Carwin vs Lesnar?

Training
184

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
ZEB wrote:

Matt Hughes because he finished in the top 10 at the NCAA tourny.

No, again it’s because his wrestling was very effective and apparent while he was at his peak. I doubt many (MMA fans)care that he finished in the top 10.

That’s not the point, the point is that he finished lower than Lesnar yet got much praise for his great wrestling ability. Lesnar’s wrestling is also “very effective” where are your kudos for him?

When have I ever in this whole thread not given Lesnar credit for being an effective wrestler? Find the quote where I said otherwise.[/quote]

I never said that you said that. I asked where your kudo’s were for his wrestling ability?

[quote]

Josh Koscheck is an incredible wrestler. Everyone gives him credit for being one of the best.

Kos is one of the most decorated collegiate wrestlers to ever enter MMA, and he does get credit for that fact. But, he hasn’t proven to be able to apply his wrestling skills to MMA as effectively as GSP or Hughes (at least against top competition).

Lesnar was not only a Division I winner he was also runner up the previous year. And I think if we compare the two Lesnar has certainly used his wrestling skills more effectively than in the octagon than Kos. Yet, he gets no credit from some for this achievement.

Again, where did I write that Kos has been more effective at using his wrestling in his MMA career than Lesnar? And where have I failed to give him credit for his effectiveness?

I haven’t. [/quote]

I never said that you said that. Read it again, I said "some do not give him credit for his achievement.

[quote]
His credentials? He captured a Division I Wrestling championship.

No, he captured 3 division 1 wrestling championships. There’s a big difference.

Not according to this:

http://departments.edinboro.edu/athletics/media0506/60303wrestling-hof-ewl.asp

“Josh Koscheck is Edinboro UniversityÃ?¢??s only four-time All-American and one of just two wrestlers to win an NCAA Division I national championship. He captured the title at 174 lbs. in 2001, along with a second place finish in 2000, a third place in 2002, and a fourth place in 1999. He is a two-time EWL champion (2000, 2001) and was named the EWL Wrestler of the Year in 2000 and 2001, the Freshman of the Year in 1999, and the EWL Tournament Outstanding Wrestler in 2001. Koscheck concluded his brilliant career with a 128-17 record, including a perfect 42-0 campaign in 2000-01. He ranks fifth in career victories at Edinboro, and is first in career winning percentage (.883). After a 31-9 record as a redshirt freshman, he went on to go 38-4 as a sophomore, losing in the 174 lb. title match to Byron Tucker of Oklahoma by a 3-0 decision. He came back the next season to cap a brilliant 42-0 season with an 8-1 decision over ArmyÃ?¢??s Maurice Worthy. A neck injury limited him as a senior, yet he still battled his way to a third place finish and a 17-4 record. He finished with 27 career falls, good for fifth all-time at Edinboro.”

Damn. Well I stand corrected then. Could have sworn that I’ve read from several sources that he’d won it 3 times. Guess I’ve been listening to the wrong sources.[/quote]

You’re probably one of the most well informed posters on this site, don’t be too hard on yourself. I think I know why you made a mistake. Kos was named three time all-american. Easy to confuse the two.

Hey, now you’re talking! Lesnar is one of the best wrestlers in the UFC. Not best but one of them.

He beat Wes Hand in the finals of the NCAA’s Hand Wrestled for Iowa State and they know what they’re doing. You don’t rise to number one in two different sports without having superior technical ability. I know you are fascinated by his size and power, it’s a great asset, but that is not what primarily drives his success. If that was it we would have many others of his size and larger as champions in mma, we don’t do we?

Also, if his athleticism is so over powering and relies on it mostly, why didn’t he make the grade in the NFL? He tried but was cut. Could it be that there are others in the NFL who had more athleticism? Or are you saying it’s because his technical skill set is quite high with wrestling and not football?

Which is it?

[quote]
I haven’t heard anyone in this thread question Brock’s wrestling ability. No one has ever once said that he wasn’t an effective wrestler. That’s not the same thing as saying that he’s a technically superior wrestler though.[/quote]

I read a few posts where they’ve said he held Mir down by simply laying on him. Total disrespect for someone who is so highly skilled as Lesnar. As if Frank Mir could be held down because another man has 25 pounds on him, utter nonsense. It was skill and technical superiority which helped Lesnar hold down Mir. This is the same skill that Hughes displayed when held down BJJ champ BJ Penn. You can’t stop these guys with power and might you have to out maneuver them with superior technique.

[quote]
None of those other guys also has 50 lbs on their opponents.[/quote]

You are showing your inner bias with that statement. In your mind you see Lesnar as such a large figure that he cannot be beaten.

Your assessment is untrue anyway, the following fighters, did NOT have a 50 pound disadvantage:

Frank Mir 6’3" 240lbs.

Heath Herring 6’4" 250lbs.

Kim soo Min 6’1" 245lbs

Randy Couture 6’1" 230lbs.

Brock Lesnar 6’3" 265lbs.

I don’t see any huge physical advantage except against Couture and Couture readliy admitts that he didn’t belong in the HW division any longer, so that’s a non-issue. In fact Herring is even one inch taller than Lesnar. Granted Lesnar gains some weight after the weigh in, most fighters do. So how much of a weight advnatage did he really have? Perhaps 15lbs. to 25lbs. This comprises only a 6% to a 10% weight advanage which is little when it comes to heavyweights. If for example a welterweight were to give up just 15 pounds he would be fighting in another weight class at 184 (Middle wt. 185). Each weight class (as you know) is separated by a mere 15 pounds (LH 20lbs.) because in lighter weights 15 pounds makes a difference. But at heavyweight the difference is 60 pounds! The reason (obviously)is that one pound is less of a percentage difference with larger people.

Bottom line: Weight did not play a signigicant role in any of Brock Lesnars victories.

[quote]
No one is saying that he sucks at wrestling or has no skill just that technical superiority has not been the driving force behind his success, his attributes have. [/quote]

His technical superiority (along with his other attributes) is what drove him to the finals of two NCAA tournaments (winning one). His technical skill set is what caused him to drop Randy Couture with a well timed leg sweep from standing position in their fight. His technical superiority is what prevented Frank Mir from being able to get out from bottom position and instead took a beating (see Matt Hughes do a similar move on BJ Penn).

It’s time you give him some credit for having serious technical skill as well as many physical attributes.

185

[quote]101airborne wrote:
Does anyone else still have the Carwin and Lesnar fight advertising on Comcast? I saw it about twenty times on Saturday while watching football. Surely there will be someone gravely disappointed on the 21st demanding their money back.[/quote]

It’s either an incredible rare error, or a Dana White move to build up the ppv gate that will certainly suffer when everyone is aware that Lesnar and Carwin will not be on the card.

Hmm, I wonder which it is?

186

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
drewh wrote:
The most logical fight would be Dos Santos vs. Valsquez, which is sick fight imo.

Really? What about Carwin? The poor guy has been training in preparation for a title shot. Now you’re just gonna say “screw you” and make him wait until Brock feels better? Why not have him fight one of those guys for the interim belt and then have the winner of that fight Brock to unify the belt when he returns?

So, which one of them do you think would make a better match-up for Carwin?[/quote]

Valsquez, in my opinion would give Carwin all he could handle. Much better opponent than the robotic punching Dos Santos, surely he wouldn’t get out of a first round with the dynamic Carwin.

187

I thought Carwin was out for having knee surgery…?? If so,he’s not fighting anytime soon either.

188

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
ZEB wrote:

Matt Hughes because he finished in the top 10 at the NCAA tourny.

No, again it’s because his wrestling was very effective and apparent while he was at his peak. I doubt many (MMA fans)care that he finished in the top 10.

That’s not the point, the point is that he finished lower than Lesnar yet got much praise for his great wrestling ability. Lesnar’s wrestling is also “very effective” where are your kudos for him?

When have I ever in this whole thread not given Lesnar credit for being an effective wrestler? Find the quote where I said otherwise.

I never said that you said that. I asked where your kudo’s were for his wrestling ability?

Josh Koscheck is an incredible wrestler. Everyone gives him credit for being one of the best.

Kos is one of the most decorated collegiate wrestlers to ever enter MMA, and he does get credit for that fact. But, he hasn’t proven to be able to apply his wrestling skills to MMA as effectively as GSP or Hughes (at least against top competition).

Lesnar was not only a Division I winner he was also runner up the previous year. And I think if we compare the two Lesnar has certainly used his wrestling skills more effectively than in the octagon than Kos. Yet, he gets no credit from some for this achievement.

Again, where did I write that Kos has been more effective at using his wrestling in his MMA career than Lesnar? And where have I failed to give him credit for his effectiveness?

I haven’t.

I never said that you said that. Read it again, I said "some do not give him credit for his achievement.

His credentials? He captured a Division I Wrestling championship.

No, he captured 3 division 1 wrestling championships. There’s a big difference.

Not according to this:

http://departments.edinboro.edu/athletics/media0506/60303wrestling-hof-ewl.asp

“Josh Koscheck is Edinboro UniversityÃ??Ã?¢??s only four-time All-American and one of just two wrestlers to win an NCAA Division I national championship. He captured the title at 174 lbs. in 2001, along with a second place finish in 2000, a third place in 2002, and a fourth place in 1999. He is a two-time EWL champion (2000, 2001) and was named the EWL Wrestler of the Year in 2000 and 2001, the Freshman of the Year in 1999, and the EWL Tournament Outstanding Wrestler in 2001. Koscheck concluded his brilliant career with a 128-17 record, including a perfect 42-0 campaign in 2000-01. He ranks fifth in career victories at Edinboro, and is first in career winning percentage (.883). After a 31-9 record as a redshirt freshman, he went on to go 38-4 as a sophomore, losing in the 174 lb. title match to Byron Tucker of Oklahoma by a 3-0 decision. He came back the next season to cap a brilliant 42-0 season with an 8-1 decision over ArmyÃ??Ã?¢??s Maurice Worthy. A neck injury limited him as a senior, yet he still battled his way to a third place finish and a 17-4 record. He finished with 27 career falls, good for fifth all-time at Edinboro.”

Damn. Well I stand corrected then. Could have sworn that I’ve read from several sources that he’d won it 3 times. Guess I’ve been listening to the wrong sources.

You’re probably one of the most well informed posters on this site, don’t be too hard on yourself. I think I know why you made a mistake. Kos was named three time all-american. Easy to confuse the two.

In that case, he certainly doesn’t deserve more credit than Lesnar, in any sense.

Hey, now you’re talking! Lesnar is one of the best wrestlers in the UFC. Not best but one of them.

Still doesn’t prove that he’s a technically superior wrestler though. Just proves that he’s an incredibly effective wrestler.

He beat Wes Hand in the finals of the NCAA’s Hand Wrestled for Iowa State and they know what they’re doing. You don’t rise to number one in two different sports without having superior technical ability. I know you are fascinated by his size and power, it’s a great asset, but that is not what primarily drives his success. If that was it we would have many others of his size and larger as champions in mma, we don’t do we?
[/quote]

Just because he beat someone doesn’t mean that he’s technically superior.

Chuck Liddell beat Jeremy Horn (in their second fight), yet Chuck isn’t nearly as technically skilled as Horn. He just has attributes that Horn doesn’t. There are other ways to win than being technically superior to your opponent.

I am not disputing that Lesnar has wrestling skill. I just don’t think it’s as high caliber as you seem to, and I think that what skill he does have is primarily affective due to his attributes.

Well, first he had never played football to the best of my knowledge prior to trying out for the Vikings. He was invited to try out due to his freakish athleticism, but no he really didn’t have any skill when it came to football. His wrestling skill is definitely far more developed than his football skill.

Again, I’ve never said he doesn’t have some wrestling skill, all I’ve said is that it’s his physicality that is primarily responsible for his effectiveness.

Skill and technique definitely played a role. But you don’t just hold someone who knows what they’re doing in position like that with just pure skill. I know that hold down position well, and you’ve got to be quite strong to hold someone like that, especially holding them that high up into their armpit. If you’re down around the elbow (and subsequently higher up on the head with your arm), then that’s a different story as your leverage is much better.

But, holding someone down and busting up their face with arm punches? Now, that you’ve got to admit was highly attributable (pun intended) to his incredible strength, huge hands, and power.

No, I have no bias. It’s just a fact. Name one of those other guys who outweighed their opponents by 50 lbs come fight time? If you think that huge size/strength disparity is inconsequential, then why are there weight classes in MMA?

Brock may have weighed in at 265 (due to it being the HW weight limit), but I know you’re smart enough to know that he cuts to that weight and probably walked into the Octagon weighing around 280. That would be, like I said, 50 lbs more than Randy when he entered the Octagon.

I also didn’t say that he had 50 lbs on every opponent.

Again, name one of the other wrestlers you mentioned who had 50 lbs on any of their opponents, even one.

It’s not really a non-issue though as his win over Randy is what many (not necessarily you) are using to validate his skills and MMA wrestling ability. Randy was also the guy who Brock won the title from and who had previously beaten a couple bigger stronger guys than himself.

So, while I agree that Randy can’t match up physically with the current HW’s, doesn’t that somewhat prove my point about him simply being physically outmatched by Brock? And, actually to date Randy has done the best out of anyone against Lesnar, even being so much smaller, due to his being a better technical wrestler.

I get what you’re saying about the percentage of weight, but it’s not just weight that gives Lesnar the advantage. He’s got strength, speed, power, and agility advantages over everyone he’s faced so far as well (which are all significant advantages).

And again, I am not arguing that he isn’t technically better than Herring (at pretty much everything), or isn’t a better wrestler than Mir.

As far as the HW division being such a large range, I think that initially it had to due with the lack of depth in terms of HW fighters when the weight classes were created. If they can get some more depth, they should implement a “cruiserweight” class or something similar (like up to 230-240). That would give guys like Randy, Fedor (not that he really needs it), Cro Cop, etc… a weight class that was more suited to their natural fighting weight.

Heck, then maybe even bump the HW weight limit up to 285 like it is in Collegiate wrestling.

Yes it did. Randy even basically said so after their fight. “That’s one big sumbitch.”

I’ve given him credit for the skill that he has showcased. I just don’t think it’s been as technically high caliber as you seem to.

Honestly I just don’t think we’re going to come to an agreement on this subject. We’ve goth given examples to back up our viewpoints, and neither of us has come around to the other’s way of seeing things. So I really don’t think either of us can say anything else that is going to convince the other that we are right and they are wrong.

Like you said before, let’s just agree to disagree.

And maybe like I said, change the subject to who we think should fight for an Interim belt.

189

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
I thought Carwin was out for having knee surgery…?? If so,he’s not fighting anytime soon either.[/quote]

Apparently he’s got a bad MCL strain, but isn’t having surgery, just rehabbing it.

But, it seems he’s also content to wait until Lesnar recovers to fight him as well.

190

I might catch shit for this, but I don’t see the fascination with Dos Santos. He’s beaten a couple of nobodies and a clearly disinterested CroCop who, quite frankly, looked like he threw the fight. If they do have an interim title match I don’t think he should be in the running.

191

Dos Santos was thoroughly unimpressive against CroCop.

I think Cain-Shane would be a good fight, but Carwin would win my ko.

192

Has anyone heard anything beyond the “mono” story that was going around for Lesnar? I heard this morning that is something very serious, may require surgery and Lesnar MAY not fight again.

193

[quote]dgranucci wrote:
Has anyone heard anything beyond the “mono” story that was going around for Lesnar? I heard this morning that is something very serious, may require surgery and Lesnar MAY not fight again.[/quote]

Dana has stated that Brock has an intestinal disorder.

Reef linked this in the thread about Lesnar being ill:
http://wcco.com/sports/brock.lesnar.ill.2.1316457.html

194

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
dgranucci wrote:
Has anyone heard anything beyond the “mono” story that was going around for Lesnar? I heard this morning that is something very serious, may require surgery and Lesnar MAY not fight again.

Dana has stated that Brock has an intestinal disorder.

Reef linked this in the thread about Lesnar being ill:
http://wcco.com/sports/brock.lesnar.ill.2.1316457.html [/quote]

Food poisoning? Or someone slipped him a tapeworm, you know, to make him shrink a little… lol jk

195

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
dgranucci wrote:
Has anyone heard anything beyond the “mono” story that was going around for Lesnar? I heard this morning that is something very serious, may require surgery and Lesnar MAY not fight again.

Dana has stated that Brock has an intestinal disorder.

Reef linked this in the thread about Lesnar being ill:
http://wcco.com/sports/brock.lesnar.ill.2.1316457.html
[/quote]

Yea, thats what I heard today. He had surgery for it too. Theres a whole thread about this that I think I saw you posted on.

196

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
ZEB wrote:

Matt Hughes because he finished in the top 10 at the NCAA tourny.

No, again it’s because his wrestling was very effective and apparent while he was at his peak. I doubt many (MMA fans)care that he finished in the top 10.

That’s not the point, the point is that he finished lower than Lesnar yet got much praise for his great wrestling ability. Lesnar’s wrestling is also “very effective” where are your kudos for him?

When have I ever in this whole thread not given Lesnar credit for being an effective wrestler? Find the quote where I said otherwise.

I never said that you said that. I asked where your kudo’s were for his wrestling ability?

Josh Koscheck is an incredible wrestler. Everyone gives him credit for being one of the best.

Kos is one of the most decorated collegiate wrestlers to ever enter MMA, and he does get credit for that fact. But, he hasn’t proven to be able to apply his wrestling skills to MMA as effectively as GSP or Hughes (at least against top competition).

Lesnar was not only a Division I winner he was also runner up the previous year. And I think if we compare the two Lesnar has certainly used his wrestling skills more effectively than in the octagon than Kos. Yet, he gets no credit from some for this achievement.

Again, where did I write that Kos has been more effective at using his wrestling in his MMA career than Lesnar? And where have I failed to give him credit for his effectiveness?

I haven’t.

I never said that you said that. Read it again, I said "some do not give him credit for his achievement.

His credentials? He captured a Division I Wrestling championship.

No, he captured 3 division 1 wrestling championships. There’s a big difference.

Not according to this:

http://departments.edinboro.edu/athletics/media0506/60303wrestling-hof-ewl.asp

“Josh Koscheck is Edinboro UniversityÃ???Ã??Ã?¢??s only four-time All-American and one of just two wrestlers to win an NCAA Division I national championship. He captured the title at 174 lbs. in 2001, along with a second place finish in 2000, a third place in 2002, and a fourth place in 1999. He is a two-time EWL champion (2000, 2001) and was named the EWL Wrestler of the Year in 2000 and 2001, the Freshman of the Year in 1999, and the EWL Tournament Outstanding Wrestler in 2001. Koscheck concluded his brilliant career with a 128-17 record, including a perfect 42-0 campaign in 2000-01. He ranks fifth in career victories at Edinboro, and is first in career winning percentage (.883). After a 31-9 record as a redshirt freshman, he went on to go 38-4 as a sophomore, losing in the 174 lb. title match to Byron Tucker of Oklahoma by a 3-0 decision. He came back the next season to cap a brilliant 42-0 season with an 8-1 decision over ArmyÃ???Ã??Ã?¢??s Maurice Worthy. A neck injury limited him as a senior, yet he still battled his way to a third place finish and a 17-4 record. He finished with 27 career falls, good for fifth all-time at Edinboro.”

Damn. Well I stand corrected then. Could have sworn that I’ve read from several sources that he’d won it 3 times. Guess I’ve been listening to the wrong sources.

You’re probably one of the most well informed posters on this site, don’t be too hard on yourself. I think I know why you made a mistake. Kos was named three time all-american. Easy to confuse the two.

In that case, he certainly doesn’t deserve more credit than Lesnar, in any sense.

Hey, now you’re talking! Lesnar is one of the best wrestlers in the UFC. Not best but one of them.

Still doesn’t prove that he’s a technically superior wrestler though. Just proves that he’s an incredibly effective wrestler.

He beat Wes Hand in the finals of the NCAA’s Hand Wrestled for Iowa State and they know what they’re doing. You don’t rise to number one in two different sports without having superior technical ability. I know you are fascinated by his size and power, it’s a great asset, but that is not what primarily drives his success. If that was it we would have many others of his size and larger as champions in mma, we don’t do we?

Just because he beat someone doesn’t mean that he’s technically superior.[/quote]

But when you climb to the top of the ranks in two sports as Lesnar has you don’t do so on brute strength alone, his technical superiority is on display in virtually every match. If you choose not to see it because of his over powering size that’s your perception, not reality.

[quote]
Also, if his athleticism is so over powering and relies on it mostly, why didn’t he make the grade in the NFL? He tried but was cut. Could it be that there are others in the NFL who had more athleticism? Or are you saying it’s because his technical skill set is quite high with wrestling and not football?

Which is it?

Well, first he had never played football to the best of my knowledge prior to trying out for the Vikings. He was invited to try out due to his freakish athleticism, but no he really didn’t have any skill when it came to football. His wrestling skill is definitely far more developed than his football skill.[/quote]

But you talk of his “athleticism” as if it’s the driving force behind his victories, when in fact it is his wrestling skill which has caused him to rise to the top of the mma game. Skill trumps athleticism every time and Lesnar has proven it in both his failed attempt to make the grade in the NFL and in his meteoric rise to mma champion.

But that phyicality wasn’t good enough for the NFL. How strange you maintain that it’s the reason he’s an mma champion yet it did him no good in the NFL.

[quote]
I haven’t heard anyone in this thread question Brock’s wrestling ability. No one has ever once said that he wasn’t an effective wrestler. That’s not the same thing as saying that he’s a technically superior wrestler though.

I read a few posts where they’ve said he held Mir down by simply laying on him. Total disrespect for someone who is so highly skilled as Lesnar. As if Frank Mir could be held down because another man has 25 pounds on him, utter nonsense. It was skill and technical superiority which helped Lesnar hold down Mir. This is the same skill that Hughes displayed when held down BJJ champ BJ Penn. You can’t stop these guys with power and might you have to out maneuver them with superior technique.

Skill and technique definitely played a role. But you don’t just hold someone who knows what they’re doing in position like that with just pure skill.[/quote]

Not at all true, as I’ve stated Hughes did it to BJ Penn and he didn’t have 20 pounds of weight on him. And Penn is a far superior Jiu-Jitsu man compared to Frank Mir. Why is it hard to believe that Lesnar held him down with skill? Watch the fight again. If you think 20-25 pounds had anything to do with it you’re very wrong. By the way how did Lesnar pin his opponents in college? He wrestled dudes much, much heavier than Frank Mir, yet he pinned many. I can tell you as a former College wrestler that it takes technique to pin someone even close to your own weight, who does not want to be pinned.

Lesnar never gave Mir the opportunity to escape, reverse, or put him in a submission hold. He did this with SKILL, a high degree of SKILL!

I’m reading your bias again, “huge hands”. Really? How big are Couture’s hands? He’s rarely tapped anyone out, he wins by ground and pound just about every time he wins, how big are his hands? It’s obvious at this point you are fully entthralled with Lesnars size and see little else.

[quote]None of those other guys also has 50 lbs on their opponents.

You are showing your inner bias and buying into hype with that statement. In your mind you see Lesnar as such a large figure that he must win these fights by size and power.

No, I have no bias. It’s just a fact. Name one of those other guys who outweighed their opponents by 50 lbs come fight time? If you think that huge size/strength disparity is inconsequential, then why are there weight classes in MMA?

Your assessment is untrue anyway, the following fighters, did NOT have a 50 pound disadvantage:

Frank Mir 6’3" 240lbs.

Heath Herring 6’4" 250lbs.

Kim soo Min 6’1" 245lbs

Randy Couture 6’1" 230lbs.

Brock Lesnar 6’3" 265lbs.

So, while I agree that Randy can’t match up physically with the current HW’s, doesn’t that somewhat prove my point about him simply being physically outmatched by Brock? And, actually to date Randy has done the best out of anyone against Lesnar, even being so much smaller, due to his being a better technical wrestler.[/quote]

It proves nothing, Couture is not a heavyweight, he even said it.

[quote]In fact Herring is even one inch taller than Lesnar. Granted Lesnar gains some weight after the weigh in, most fighters do. So how much of a weight advnatage did he really have? Perhaps 15lbs. to 25lbs. This comprises only a 6% to a 10% weight advanage which is little when it comes to heavyweights. If for example a welterweight were to give up just 15 pounds he would be fighting in another weight class at 184 (Middle wt. 185). Each weight class (as you know) is separated by a mere 15 pounds (LH 20lbs.) because in lighter weights 15 pounds makes a difference. But at heavyweight the difference is 60 pounds! The reason (obviously)is that one pound is less of a percentage difference with larger people.

I get what you’re saying about the percentage of weight, but it’s not just weight that gives Lesnar the advantage. He’s got strength, speed, power, and agility advantages over everyone he’s faced so far as well (which are all significant advantages).[/quote]

But you said weight was the deciding factor when you mentioned erroneously that Lesnar has 50 pounds on his opponents.

[quote]
And again, I am not arguing that he isn’t technically better than Herring (at pretty much everything), or isn’t a better wrestler than Mir.[/quote]

But Herring is supposed to be far, far better on his feet than Lesnar (Lesnar’s just a big, strong fast guy with no technical skill, remember?) yet was knocked on his ass by Lesnar with one punch (can all big people do that or just Lesnar?). And Mir is far superior to Lesnar in Jiu-Jitsu yet could do nothing against him, ON THE GROUND. Admit that Lesnar showed greater ground skills against Mir and greater stand-ups skill against Herring. He used skill to beat both of those guys, unless you’re in the camp who thinks that you can just lay on someone and hold them down with no skill, or that just because someone has big hands they can, with one punch, strike a seasoned mma pro and knock him down. Do you think those things? I think you’re smarter than that.

[quote]As far as the HW division being such a large range, I think that initially it had to due with the lack of depth in terms of HW fighters when the weight classes were created. If they can get some more depth, they should implement a “cruiserweight” class or something similar (like up to 230-240). That would give guys like Randy, Fedor (not that he really needs it), Cro Cop, etc… a weight class that was more suited to their natural fighting weight.

Heck, then maybe even bump the HW weight limit up to 285 like it is in Collegiate wrestling.[/quote]

I’d be for that.

[quote]

Randy even basically said so after their fight. “That’s one big sumbitch.”[/quote]

Couture also said (to Joe Rogan) that he didn’t belong in the HW division. What about Lesnar’s other wins, do you still think that 15 to 20 pounds in the HW division is a big deal?

No one is saying that he sucks at wrestling or has no skill just that technical superiority has not been the driving force behind his success, his attributes have.

His technical superiority (along with his other attributes) is what drove him to the finals of two NCAA tournaments (winning one). His technical skill set is what caused him to drop Randy Couture with a well timed leg sweep from standing position in their fight. His technical superiority is what prevented Frank Mir from being able to get out from bottom position and instead took a beating (see Matt Hughes do a similar move on BJ Penn).

It’s time you give him some credit for having serious technical skill as well as many physical attributes.

[quote]
I’ve given him credit for the skill that he has showcased. I just don’t think it’s been as technically high caliber as you seem to.[/quote]

Maybe because you are fixated on his big hands and the other hype that surrounds him. You even believed that he had 50 pounds over Mir, Herring and the others. He didn’t even have 50 pounds on Couture.

Have you ever seen anyone come to an agreement on any topic with an Internet debate? Ha ha, I have to agree we’re never going to agree on this one. It’s a shame too because you are generally correct regarding so many other things, oh well.

[quote]
Like you said before, let’s just agree to disagree.[/quote]

Fine with me.

I’m not sure that will be a long conversation given the list of those who are currently injured or sick.

197

[quote]Therizza wrote:
Dos Santos was thoroughly unimpressive against CroCop.
[/quote]

I was shocked that Dos Santos was so bad on his feet and that CroCop was even worse. What happened to CroCop?

Is it age?

Needs a ring to fight in and having trouble with a cage?

Other problems of a personal nature?

This is not the same guy I used to love watching in Pride.

198

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Therizza wrote:
Dos Santos was thoroughly unimpressive against CroCop.

I was shocked that Dos Santos was so bad on his feet and that CroCop was even worse. What happened to CroCop?

Is it age?

Needs a ring to fight in and having trouble with a cage?

Other problems of a personal nature?

This is not the same guy I used to love watching in Pride.

[/quote]

CroCrop: I’ve been training like a spartan for 20 years now, my body is worn out. The years caught up to me, I’ve been worn out…I want a normal life. I’m entering a cage and thinking about fishing in Privlaka. You can’t win that way.

http://www.cagepotato.com/worn-out-cro-cop-ponders-retirement-after-rough-outing-ufc-103

199

[quote]101airborne wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Therizza wrote:
Dos Santos was thoroughly unimpressive against CroCop.

I was shocked that Dos Santos was so bad on his feet and that CroCop was even worse. What happened to CroCop?

Is it age?

Needs a ring to fight in and having trouble with a cage?

Other problems of a personal nature?

This is not the same guy I used to love watching in Pride.

CroCrop: I’ve been training like a spartan for 20 years now, my body is worn out. The years caught up to me, I’ve been worn out…I want a normal life. I’m entering a cage and thinking about fishing in Privlaka. You can’t win that way.
[/quote]

Yeah, you could tell that he just didn’t really want to be in there. His heart isn’t in fighting anymore and there’s no way that he’s going to be winning any titles if that’s the case.

200

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
ZEB wrote:

Matt Hughes because he finished in the top 10 at the NCAA tourny.

No, again it’s because his wrestling was very effective and apparent while he was at his peak. I doubt many (MMA fans)care that he finished in the top 10.

That’s not the point, the point is that he finished lower than Lesnar yet got much praise for his great wrestling ability. Lesnar’s wrestling is also “very effective” where are your kudos for him?

When have I ever in this whole thread not given Lesnar credit for being an effective wrestler? Find the quote where I said otherwise.

I never said that you said that. I asked where your kudo’s were for his wrestling ability?
[/quote]

Saying that he is an extremely effective wrestler is the same thing as giving him kudos for his wrestling ability.

Oh, no arguing that point. Lesnar has definitely used his wrestling more effectively than Kos (against top competition anyhow) and like I said, he deserves as much credit as Kos (quite possibly more).

Ok, fair enough.

Technical superiority is not a prerequisite. You absolutely must have at least a moderate level of skill (probably higher than average in all likelihood). But being technically superior doesn’t always equal winning. Being physically superior can make up for and even trump technical superiority in extreme cases (which I would classify Lesnar as being).

Again, I’m sure that Lesnar beat quite a few guys on his way to his NCAA title who were technically superior to him but just couldn’t handle his combination of physical superiority and the skill he does possess. That’s not saying that Lesnar lacks skill, he doesn’t. Just that his winning doesn’t necessarily mean that he was the most technically superior wrestler that year.

Examples of guys who won primarily due to physical superiority, while not being the norm by any means, do exist.

Roy Jones Jr. wasn’t technically superior to a lot of his opponents, but the guy was just so much faster than everyone he stepped into the ring with that he could get away with his “hands down, showboating, leaping in from across the ring” style of boxing and win titles. Later in his career though, once he started to slow down due to age, he started getting caught because he had never really needed to develop solid fundamentals/technique.

I already mentioned Foreman (who actually became a more technical boxer later in his career).

Sapp definitely isn’t more technical than Hoost, yet beat him a couple times.

No, you’re comparing apples to oranges. You’re talking about something that he’s been doing for years, has gained an above average level of skill in, and understands quite well, with something that he’s never done before, has no skill in whatsoever, and probably doesn’t understand much at all.

The fact that the guy even got called up to try out (without any prior experience at all) should point to his freakish athleticism.

Skill does not trump athleticism every time. Again, Horn vs Liddell is a great example. Horn is way more skilled than Liddell, but Liddell’s attributes allowed him to beat Horn.

I’ve said it’s the primary reason for his effectiveness, not that it’s the only reason. His wrestling skill definitely plays a role as well. I mentioned before that Lesnar has wrestling skill, I tried to illustrate with my spectrum model that he isn’t totally physicality, but is more physicality than skill. Stop trying to make it sound like I think he’s only physicality (which was basically the case when he tried out for the NFL).

Which really only proves my point. The only other person who you can name that was able to hold down a highly skilled ground fighter (though hughes’ hold down position utilized his legs to hold down one of BJ’s arms, while Lesnar only used one arm) was another extremely strong guy. That’s my point. You need to be extremely strong to be able to do that, even though it does involve skill as well.

And, Hughes actually probably did have a weight advantage on Penn, since Penn was moving up weight classes and Hughes cut to make 170. Definitely not as much of a weight advantage, though.

I already agreed that he is a better wrestler than Mir. Still, he could not have held Mir down as easily as he did or gained that top control position as easily as he did if he weren’t as strong as he is.

You can keep inserting imaginary bias into my statements all you want, it doesn’t actually mean that it’s there.

Have you ever seen Couture bust up somebody’s face with arm punches? Are you denying that at 4XL gloves size that Lesnar’s hands aren’t huge (second only to Carwin in the UFC)? Are you completely uninformed as to the fact that big hands equal more punching power?

It’s not that Lesnar won by ground and pound that is so dependent on his physical superiority, but the way that he did it. Lots of guys win by ground and pound that aren’t all that physically impressive. But Lesnar is the only person I’ve ever seen bust up somebody’s face like that using arm punches.

Ummm, he’s held the HW belt several times now and was the one who Brock won the belt from. He’s also beaten several other HW’s and fought at HW numerous times, so technically, yeah he is.

And even if you want to argue that he’s a “cruiserweight”, then that still doesn’t say much for the other HW’s as again, he has done the best against Brock to date.

It also proves that he outweighed an opponent by 50 lbs. Name one of those other fighters who has outweighed (even one) their opponents by that much.

Did I though? And was it actually erroneous, seeing as how he actually did outweigh Couture by 50 lbs? And are you arguing that 50 lbs of muscle doesn’t usually bring with it a big time strength advantage? And didn’t I already quote Lesnar’s combine numbers to prove that the guy has freakish speed and power at his size? And is anybody really questioning that he is extremely agile for his size?

Herring has never been anything but a big guy. He’s never been a “good” striker either IMO.

Mir is a good Jiu-jitsu big man, but unless he can get into a good position for a submission, then he isn’t going to be able to pull off a submission in all likelihood. Lesnar is a better wrestler and was able to use that to control the position on the ground once it got there.

I already said that I think Lesnar is better at everything than Herring. His physical superiority just made it that much easier for him to win that fight.

I also said that I think he’s a better wrestler than Mir. I think it’s pretty obvious from watching that fight that Brock knew this and used it to his advantage quite well. He is not a better striker (was actually not doing so well against Frank on the feet) and is not a better submission guy.

Still, the ease with which he beat Mir was highly influenced by his physical superiority as well.

[quote]
As far as the HW division being such a large range, I think that initially it had to due with the lack of depth in terms of HW fighters when the weight classes were created. If they can get some more depth, they should implement a “cruiserweight” class or something similar (like up to 230-240). That would give guys like Randy, Fedor (not that he really needs it), Cro Cop, etc… a weight class that was more suited to their natural fighting weight.

Heck, then maybe even bump the HW weight limit up to 285 like it is in Collegiate wrestling.

I’d be for that.

Weight wise alone, probably not. Weight combined with strength, speed, power, and agility, yeah I think it still makes a significant difference.

Please. Don’t put words in my mouth. I never said anything alone the lines of him having 50 lbs over Mir or Herring. And yeah, he did have 50 lbs on Couture.

I’m not fixated on hype at all. I know from experience what type of advantage having 50 lbs and freakish strength can have one someone. I know that it’s a big reason why Lesnar is champ today.

Well, actually yeah. I’ve seen it (been on both sides) quite a few times.

Haha, no probably not. Still there are a couple of likely candidates and I’d like to hear your thoughts as to who you think would make a good match-up (or test maybe) and why. Nog? Velasquez? Dos Santos? Mir?

201

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

Technical superiority is not a prerequisite. You absolutely must have at least a moderate level of skill (probably higher than average in all likelihood). But being technically superior doesn’t always equal winning. Being physically superior can make up for and even trump technical superiority in extreme cases (which I would classify Lesnar as being).[/quote]

I can’t disagree with this on whole, however you don’t rise to the very top level of two sports, college wrestling and mma without a significant amount of technical superiority. Also, if you actually study Lesnar’s fights and even 8 or 10 of his wrestling matches you will see that this is a man who is not only physically gifted but also displays technical superiority over his opponents.

Now you’re assuming that Lesnar had technically inferior skills to “quite a few guys” having never seen the matches? Okay, sorry my friend but you do have a built in bias.

[quote]
Skill does not trump athleticism every time. Again, Horn vs Liddell is a great example. Horn is way more skilled than Liddell, but Liddell’s attributes allowed him to beat Horn. [/quote]

I think it’s usually a combination of many attributes that goes in to making a champion. I’m simply saying that Lesnar’s technical skill is being overlooked here, and by many.

And I disagree with your assessment. If that were true any big strong and fast country boy, off the farm could step onto an NCAA wrestling mat and win first place. As we both know that does not happen. When you place physical superiority over technical superiority you are not grasping what wrestling is all about. I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen wrestling matches where the obviously stronger and more gifted athelete loses. Wrestling is about technique and in order to be the best in the country you must have superior technique in spades!

I used Hughes as one example, but by no means is he the only example. You seem to like Randy Couture (who doesn’t). Have you noticed that Couture wins his fights by holding his opponent on the ground and beating him senseless? He has submitted maybe 2 opponents the rest is purely wrestling skill (holding them down and punching). But, has anyone pointed this out? Do people demean his skill level because he wins in this fashion? No, and rightly so as he wins by technical superiority on the ground, just as Brock Lesnar has. There are other wrestlers who have had success using the same techniques, and for this they get accolades for their superior ability on the ground. Lesnar, gets accolades for having big hands and being heavy. It’s just crazy! The bias is incredible.

Neither could Couture, Hughes, Coleman, Henderson, Lindlin, Pierre, Sherk or, hey wait, anytime one person is on top of another person strength helps. But, what’s more important than strength is skill for without that most important attribute none of the above (including Lesnar) could have held down any of their opponents. In fact, many times the man on top is not as strong as the one on bottom getting the beating. Unless you think Pierre is stronger than Hughes? There are plenty more examples wher skill trumps strength, plenty.

Sorry, didn’t mean to offend you but there is certainly a bias that you (and many others) have against Lesnar. You showed your bias talking about his large hands (they’re so big he can knock people down) and the incorrect statement that he has 50 pounds over his opponents. Because he is big and strong every single thing that he does is attributed to those qualities when that is simply not the case. You need to look beyond these obvious attributes to see that this is a very, very skilled and technically superior wrestler.

Big hands are a fine thing to have, but far, far more important is how to use them. I had an uncle who was a meat cutter who had huge hands, but he couldn’t knock out a fly. You can have a large hammer, but if you don’t know how to use it, it becomes a worthless tool in your hands. Can you imagine the size of Bob Sapps hands? How many big actors are there with huge hands? How about big football players? Many of them have large hands, so what? Once again your bias will not allow you to look behind any physical attribute to see what has actually propelled Lesnar to the top of the UFC. Keep in mind I am not discounting his physical attributles, I’m just seeing that backing up the physicality is a highly skilled, technically superior wrestler.

[quote].
It also proves that he outweighed an opponent by 50 lbs. Name one of those other fighters who has outweighed (even one) their opponents by that much. [/quote]

If Lesnars 15 to 25 pound weight advantage is so important then how come the following happened?

Gabriel Gonzaga out weighed Randy Couture by about 25 pounds (or greater) on fight night, yet Couture administered a first class beating to him.

Tim Sylvia at 6"8’ and 261 pounds out weighed Couture by about 30 pounds but Couture still defeated him with no trouble.

Yet when he went up against Lesnar all of a sudden Lesnars weight was the deciding factor. Sylvia weighed only 5-10 pounds less than Lesnar. Do you really think that the 5-10 pounds that Lesnar has over Sylvia made that much of a difference in the Couture fight. Or, was it skill (and his other attributes) that caused Lesnar to win? Nor, did the 25 pounds that Gonzaga had on Couture seem to bother him much. Physical attributes only go so far, you must have superior skill as well to rise to the top.

Herring at 6’4" and 250lbs. is a seasoned professional mma fighter who beat the likes of
Cheick Kongo, Enson Inoue, Tom Erikson and took Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira the distance twice in losing to him. Herring with an mma record of 28-14 was defeated by Brock Lesnar because Lesnar was better on his feet AND better on the ground. I’m surprised that you think the 15 pounds Lesnar had over Herring was the contributing factor. It was skill sento, pure skill. If it were merely size Tom Erikson at 6’3" and 280 pounds would have beaten Herring to a pulp.

I agree, the reason that Mir was not able to get into position to pull off a submission is because he was on the ground with someone who was controlling him. He had to fight Lesnar’s fight and that did him in.

I agree, but give Lesnar credit for taking the fight to his strongest area and being able to keep it there, unlike he did in the first Mir fight.

[quote]
Still, the ease with which he beat Mir was highly influenced by his physical superiority as well.[/quote]

This is untrue he had the same physical superiority over Mir in the first fight, but because of his inexperience and over exuberence he lost by submission. If it were size he would have won in their first encounter. So, what happened between the first fight and the second fight? He learned how to deal with a good Jiu-Jitsu man on the ground. In other words, it wasn’t his weight or the size of his hands that mattered but his skill superiority on the ground.

[quote]And maybe like I said, change the subject to who we think should fight for an Interim belt

I’m not sure that will be a long conversation given the list of those who are currently injured or sick.

Haha, no probably not. Still there are a couple of likely candidates and I’d like to hear your thoughts as to who you think would make a good match-up (or test maybe) and why. Nog? Velasquez? Dos Santos? Mir[/quote]

Dos Santos is too slow on his feet (plodding almost). Nog would certainly be a good match-up for Velasquez. I’d have to go with the experience of Nog, but he’d have to watch those hands of Velasquez on the feet. Velasquez gets the takedown but inexperience gets him choked out, at least that’s one version, what’s yours?

202

Brock has had surgery for an intestinal tract infection. Currently unknown whether his fight career is over or not. It was on Sportcenter today.

203

This just in: ZEB has a not so secret man crush and want’s to see Brock’s Lesnar.