[quote]pumped340 wrote:
I’m getting to this pretty late. by the way Elusive…check your PM’s
It seems a lot of you guys who are having a refeed have really low fat, like 50-70g.
I guess it’s different for carb cycling vs. a ckd but shoudln’t fat be a lot higher if your relying on it for more energy? On keto it’s supposed to be 50+% but it seems a lot of these recommendations have it at around 25% or so[/quote]
Higher fat slows digestion and with really high CHO totals, you’re trying to refill glycogen as quickly as possible. I know the Anabolic diet recommends higher fat %, but the refeed period is typically quite a bit longer (~36 hours). Many of us have been following Lyle McDonald’s philosophy to keep fat low (<50g) and protein ~ 1g/lb BW. In addition, many people advocate against high C+F meals, that can lead to a quick layer of adipose tissue buildup (Berardi, Thibs, Shugart to name a few).
The difference between keto and CC would be the source of energy (CHO for CC/fat for keto). Fat and carbohydrates are typically inversely proportional depending on the type of day (high/mod/low).
You guys using refeed while cutting or bulking? Those amounts of carbs you’re consuming are pretty huge… Really, how does it work? I’d like to hear your experiences!
[quote]heavyset wrote:
You guys using refeed while cutting or bulking? Those amounts of carbs you’re consuming are pretty huge… Really, how does it work? I’d like to hear your experiences![/quote]
I’m cutting. So my refeeds are to help reset my down regulated hormones and boost my metabolism for the following 6 days of dieting. It also acts to refill my muscle glycogen so I can train intensely enough throughout the week.
On a side note, my PM problem should be fixed now if anyone is tring to reach me.
Higher fat slows digestion and with really high CHO totals, you’re trying to refill glycogen as quickly as possible. I know the Anabolic diet recommends higher fat %, but the refeed period is typically quite a bit longer (~36 hours). Many of us have been following Lyle McDonald’s philosophy to keep fat low (<50g) and protein ~ 1g/lb BW. In addition, many people advocate against high C+F meals, that can lead to a quick layer of adipose tissue buildup (Berardi, Thibs, Shugart to name a few).
[/quote]
I was talking about low carb days, not the refeeds. As I said in the anabolic diet thread I agree with lyle Mcdonalds recommendations for carb ups more
[quote]phatkins187 wrote:
The difference between keto and CC would be the source of energy (CHO for CC/fat for keto). Fat and carbohydrates are typically inversely proportional depending on the type of day (high/mod/low).[/quote]
Yea I guess I’m just surprised how low they both are on low days. I would expect one of them to be higher on any given day.
I’m personally in favor of more of a CKD style diet to cut but for clean bulking I definitley like some type of carb cycling. I had pretty good results with CT’s carb cycling codex but only did it for 6 weeks because I had to go to a college campus for a month and had to stop because I couldn’t get it as specific as the CCC lays out.
Are most of you using carb cycling for lean gains or cutting fat?
I crammed about 40 pieces of sushi down during my refeed yesterday…yum. Anybody ever eaten at Todai? It’s shit quality sushi but all you can eat! White rice is really tough to wash down, but a cold Kirin Ichiban definitely helped! Banana and pineapple for dessert came out to a total of 2,000 kcal and 380 CHO in one sitting. I AM ALL THAT IS MAN!
[/quote]
Holy crap! There is a Todai behind my house. Why didn’t I think of this refeed mecca?!
There’s also a Mongolian BBQ, AYCE (all you can eat).
Probably would save money over buying groceries, too!
This thread will become as holy as the Anabolic Diet thread. Thanks everyone for your contributions and refeed updates.
I will only use the refeeds while cutting for the reasons elusive said. For bulking I would go with a more typical carb cycling approach with multiple high(er) carb days.
[quote]ajweins wrote:
I will only use the refeeds while cutting for the reasons elusive said. For bulking I would go with a more typical carb cycling approach with multiple high(er) carb days.[/quote]
Thats basically my thoughts on it too. I don’t see the necessity for a higher calorie refeed if bulking
[quote]ajweins wrote:
I will only use the refeeds while cutting for the reasons elusive said. For bulking I would go with a more typical carb cycling approach with multiple high(er) carb days.[/quote]
x2.
This is my plan as well. I do plan on a SUPER high day along with my other High days though and depending on how high that is, it may resemble a refeed day. We’ll see.
[quote]elusive wrote:
ajweins wrote:
I will only use the refeeds while cutting for the reasons elusive said. For bulking I would go with a more typical carb cycling approach with multiple high(er) carb days.
x2.
This is my plan as well. I do plan on a SUPER high day along with my other High days though and depending on how high that is, it may resemble a refeed day. We’ll see.[/quote]
Oh so when you bulk your gonna have carbs around workouts and a big high carb day on the weekend? I personally plan to stick to one or the other but you seem to handle carbs a lot better than I do
For those of you with a slow metabolism I don’t see the need for a Huge carb up + 100-150g of carbs during the week. I would think low carbs all week (ckd) would be more effective unless your very active/doing much more glycogen deplenishing work than normal.
How much more are you going to diet? I remember seeing your pics 3-4 weeks ago and you were already pretty lean. How low are you trying to get body fat wise before you start trying to gain again?
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
elusive wrote:
ajweins wrote:
I will only use the refeeds while cutting for the reasons elusive said. For bulking I would go with a more typical carb cycling approach with multiple high(er) carb days.
x2.
This is my plan as well. I do plan on a SUPER high day along with my other High days though and depending on how high that is, it may resemble a refeed day. We’ll see.
Oh so when you bulk your gonna have carbs around workouts and a big high carb day on the weekend? I personally plan to stick to one or the other but you seem to handle carbs a lot better than I do[/quote]
Well, I plan on hiring Shelby for an offseason package over the summer. I’ve already spoke with him and PLAN on doing so. It really comes down to what he decides. However, I would have myself doing HIGH DAYS on my training days with maybe a SUPER HIGH DAY on my back day (which is my hardest training day). I usually almost never restrict WHEN I have my carbs if gaining weight(muscle) is the goal. When restricting my carbs I focus them at breakfast 1st, then PWO 2nd if I have some more to spare. Thats just the way I prefer to do it. Like you said though, I “handle” carbs just fine.
Well, I plan on hiring Shelby for an offseason package over the summer. I’ve already spoke with him and PLAN on doing so. It really comes down to what he decides. However, I would have myself doing HIGH DAYS on my training days with maybe a SUPER HIGH DAY on my back day (which is my hardest training day). I usually almost never restrict WHEN I have my carbs if gaining weight(muscle) is the goal. When restricting my carbs I focus them at breakfast 1st, then PWO 2nd if I have some more to spare. Thats just the way I prefer to do it. Like you said though, I “handle” carbs just fine. [/quote]
unfortunately I’m not so lucky lol so I would use a more moderate approach.
Isn’t shelby’s article that keeps being posts written for MMA fighters or something?
How much more are you going to diet? I remember seeing your pics 3-4 weeks ago and you were already pretty lean. How low are you trying to get body fat wise before you start trying to gain again?[/quote]
Well, the whole Easter week set me back a bit. I’m now “catching up” to those pics. I may have just gotten back to that level of leaness this week. We’ll see what happens. I was about this lean last summer and told myself that this year I would get leaner. If I can, I will. So, I will. I don’t plan on stopping until I have striated or nearly striated glutes. lol. I still have many options, so to speak. Mainly in the forms of cardio. The weather over here in NY has been getting warmer, so I’ve been playing basketball again lately. Also, I can up my morning cardio and PWO cardio.
Well, I plan on hiring Shelby for an offseason package over the summer. I’ve already spoke with him and PLAN on doing so. It really comes down to what he decides. However, I would have myself doing HIGH DAYS on my training days with maybe a SUPER HIGH DAY on my back day (which is my hardest training day). I usually almost never restrict WHEN I have my carbs if gaining weight(muscle) is the goal. When restricting my carbs I focus them at breakfast 1st, then PWO 2nd if I have some more to spare. Thats just the way I prefer to do it. Like you said though, I “handle” carbs just fine.
unfortunately I’m not so lucky lol so I would use a more moderate approach.
Isn’t shelby’s article that keeps being posts written for MMA fighters or something?[/quote]
The article written about his seminar speech was posted here last week on T-Nation. “A Beginner’s Guide to Carb Cycling” or something like that. Very informative on ratios to use ect.
The refeed isn’t necessary if you’re doing a very short (1-2 week) trim/cut up. If you’re restricting your caloric intake for long periods of time (2-3 months) it’s beneficial for the hormonal and glycogen uptake reasons Lyle McDonald/ Di Pasquale/ the distinguished elusive and others have mentioned.
I know there’s lifelong AD’ers from the Anabolic Diet thread but I’ve decided this is the #1 most easily followed and logical eating lifestyle discussed here. It’s very simple! Cho+Pro are essential to building lean mass and should be eaten during around your workouts. Fat is calorically dense and filling and really satiates your appetite, provides many important healthy hormonal and physiological benefits, but slow digestion and glycogen uptake…so eat it during your stagnant periods.
During a bulk, I would expect it’s fine to combine P+F+C in the same meal to get the necessary calories, especially early in the day as well. For example, I can see the super protein shake (with the addition of peanut butter, yum): http://www.T-Nation.com/free_online_article//the_super_protein_shake_022607
being fine. What are other’s thoughts on the combination of decent amounts of all three macronutrients when carb cycling?
The article written about his seminar speech was posted here last week on T-Nation. “A Beginner’s Guide to Carb Cycling” or something like that. Very informative on ratios to use ect.[/quote]
Oh yea I saw that and thought the fat was too low but looking at it again I guess fat is not the main source of energy
[quote]phatkins187 wrote:
The refeed isn’t necessary if you’re doing a very short (1-2 week) trim/cut up. If you’re restricting your caloric intake for long periods of time (2-3 months) it’s beneficial for the hormonal and glycogen uptake reasons Lyle McDonald/ Di Pasquale/ the distinguished elusive and others have mentioned.
I know there’s lifelong AD’ers from the Anabolic Diet thread but I’ve decided this is the #1 most easily followed and logical eating lifestyle discussed here. It’s very simple! Cho+Pro are essential to building lean mass and should be eaten during around your workouts. Fat is calorically dense and filling and really satiates your appetite, provides many important healthy hormonal and physiological benefits, but slow digestion and glycogen uptake…so eat it during your stagnant periods.
[/quote]
I agree, I think if your cutting you could even afford to have carbs around the workouts AND a carb up. If bulking I don’t see that as really necessary but it’s obviously going to be individual
[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Elusive what is your training like? High volume? Do you do most sets to failure or follow more of a ramping method up to 1-2 top sets per exercise?[/quote]
I do about 16-20 worksets per major body part. 8-12 worksets for muscles like biceps, triceps, calves and forearms. I don’t ramp or pyramid. I keep the work set weight the same (unless for some reason I need to lower it) and aim for 8-12 reps to failure(or right near it). I do 4 sets per exercise. After I have achieved 12 reps for 4 sets at any given exercise, I up the weight for next time. This is how I manly train while trying to pack on size. To be honest, I’m not that methodical while cutting. I still do the same amount of sets and reps, but I’m not training with the same hell bent intensity.
For example, while bulking I may have to do a set of 10 reps for bench. I un rack the bar and get 7 VERY hard reps out (I’ll have a spotter near by). I may hold it up or rack it until I get another rep or 2. Then hold it up or rack until I can get another rep for 10 total. Thats 1 set. That usually happens towards sets 3 or 4 (usually the 4th set). I won’t stop until I hit the goal for that set. Basically, I rest pause my sets (IF I have to) in order to reach my rep range goal. On the other hand, while cutting its another story. Same scenario, I aim for 10 reps but only get 7 VERY hard reps out… sets finished. lol. Enough of that shit. lol. I rack the weight and move on to the next set. I may choose to lower the weight here so I can hit my desired rep range goal. Thats a general overview of how I do things.
Really, how does it work? I’d like to hear your experiences!
and others have mentioned.