Technical superiority is not a prerequisite. You absolutely must have at least a moderate level of skill (probably higher than average in all likelihood). But being technically superior doesn’t always equal winning. Being physically superior can make up for and even trump technical superiority in extreme cases (which I would classify Lesnar as being).
I can’t disagree with this on whole, however you don’t rise to the very top level of two sports, college wrestling and mma without a significant amount of technical superiority. Also, if you actually study Lesnar’s fights and even 8 or 10 of his wrestling matches you will see that this is a man who is not only physically gifted but also displays technical superiority over his opponents.
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You don’t do so without an above average level of technical skill, I won’t argue that. But that doesn’t mean that you are the most technically superior competitor, or even that you rely more on your technical skill than your other attributes.
Neither occurs in a vacuum and both must be combined to produce a champion, but the two are rarely evenly distributed. In the majority of cases one is more heavily relied on than the other, in Lesnar’s case, his physical superiority is more prevalent than his technical superiority from what I have seen (both MMA and collegiate wrestling matches).
Yes, I am assuming that because quite a few guys likely did not have his natural gifts, so therefore would have had to develop their technical skills to a higher degree to make it to that level of wrestling. I’m sure that he was also technically superior to quite a few guys who he beat as well though.
I’m just pointing out that just because someone wins a competition doesn’t necessarily mean that they are the most technically skilled competitor.
Absolutely, it’s a combination. Lesnar has technical skill, I have never said otherwise.
No. Again you’re trying to compare Lesnar to my example of the pure “bull”, which I have stated that I do not believe that Lesnar is. An big, strong, fast country boy off the farm would be purely attributes and no skill. That is not what I think Lesnar is.
And I’ve seen plenty of wrestling matches where the obviously stronger, more gifted athlete wins. Examples of both scenarios are prevalent in combat sports. Technique can trump physicality if it is developed to a high enough degree, but physicality can also trump technical skill if there is a large disparity or if combined with a “high enough” degree of skill. It usually depends on the degree of difference between the two variables between individuals.
Again, when has Couture ever held an opponent down helpless and beat their face in with arm punches? No, it doesn’t take incredible physicality to just control position on the ground (though obviously it helps), again it’s the manner in which he did it which demonstrates his incredible physicality.
Fedor smashes guys on the ground all the time, has some of the most viscious GNP of all time. But if you watch when he punches, he gets full hip rotation and uses his weight to add power to the punches (i.e. uses his whole body to generate force). Brock was just swinging his arm and busted up Mir’s face as quickly as I’ve ever seen anybody else (in MMA) bust someone’s face up.
So lots of guys effectively utilize ground and pound (admittedly wrestlers tend to be the best at it, which Brock is one of). But Brock is the only one I’ve ever seen smash someone’s face using arm punches.
Both are important that I won’t disagree with.
There are also plenty more examples where strength trumps skill.
Does he not have huge hands? Do you think that 4XL gloves are a standard MMA glove size? He had to have them custom made!
I don’t know what your experience training striking is, but I’ve trained with some world champions as well as some of their top students. And everyone of them has mentioned the huge impact (pun intended) that having big hands has on striking power. Mentioning that he has huge hands is not showing bias, it’s stating a fact which does in fact have bearing on his ability to hit hard.
Carwin is the only guy in the UFC with bigger hands than Lesnar. And low and behold, the guy also hits like a freight train (only he has more experience striking and seems to be more accurate/crisp with his punches).
The fact that they both have huge hands and hit very hard is not a coincidence.
And again, he had 50 lbs over Randy when they walked into the Octagon, so my statement was not false. I never once said that he had 50 lbs on all of his opponents.
Punching power is an elusive thing that can’t really be pinpointed to any one variable. But, having big hands is one of the variables that is heavily coorelated. We really don’t know how hard those football players could hit if they learned how to properly punch.
Again, Brock has developed some skill in terms of striking, that I’m not disputing. He still has a long way to go before I’d consider him a “good” striker. But he’s definitely improving.
And I’m not discounting that he has wrestling skill. But still think that his physicality is what is driving the effectiveness of the skill that he has. Like I said way back, he figured out a long time ago what he was good at and how to effectively utilize his physicality through technique.
Because Couture was way more technically skilled than either of them.
When a smaller guy beats a bigger guy it’s a pretty safe bet that they are the more skilled fighter (since they obviously didn’t have a physical advantage, really skill and conditioning are the only other possible advantages that they could have). When a bigger guy beats a smaller one though the reason isn’t always because the bigger guy is the more technically skilled fighter (sometimes it is, just not always). This is one example of when the winner was the bigger, stronger, physically superior fighter.
Yes. Sylvia was a big, goofy, uncoordinated, and slow, and not all that conditioned fighter. He wasn’t even in the same ball park as Lesnar in terms of physicality.
Lesnar had twice the size advantage on Couture though, along with being stronger, faster, and just as (if not more) agile than Gonzaga. That’s a huge difference. His area of greatest technical skill was also where Randy likes to fight, wrestling. He isn’t technically superior to Randy at wrestling, but he’s good enough that when combined with his physical superiority, he was too much for Randy to handle.
Again, it’s the total athletic package that Lesnar brings to the table that makes him such a physical force. Erickson is a big guy, but he isn’t the athlete that Lesnar is. No one is MMA is.
He did beat Herring with skill as well though, I’m not denying that. Herring has never really been a highly skilled fighter though IMO.
No disputing that.
No doubt.
He made a rookie mistake in the first fight. But if you go back and watch it again, you’ll see that he was dominating Mir up until that point. He actually should have won the fight earlier, but got a bogus stand up by Mazaggati. I’ll agree that he probably spent a large amount of time learning how to avoid and defend submissions between the two fights though. Which only made it that much easier for him to beat Mir.
But I don’t know how you can deny that it was his strength, power, and huge hands which allowed him to pummel Mir’s face with arm punches. I’m sure that without those things he still might have won with superior top control and may have even been able to gain the arm/neck control position that he did. But he wouldn’t have been able to finish Mir from that position.
I think that Nog would likely outbox Velasquez. You’re right that Cain has some heavy hands, but I think Nog could avoid them and frustrate him. Kongo hit Cain a number of times in their fight, and had it not been for Cains chin (and Kongo’s stupidity in trying to wrestle with him) he’d have probably won that fight. I think that Nog would probably be able to do similarly as well on the feet. At which point I’d agree that Cain would probably try to take Nog down and wind up getting submitted.
I also agree that Dos Santos has not impressed me (especially his fight against Mirko). I think he’d get beat by any of the others mentioned.
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
This just in: ZEB has a not so secret man crush and want’s to see Brock’s Lesnar.[/quote]
This just in WhiteFlash obviously agrees with Sento otherwise he would be calling Sento a “Lesnar hater”.
Ha ha, all kidding aside, I don’t love Lesnar he’s an obnoxious overbearing egomaniac, but he still has great skill far more than Sento gives him credit for. Also, if you’ve noticed over the years, I love a good debate.
Technical superiority is not a prerequisite. You absolutely must have at least a moderate level of skill (probably higher than average in all likelihood). But being technically superior doesn’t always equal winning. Being physically superior can make up for and even trump technical superiority in extreme cases (which I would classify Lesnar as being).
I can’t disagree with this on whole, however you don’t rise to the very top level of two sports, college wrestling and mma without a significant amount of technical superiority. Also, if you actually study Lesnar’s fights and even 8 or 10 of his wrestling matches you will see that this is a man who is not only physically gifted but also displays technical superiority over his opponents.
You don’t do so without an above average level of technical skill, I won’t argue that. But that doesn’t mean that you are the most technically superior competitor, or even that you rely more on your technical skill than your other attributes.
Neither occurs in a vacuum and both must be combined to produce a champion, but the two are rarely evenly distributed. In the majority of cases one is more heavily relied on than the other, in Lesnar’s case, his physical superiority is more prevalent than his technical superiority from what I have seen (both MMA and collegiate wrestling matches).[/quote]
But originally you said he does not have a high degree of technical skill (I believe you said this early on, please correct me if I misquoted you)and I say that he in fact does have a superior degree of technical skill. His other attributes add to his success no question.
[quote]Again, I’m sure that Lesnar beat quite a few guys on his way to his NCAA title who were technically superior to him
Now you’re assuming that Lesnar had technically inferior skills to “quite a few guys” having never seen the matches? Okay, sorry my friend but you do have a built in bias.
Yes, I am assuming that because quite a few guys likely did not have his natural gifts, so therefore would have had to develop their technical skills to a higher degree to make it to that level of wrestling. I’m sure that he was also technically superior to quite a few guys who he beat as well though.[/quote]
Yes, he was and at that level that is showing a GREAT amount of technical superiority as you can see.
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I mentioned before that Lesnar has wrestling skill, I tried to illustrate with my spectrum model that he isn’t totally physicality, but is more physicality than skill.
And I disagree with your assessment. If that were true any big strong and fast country boy, off the farm could step onto an NCAA wrestling mat and win first place. As we both know that does not happen. When you place physical superiority over technical superiority you are not grasping what wrestling is all about. I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen wrestling matches where the obviously stronger and more gifted athelete loses. Wrestling is about technique and in order to be the best in the country you must have superior technique in spades!
No. Again you’re trying to compare Lesnar to my example of the pure “bull”, which I have stated that I do not believe that Lesnar is. An big, strong, fast country boy off the farm would be purely attributes and no skill. That is not what I think Lesnar is.[/quote]
But you implied more “bull” than skill and I disagree with that.
[quote]And I’ve seen plenty of wrestling matches where the obviously stronger, more gifted athlete wins. Examples of both scenarios are prevalent in combat sports. Technique can trump physicality if it is developed to a high enough degree, but physicality can also trump technical skill if there is a large disparity or if combined with a “high enough” degree of skill. It usually depends on the degree of difference between the two variables between individuals.
Which really only proves my point. The only other person who you can name that was able to hold down a highly skilled ground fighter (though hughes’ hold down position utilized his legs to hold down one of BJ’s arms, while Lesnar only used one arm) was another extremely strong guy. That’s my point. You need to be extremely strong to be able to do that, even though it does involve skill as well.
I used Hughes as one example, but by no means is he the only example. You seem to like Randy Couture (who doesn’t). Have you noticed that Couture wins his fights by holding his opponent on the ground and beating him senseless? He has submitted maybe 2 opponents the rest is purely wrestling skill (holding them down and punching). But, has anyone pointed this out? Do people demean his skill level because he wins in this fashion? No, and rightly so as he wins by technical superiority on the ground, just as Brock Lesnar has. There are other wrestlers who have had success using the same techniques, and for this they get accolades for their superior ability on the ground. Lesnar, gets accolades for having big hands and being heavy. It’s just crazy! The bias is incredible.
Again, when has Couture ever held an opponent down helpless and beat their face in with arm punches? No, it doesn’t take incredible physicality to just control position on the ground (though obviously it helps), again it’s the manner in which he did it which demonstrates his incredible physicality.[/quote]
Sento, Couture has only won 2 fights by submission. All you have to do is call up some of his fights on youtube (or wherever) and you will clearly see Randy Couture beating people silly while holding them down. Elbows, hands, forearms yea, he’s done it, in fact he’s mastered it.
Oh I don’t know about that, I’ve seen some pretty busted up fighters from ground and pound. Also keep in mind that they allowed Mir to take many, many shots since not one of them was a show stopper. It was more an accumulation of blows to the face. Count how many there were during the fight it was incredible. Hey that Mir can take a beating can’t he?
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already agreed that he is a better wrestler than Mir. Still, he could not have held Mir down as easily as he did or gained that top control position as easily as he did if he weren’t as strong as he is.
Neither could Couture, Hughes, Coleman, Henderson, Lindlin, Pierre, Sherk or, hey wait, anytime one person is on top of another person strength helps. But, what’s more important than strength is skill for without that most important attribute none of the above (including Lesnar) could have held down any of their opponents. In fact, many times the man on top is not as strong as the one on bottom getting the beating. Unless you think Pierre is stronger than Hughes? There are plenty more examples wher skill trumps strength, plenty.
Both are important that I won’t disagree with.
There are also plenty more examples where strength trumps skill.
You can keep inserting imaginary bias into my statements all you want, it doesn’t actually mean that it’s there.
Sorry, didn’t mean to offend you but there is certainly a bias that you (and many others) have against Lesnar. You showed your bias talking about his large hands (they’re so big he can knock people down) and the incorrect statement that he has 50 pounds over his opponents. Because he is big and strong every single thing that he does is attributed to those qualities when that is simply not the case. You need to look beyond these obvious attributes to see that this is a very, very skilled and technically superior wrestler.
Does he not have huge hands? Do you think that 4XL gloves are a standard MMA glove size? He had to have them custom made!
I don’t know what your experience training striking is, but I’ve trained with some world champions as well as some of their top students. And everyone of them has mentioned the huge impact (pun intended) that having big hands has on striking power. Mentioning that he has huge hands is not showing bias, it’s stating a fact which does in fact have bearing on his ability to hit hard.[/quote]
Huge hands can’t hurt but how many fat uncoordinated guys out there with huge hands are mma champs. It’s almost like saying that every big car has a smooth ride, when in fact it takes other things to make that smooth ride. Okay not a great example but you get the idea.
You’re a smart guy who has drawn the incorrect conclusion that all guys with big hands hit hard. See, that is the bias I’m referring to. If you think about it you will see my point on this.
There you go again, pushing an illogical assumption. How about those with average size hands who hit hard. How big are Fedor’s hands, I don’t know but they looked normal to me for someone his size, maybe even a little small. You need to rethink this. Guys with small hands knock peoople out as well.
I’m not going back to look but I think you said he has 50 pounds on most people he fights, or something like that. Check it and refresh both our memories. and that is just not the case and never has been. He’s not had 50 pounds on anyone that he’s fought in mma thus far.
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Have you ever seen Couture bust up somebody’s face with arm punches? Are you denying that at 4XL gloves size that Lesnar’s hands aren’t huge (second only to Carwin in the UFC)? Are you completely uninformed as to the fact that big hands equal more punching power?
Big hands are a fine thing to have, but far, far more important is how to use them. I had an uncle who was a meat cutter who had huge hands, but he couldn’t knock out a fly. You can have a large hammer, but if you don’t know how to use it, it becomes a worthless tool in your hands. Can you imagine the size of Bob Sapps hands? How many big actors are there with huge hands? How about big football players? Many of them have large hands, so what? Once again your bias will not allow you to look behind any physical attribute to see what has actually propelled Lesnar to the top of the UFC. Keep in mind I am not discounting his physical attributles, I’m just seeing that backing up the physicality is a highly skilled, technically superior wrestler.
Punching power is an elusive thing that can’t really be pinpointed to any one variable. But, having big hands is one of the variables that is heavily coorelated. We really don’t know how hard those football players could hit if they learned how to properly punch.[/quote]
Sure big hands help no question, but someone can have big hands and hit like a sissy as I stated. As for the football players I used to watch as some of them tried boxing, they didn’t hit very hard and utterly failed in the ring, hand size didn’t help them.
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Again, Brock has developed some skill in terms of striking, that I’m not disputing. He still has a long way to go before I’d consider him a “good” striker. But he’s definitely improving.[/quote]
I agree.
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It also proves that he outweighed an opponent by 50 lbs. Name one of those other fighters who has outweighed (even one) their opponents by that much.
If Lesnars 15 to 25 pound weight advantage is so important then how come the following happened?
Gabriel Gonzaga out weighed Randy Couture by about 25 pounds (or greater) on fight night, yet Couture administered a first class beating to him.
Tim Sylvia at 6"8’ and 261 pounds out weighed Couture by about 30 pounds but Couture still defeated him with no trouble.
Because Couture was way more technically skilled than either of them.[/quote]
Exactly my point! Thank you. Skill trumps size (in most cases) and Lesnar wins by using skill (and size) and you don’t give him enough credit for his skill. If size were the deciding factor then Couture would have lost to both Gonzaga and Sylvia.
Remember the birth of the UFC? Royce Gracie beat everyone because he had superior skill, certainly not size as most of his opponents were larger than him.
[quote]Yet when he went up against Lesnar all of a sudden Lesnars weight was the deciding factor. Sylvia weighed only 5-10 pounds less than Lesnar. Do you really think that the 5-10 pounds that Lesnar has over Sylvia made that much of a difference in the Couture fight.
Yes. Sylvia was a big, goofy, uncoordinated, and slow, and not all that conditioned fighter. He wasn’t even in the same ball park as Lesnar in terms of physicality.[/quote]
Goofy ha ha, he is goofy isn’t he. I feel sorry for the guy I do.
Anyway, size means little if you don’t have the skill to carry it forward. Ask Gracies opponents in the early days as Couture who beat two guys much larger than he.
[quote]Or, was it skill (and his other attributes) that caused Lesnar to win? Nor, did the 25 pounds that Gonzaga had on Couture seem to bother him much. Physical attributes only go so far, you must have superior skill as well to rise to the top.
Lesnar had twice the size advantage on Couture though, along with being stronger, faster, and just as (if not more) agile than Gonzaga. That’s a huge difference. His area of greatest technical skill was also where Randy likes to fight, wrestling. He isn’t technically superior to Randy at wrestling, but he’s good enough that when combined with his physical superiority, he was too much for Randy to handle.[/quote]
He had about 40 pounds on Couture and I think it did make a difference no question. But, as Randy admitted he does not belong in the HW division any longer. I agree. Lesnars other opponents were close in size (Herring was taller as well) and size meant nothing as I pointe dout in my earlier posts.
[quote]erring has never been anything but a big guy. He’s never been a “good” striker either IMO.
Herring at 6’4" and 250lbs. is a seasoned professional mma fighter who beat the likes of
Cheick Kongo, Enson Inoue, Tom Erikson and took Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira the distance twice in losing to him. Herring with an mma record of 28-14 was defeated by Brock Lesnar because Lesnar was better on his feet AND better on the ground. I’m surprised that you think the 15 pounds Lesnar had over Herring was the contributing factor. It was skill sento, pure skill. If it were merely size Tom Erikson at 6’3" and 280 pounds would have beaten Herring to a pulp.
Again, it’s the total athletic package that Lesnar brings to the table that makes him such a physical force. Erickson is a big guy, but he isn’t the athlete that Lesnar is. No one is MMA is.[/quote]
Really? GSP isn’t the athlete Lesnar is? I think there are others who are aslo gifted in this area but some are too busy calling attention to Lesnars size and athleticism to appreciate this.
But as I stated above he’s beaten some very good fighters and is a seasoned professional as well.
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Mir is a good Jiu-jitsu big man, but unless he can get into a good position for a submission, then he isn’t going to be able to pull off a submission in all likelihood. Lesnar is a better wrestler and was able to use that to control the position on the ground once it got there.
I agree, the reason that Mir was not able to get into position to pull off a submission is because he was on the ground with someone who was controlling him. He had to fight Lesnar’s fight and that did him in.
No disputing that.
He is not a better striker (was actually not doing so well against Frank on the feet) and is not a better submission guy.
I agree, but give Lesnar credit for taking the fight to his strongest area and being able to keep it there, unlike he did in the first Mir fight.
No doubt.
Still, the ease with which he beat Mir was highly influenced by his physical superiority as well.[/quote]
It helped, but skill won the fight for him otherwise he would have beaten Mir the first time.
[quote]This is untrue he had the same physical superiority over Mir in the first fight, but because of his inexperience and over exuberence he lost by submission. If it were size he would have won in their first encounter. So, what happened between the first fight and the second fight? He learned how to deal with a good Jiu-Jitsu man on the ground. In other words, it wasn’t his weight or the size of his hands that mattered but his skill superiority on the ground.
He made a rookie mistake in the first fight. But if you go back and watch it again, you’ll see that he was dominating Mir up until that point. He actually should have won the fight earlier, but got a bogus stand up by Mazaggati. I’ll agree that he probably spent a large amount of time learning how to avoid and defend submissions between the two fights though. Which only made it that much easier for him to beat Mir.[/quote]
Lesnar was sloppy and uncontrolled in the first fight. He gained more ground skill that’s why he beat Mir the second time.
I deny it because it isn’t true. No more than Hughes small hands and Couture medium hands played a role in their ground and pound victories.
Really, you have to stop this. Every other wrestler can ground and pound because they have skil. But when it comes to Lesnar it’s his huge hands and over size body.
That’s just crazy.
[quote]
And maybe like I said, change the subject to who we think should fight for an Interim belt
I’m not sure that will be a long conversation given the list of those who are currently injured or sick.
Haha, no probably not. Still there are a couple of likely candidates and I’d like to hear your thoughts as to who you think would make a good match-up (or test maybe) and why. Nog? Velasquez? Dos Santos? Mir
Dos Santos is too slow on his feet (plodding almost). Nog would certainly be a good match-up for Velasquez. I’d have to go with the experience of Nog, but he’d have to watch those hands of Velasquez on the feet. Velasquez gets the takedown but inexperience gets him choked out, at least that’s one version, what’s yours?
I think that Nog would likely outbox Velasquez. You’re right that Cain has some heavy hands, but I think Nog could avoid them and frustrate him. Kongo hit Cain a number of times in their fight, and had it not been for Cains chin (and Kongo’s stupidity in trying to wrestle with him) he’d have probably won that fight. I think that Nog would probably be able to do similarly as well on the feet. At which point I’d agree that Cain would probably try to take Nog down and wind up getting submitted.[/quote]
I agree, you are correct now readjust your thinking on Lesnar and we can be in complete agreement
Technical superiority is not a prerequisite. You absolutely must have at least a moderate level of skill (probably higher than average in all likelihood). But being technically superior doesn’t always equal winning. Being physically superior can make up for and even trump technical superiority in extreme cases (which I would classify Lesnar as being).
I can’t disagree with this on whole, however you don’t rise to the very top level of two sports, college wrestling and mma without a significant amount of technical superiority. Also, if you actually study Lesnar’s fights and even 8 or 10 of his wrestling matches you will see that this is a man who is not only physically gifted but also displays technical superiority over his opponents.
You don’t do so without an above average level of technical skill, I won’t argue that. But that doesn’t mean that you are the most technically superior competitor, or even that you rely more on your technical skill than your other attributes.
Neither occurs in a vacuum and both must be combined to produce a champion, but the two are rarely evenly distributed. In the majority of cases one is more heavily relied on than the other, in Lesnar’s case, his physical superiority is more prevalent than his technical superiority from what I have seen (both MMA and collegiate wrestling matches).
But originally you said he does not have a high degree of technical skill (I believe you said this early on, please correct me if I misquoted you)and I say that he in fact does have a superior degree of technical skill. His other attributes add to his success no question.
[/quote]
But I also already qualified what I mean by “a high degree of technical skill” and you yourself admitted that Lesnar does not stack up to that standard. Maybe it’s an unrealistic standard, but it’s the standard by which I’m judging him.
Here, how’s this, he has well above average wrestling skill in terms of MMA fighters. Can we both agree on that?
It shows that he has a “high enough” degree of skill that when combined with his physicality allowed him to beat all opponents that year. Whether that translates to a “GREAT amount of technical superiority” in the absolute sense depends on what standards you are using to judge him by.
Yes, I did and I still hold to that opinion. But your above example was someone who had no wrestling skill and was only relying on being big, strong, and fast. Which is not an accurate comparison to my view of Lesnar.
So what? Read what I wrote.
It is absolutely possible to control position through the use of technical superiority and not superior physicality. I never said otherwise.
But like you said, Randy must utilize elbows, forearms, and full blown punches from mount in order to finish an opponent. He has never held down an opponent and smashed up their face with arm punches. I’ve only ever seen Brock do that.
I’ve seen plenty of busted up fighters from gnp as well, but it’s the manner in which Brock busted up Mir’s face that is noteworthy. I mentioned Fedor because he’s one of the best gnp artists in the business, but if you watch him, he utilizes a full twist of his hips and his weight to allow him to hit as hard as possible. He isn’t just using his right arm to do all the damage.
Here is Fedor teaching how to correctly gnp from the guard:
Here he is actually doing it in competition:
Now go back and watch Lesnar’s gnp of Mir. He isn’t using his whole body, or twisting his hips or dropping his weight into the punches. He’s just using his incredible arm strength. I’ve yet to see anyone else ever pull that off and do the same amount of damage. That’s not because he’s just such a better puncher than everyone else, but because of his superior strength, power, and hand size.
Like I said, punching power can’t be conclusively tied to any one variable. But there is a large coorelation between having big hands and punching power. Obviously if someone lacks the coordination, strength, speed, and explosiveness that someone like Lesnar also possesses the results aren’t going to be the same.
Learning correct technique is necessary to optimize striking performance, no dispute there. But not everyone can achieve freakish KO power regardless of how hard they train. You’ve got to be born with the innate physical gifts to reach a truly elite level in this regard. Being big, freakishly strong/powerful, fast, and having big hands would all be included in that list of gifts.
Lesnar still hasn’t really mastered accuracy, and still looks a little awkward when he strikes, so he’s not there yet. But he’s definitely got a lot of the makings of a potential KO artist.
No I haven’t. I just know that there is a coorelation, and it’s apparent by looking at those two guys. Again, what experience do you have with striking and talking to/training with world champion strikers? This isn’t just something I’ve pulled out of thin air.
Fedor hits hard, no dispute. But he doesn’t have the same kind of power that Carwin has. His punch against Bret Rogers was thrown with everything he had. It looked as if he was basically throwing a fast ball with his fist (back leg actually came up off the mat). It also knocked Rogers down and obviously dazed him, but he made an attempt to defend himself as soon as he hit the ground.
Now contrast that with Carwin’s KO of Gonzaga. Carwin didn’t really even set to throw that right hand, didn’t rotate his back foot (allowing him to get his body structure correctly behind the punch)/hips shoulders, no weight shift. Yet Gonzaga dropped like a sack of potatoes and made no attempt to defend himself whatsoever.
There are indeed some smaller guys who KO people as well. But if you actually tested their punching power, they’d be nowhere near as powerful as guys like Carwin and Brock.
It’s physics.
No, you’re mistaken. I never said that. He’s had 50 lbs on Randy, who he has fought thus far.
I’m sure the rare exception exists. But it’s not the rule. And if you were to take most (not that there are that many) guys with huge hands like Brock or Carwin, along with their other physical capacities and teach them how to strike, they’d be much more powerful strikers in the majority of cases than smaller guys with smaller hands and not the same attributes, even if the smaller guys had “better” technique.
Yeah, generally they had no (or at least very, very little) formal training as to how to punch correctly. I used to watch those “tough man” competitions and every now and then you’d have Lawrence Taylor or some other retired football player get called out by “hardbody” and get their ass kicked in the ring. But again, those are pure “bulls”.
Lesnar’s striking skill is improving, no doubt. But one of the primary reasons he can hit so hard is because he has huge hands, and is very strong and powerful. This is especially apparent in his gnp victory over Mir. Again, I just don’t know how you can dispute this if you have any experience striking.
Skill only trumps size if there is a large disparity in terms of skill. The closer the skill levels are to equal the more size starts to take over. They need not actually be equal though.
Likewise the larger the disparity in terms of physicality, the larger the disparity in skill would need to be in order to make up for it. That’s why there are weight classes.
Think of it like a simple math equation. All advantages receive equal value.
So, let’s say that the qualities we’re going to focus on are physical capacity and technical skill (obviously many others including conditioning, experience, strategy, etc… could be included as well, we’ll just keep it simple for illustrative purposes). Each can rate from 1 to 10 on a scale.
Let’s say person A has a physical capacity (combination of size, strength, speed, agility, coordination, etc…) of 5 and a technical skill level of 7 for a total of 12 points.
Then let’s say person B has a physical capacity of 9 and a skill level of 5 for a total of 14 points.
In most cases person B is going to win because the combination of their skill and physicality is superior to the combination of person A’s skill and physicality.
Now of course this is a gross oversimplification and since there are so many variables involved it’s impossible to say who is going to win on any given night. But hopefully this somewhat illustrates what I’m trying to say above.
Ah yes, the first UFC. When the Gracies hand picked all of Royce’s opponents and basically set up the UFC as a huge infomercial for Gracie Jiu-jitsu. And of course, also back when very few martial artists understood groundfighting.
The Gracie family deserves a lot of credit for bringing the importance of groundfighting into the lime light and getting other MA’s to cross train. And also for setting the MMA wheels in motion here in the states.
But its not really a great example.
Sure, they’re both important, I’m not arguing that.
Randy weighed in at 230 (and seeing as that’s his natural weight I highly doubt that he cut to make it), Lesnar weighed in at 265 (already a 35 lb weight advantage) but it’s well known that he cuts from 285 to make that weight. Now, it’s probably not the case that he has gained all of his pre-cutting weight back by fight time, but it’s generally accepted that he is around 280 when he walks into the Octagon. Remember that most of the weight lost while cutting is water, which is quickly replenished (especially since fighters weigh-in the day before the fights).
Quite frankly no, he’s not. GSP is very strong, fast, agile, coordinated, and powerful no doubt. But I doubt he can run as fast, jump as high, lift as much and he isn’t 6’ 3" 285lbs at the same time. GSP is a freak athlete, but Lesnar is a freak among freaks (at least as far as the UFC goes). Did you miss those combine stats that I mentioned earlier?
He has experience, but that’s about it. None of those other guys are vying for any titles.
He’d never seen a knee bar before. You can’t really blame him for not recognizing it and avoiding it. I saw the leg lock coming from a mile away and I’m sure others with submission grappling experience did as well. Brock wasn’t necessarily sloppy, just not prepared for that attack.
But I’m not arguing that he improved between that fight and his second fight with Mir.
Then I guess I’m just not being clear enough.
Winning via ground and pound- not reliant on superior strength, big hands, superior size or really any physical attributes
Smashing someone’s face in with arm punches like Brock did to Mir- definitely reliant on having freakish strength, big hands, and power
Read above.
Good to see that we agree on the possible Interim matches and that Dos Santos has been somewhat of a let down.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
WhiteFlash wrote:
This just in: ZEB has a not so secret man crush and want’s to see Brock’s Lesnar.
This just in WhiteFlash obviously agrees with Sento otherwise he would be calling Sento a “Lesnar hater”.
Ha ha, all kidding aside, I don’t love Lesnar he’s an obnoxious overbearing egomaniac, but he still has great skill far more than Sento gives him credit for. Also, if you’ve noticed over the years, I love a good debate.
[/quote]
Ha, I know man and was just ribbin’ ya. But, imagine if Lesnar was, say, Couture’s size. Would he be as good? I think we can all agree the answer is “NO”. If we can’t then I’m done on this thread.
[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
ZEB wrote:
WhiteFlash wrote:
This just in: ZEB has a not so secret man crush and want’s to see Brock’s Lesnar.
This just in WhiteFlash obviously agrees with Sento otherwise he would be calling Sento a “Lesnar hater”.
Ha ha, all kidding aside, I don’t love Lesnar he’s an obnoxious overbearing egomaniac, but he still has great skill far more than Sento gives him credit for. Also, if you’ve noticed over the years, I love a good debate.
Ha, I know man and was just ribbin’ ya. But, imagine if Lesnar was, say, Couture’s size. Would he be as good? I think we can all agree the answer is “NO”. If we can’t then I’m done on this thread.[/quote]
I think his wrestling skills while not being quite up to Couture’s in mma are not very far off. They are in fact close relative to their college careers. In fact, while Lesnar is an NCAA Division 1 wrestling champ and also a runner-up the previous year Couture never won the NCAA’s.
“…he enrolled at Oklahoma State where he was a three-time NCAA Division 1 All American and two-time NCAA Division 1 runner up in wrestling.”
Comparing pure wrestling records they are very much on par with each other relative to college with Couture having greater success post college. But, as Sento and I have discussed it’s how you maximize those skills in mma that count, and guys like Couture and Hughes have done this as well as anyone to date.
Certainly Lesnar’s size and power are a great factor regarding his meteoric rise to the top of the UFC’s Heavyweight division. However, those who discount his great wrestling skills are overlooking the main reason that he’s currently on top. The same skill sets that drove the careers of virtually all of the wrestlers in mma who have reached the top.
