a smart man! And, he needed a guide to know the scriptures? Yet, you presume with no formal training to understand such a complex thing as the Word of G-d? Does a carpenter know his trade before he is taught? No! Neither does one know how to interpret Scripture without knowing his trade. Learn the trade or stop trying.

Well, then you’re on the side of Scribes which Jesus was against. Mark 2:1-12, “And there were some of the scribes sitting there and thinking in their hearts: Why does this man speak thus? He blasphemes. Who can forgive sins, but God only?”[/quote]

  1. Private interpretation implies that I read something from the Bible and come to a conclusion all by myself as to what it means. No I don’t do that. I read it, go to sources who have more understanding for it, look at their Biblical reasoning as to what it means, observe the opposing side and their Biblical reasoning (these reasoning’s also include historical aspects such as customs, language, who was being addressed etc).

Then I go and read it again and through prayer I ask that the Lord opens my mind to help me understand. In time I come to a conclusion.
[/quote]

So, an indirect private interpretation?

[quote]

  1. We agree then. I said scripture is NOT easy to read and so did you. We are not in disagreement.

  2. How am I on the side of the scribes? They didn’t realize that Jesus was God in the flesh. That is why Jesus could forgive sins is because he was God. [/quote]

He was also man, then he told them that the Apostles would go out and forgive sins as he had. Not on their own power, but the Lord’s, but priests still have the ability to forgive sins being in Christ.

268

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]blacksheep wrote:
“if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch” - Jesus Christ[/quote]

Good thing the Church’s leaders have the Holy Ghost guiding them.[/quote]

Does not the Holy Ghost offer guidance to all?[/quote]

No.

269

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:
The 30’000 denominations refers to Christianity as a total, NOT just protestants. And Catholics have divisions as well so don’t use double standards please.
[/quote]

The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church hold true to one faith, they hold that anyone that does not hold to that faith are NOT FAITHFUL and are heretics, blasphemers. However, compared to the Protestant Churches when there is division it is okay sometimes I have seen people rejoice in their “doctrinal differences”, because private interpretation is allowed. I will say within the data, it is even greater than 33,000 Protestant Churches, because I have seen sitting divisions (okay’d by the preacher) within “individual” churches. Where one group of people will hold to one set of doctrine, another set will hold to another set of doctrine, and within those groups certain people will only agree partially with the whole group.

So, it is almost as if those people are a church to themselves. [/quote]

You’re correct in that it is a shame there are so many differences between believers, which causes such heated division and makes unbelievers even more doubtful of Christianity.

That is why I am a “non-denominational” Christian. When someone asks what I am, I say Christian. When they ask what denomination I say “what denomination? There’s denominations?”

There are things that I agree with from many denominations, and many I disagree with. I agree and disagree with the Catholic church, Calvinists, Lutherans, Orthodox, Pentacostals etc.

For me what it comes down to is: Is it Biblical?

If it is, I will agree.[/quote]

Catholic Church wrote the Bible, Catholic Church is the Church out of the side of Jesus.[/quote]

Just out of curiosity (genuine curiosity):

If the Catholic Church was and is the one and only Church instituted by Christ himself and is the only true Christian “denomination”, then why call yourself Catholic and not just simply “Christian” since the early Christians were called…Christian.

270

@ BC:

  1. I refuted on the previous page (from an article online, before I get blamed for plagiarism) that the scriptures that You use to teach that man can forgive sin (through God’s authority) is false.

  2. What is your scriptural basis for the Holy Spirit not guiding believers into truth?

271

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:
The 30’000 denominations refers to Christianity as a total, NOT just protestants. And Catholics have divisions as well so don’t use double standards please.
[/quote]

The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church hold true to one faith, they hold that anyone that does not hold to that faith are NOT FAITHFUL and are heretics, blasphemers. However, compared to the Protestant Churches when there is division it is okay sometimes I have seen people rejoice in their “doctrinal differences”, because private interpretation is allowed. I will say within the data, it is even greater than 33,000 Protestant Churches, because I have seen sitting divisions (okay’d by the preacher) within “individual” churches. Where one group of people will hold to one set of doctrine, another set will hold to another set of doctrine, and within those groups certain people will only agree partially with the whole group.

So, it is almost as if those people are a church to themselves. [/quote]

You’re correct in that it is a shame there are so many differences between believers, which causes such heated division and makes unbelievers even more doubtful of Christianity.

That is why I am a “non-denominational” Christian. When someone asks what I am, I say Christian. When they ask what denomination I say “what denomination? There’s denominations?”

There are things that I agree with from many denominations, and many I disagree with. I agree and disagree with the Catholic church, Calvinists, Lutherans, Orthodox, Pentacostals etc.

For me what it comes down to is: Is it Biblical?

If it is, I will agree.[/quote]

Catholic Church wrote the Bible, Catholic Church is the Church out of the side of Jesus.[/quote]

Just out of curiosity (genuine curiosity):

If the Catholic Church was and is the one and only Church instituted by Christ himself and is the only true Christian “denomination”, then why call yourself Catholic and not just simply “Christian” since the early Christians were called…Christian.[/quote]

The early Christians were called Hellenistic Jews, we didn’t want to be associated with the other Jews (as they were Nationalist and exclusionary with Judaism) so we took Christian (or little messiahs in Greek), and by 110 A.D. we see written down the church being called the Catholic church, by St. Ignatius of Antioch, Bishop of Antioch, when he tells the faithful to stick to the local Bishop and heed his teachings. Most stuck with Christians until the 1500’s when we started being called Catholics/Papists/&c. by Protestants.

As well, the church has never used the name Roman Catholic Church for herself. It is a Protestant term. There is the Latin Rite and Eastern Rites, but the Church itself is properly called Catholic Church. This is why I got upset a month ago when people kept calling me Roman Catholic, since I am not Roman nor have I ever been to Rome.

272

[quote]forbes wrote:
@ BC:

  1. I refuted on the previous page (from an article online, before I get blamed for plagiarism) that the scriptures that You use to teach that man can forgive sin (through God’s authority) is false.
    [/quote]

I don’t remember you refuting anything. Maybe you can point me to this attempt at refuting scripture.

[quote]
2) What is your scriptural basis for the Holy Spirit not guiding believers into truth?[/quote]

What is your scriptural basis that it has to be stated in the Scriptures? What about those believers in the South that used the Bible to say slavery was okay? What about that minister in Florida who convinced two people to kill abortion doctors from the Bible? All of them believed, all weren’t in the truth.

273

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:
John 20:23 does not sanction the modern Catholic clergy procedure of granting ‘absolution’ from sin.
[/quote]

Clergy does no such thing. God only forgives and grants absolution. This is done through the mediator of the clergy by power of the Holy Spirit. Man cannot and does not grant absolution, the formalization of the medium by way of the sacrament brings the mercy of God to the people, but does not do anything that God does not allow. If you heard the absolution prayer, it’s very clear.
Jesus gave the apostles the power to bring God’s mercy to the people, he did not give them, themselves the power to forgive sins.

Sorry for answering. I know it was for BC, but I thought I’d throw in my unwelcomed $.02[/quote]

There is only one mediator, the Man Jesus Christ. If Jesus is the only mediator between God and man, AND he did not give the apostles authority to forgive sins, then we are only to seek forgiveness from God by going to him directly.

The Bible does talk about confessing sins to one another, but not for forgiveness purposes, but for group support. If I have a struggle with alcohol then it would be a good idea to confess this to my fellow brothers and sisters of the Church so that they can support me. [/quote]

I think it would be an extraordinary bad idea to confess your deepest weaknesses to you fellow parishioners. That will inevitably spread around like wild fire. The church clergy is flatly forbidden to reveal anybody’s confession for any reason unto death. Even if it’s murder the preist or bishop must go to jail rather than reveal a confession. To the point where even if said murderer did not confess the murder, the priest cannot tell the police that either. It is the most protected sacrament.
Secondly, it is the Holy Spirit through the priest or bishop from where absolution is received. They can do nothing on their own, only God can forgive sins against him. But John 20:20-23 clearly states that he is sending them has he was sent, to by the power of the Holy Spirit, forgive sins expressly in this passage.
Now whether or not you agree that this followed down the apostolic tradition, but I would seriously doubt you don’t think Jesus meant this as he said it to his apostles.

274

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:
The 30’000 denominations refers to Christianity as a total, NOT just protestants. And Catholics have divisions as well so don’t use double standards please.
[/quote]

The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church hold true to one faith, they hold that anyone that does not hold to that faith are NOT FAITHFUL and are heretics, blasphemers. However, compared to the Protestant Churches when there is division it is okay sometimes I have seen people rejoice in their “doctrinal differences”, because private interpretation is allowed. I will say within the data, it is even greater than 33,000 Protestant Churches, because I have seen sitting divisions (okay’d by the preacher) within “individual” churches. Where one group of people will hold to one set of doctrine, another set will hold to another set of doctrine, and within those groups certain people will only agree partially with the whole group.

So, it is almost as if those people are a church to themselves. [/quote]

You’re correct in that it is a shame there are so many differences between believers, which causes such heated division and makes unbelievers even more doubtful of Christianity.

That is why I am a “non-denominational” Christian. When someone asks what I am, I say Christian. When they ask what denomination I say “what denomination? There’s denominations?”

There are things that I agree with from many denominations, and many I disagree with. I agree and disagree with the Catholic church, Calvinists, Lutherans, Orthodox, Pentacostals etc.

For me what it comes down to is: Is it Biblical?

If it is, I will agree.[/quote]

Catholic Church wrote the Bible, Catholic Church is the Church out of the side of Jesus.[/quote]

Just out of curiosity (genuine curiosity):

If the Catholic Church was and is the one and only Church instituted by Christ himself and is the only true Christian “denomination”, then why call yourself Catholic and not just simply “Christian” since the early Christians were called…Christian.[/quote]

Because you Protestants stole it! So we had to name what we are to distinguish ourselves. Christianity became a more general category. It doesn’t matter what you call it, it is what it is…I am guessing but I believe it was pulled from the Nicene Creed.

275

The argument about being one mediator is ridiculous, I have blown this out of the water several times.

There is one father, one teacher/rabbi, one mediator, one rock, &c. However, St. Paul calls himself “father,” G-d places teachers in the Church, Moses was the mediator for the Jews in the desert, Peter is called the rock that which Jesus will build his Church on. The reason we have Priests is because we are in the body of Christ so some are Priests, some are teachers, some are mediators, some are prophets, because we are in the one Priest, the one Father, the one Teacher, the one Prophet, the one King.

276

Lets make something clear. I am not a protestant. I am a Christian, a follower of Christ.

@BC

You said:

“What is your scriptural basis that it has to be stated in the Scriptures? What about those believers in the South that used the Bible to say slavery was okay? What about that minister in Florida who convinced two people to kill abortion doctors from the Bible? All of them believed, all weren’t in the truth.”

For one, there’s also something called misinterpretation. And though they claim they used the Bible, they did nothing more than twist scripture to fit their own desires.

Second, as for requiring that something be in Scripture for it to be true is:

1 Cor 4:6

Luke 1:1-4

Matt 4:1-11

2 Tim 3: 16-17

Luke 10:26

Acts 17: 11-20

About the Spirit only guiding the Church leaders:

Thing about that is, MANY “christian” sects claim revelation and guidance from the Spirit, even McG78 admitted that above. If many have been guided by the Spirit, how do you know who’s right? Scripture says that God does not confuse, nor would he about topics such as salvation.

It’s either the Spirit guides all into different doctrine, or he doesn’t guide anyone.

You seem to like to ask “by what authority” to me a lot. So I ask you, by what authority do you claim that oral tradition is just as sacred as Scriptures, and that the Spirit only guides the Catholic church. Please support this view.

277

The other thing I have against tradition (not found in scriptures) is that in essence you can defend anything because any religious act (like sprinkling of water vs total submersion for baptism) by just saying "well sacred tradition says this, this and this.

278

[quote]forbes wrote:
The other thing I have against tradition (not found in scriptures) is that in essence you can defend anything because any religious act (like sprinkling of water vs total submersion for baptism) by just saying "well sacred tradition says this, this and this.[/quote]

Uh…Sacred Tradition was given to us by G-d, we didn’t come up with Sacred Tradition it is a revelation from G-d or proposed through the Holy Ghost. And sprinkling of water vs. total submersion is not Sacred Tradition it is discipline. Baptism is Sacred Tradition. The Trinity is Sacred Tradition, Jesus being fully man and fully G-d is Sacred Tradition.

279

I thought that the term “christian” began as a derogatory term used by the Romans for the followers of Jesus and that it was then adopted as a sort of badge of honor after that.

280

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:
The other thing I have against tradition (not found in scriptures) is that in essence you can defend anything because any religious act (like sprinkling of water vs total submersion for baptism) by just saying "well sacred tradition says this, this and this.[/quote]

Uh…Sacred Tradition was given to us by G-d, we didn’t come up with Sacred Tradition it is a revelation from G-d or proposed through the Holy Ghost. And sprinkling of water vs. total submersion is not Sacred Tradition it is discipline. Baptism is Sacred Tradition. The Trinity is Sacred Tradition, Jesus being fully man and fully G-d is Sacred Tradition.[/quote]

Baptism is sacred tradition found in SCRIPTURE.

The Trinity and deity of the God-man Jesus Christ is NOT a tradition, it is the nature of God revealed in…once again…scripture.

If Baptism was done by submersion, why is it ever done then by sprinkling?

And whats up with infant baptism?