[quote]HulkSmash7 wrote:
I think there’s a difference between a cheat day and what elusive is doing. In the MD justin harris interview he said they even had some clients at 2000 CHO, and shelby says in that article you posted they sometimes use super high day. I would say elusive is using a super high day, not a cheat day. It’s still calculated carb intake, not no holds barred eat anything.[/quote]
Agreed…if you’re going to supercomensate your glycogen stores for low CHO during the week, keeping the fat as low as possible IS calculated!
Troponin advocates true carb cycling where refeeds aren’t necessary because high CHO days are incorporated into your weekly diet (typically on your hardest workout day). The fats are supposed to be kept as low as possible and protein is about 1gm/lb…sound familiar?
My macro’s are adjusted to the ratios mentioned in the article. I never said that I’m currently following 8x BW at the moment. I only dropped that low to allow for depletion/supercompensation. Like I said, this is a much more moderate approach.
I’m setting this up, ready to roll on it next week, but I plan on coming off my maintainence split routine, and hitting the full body routine again. Currently 217 @ about 18%. Ideally looking to shift about 2lb a week fat for the next 12 weeks.
Routine is
Squat or DL (alternate W/O’s)
Bench Press
Dip
Pull Up/Inverted Row
Military Press
Ab work (focussed on fixing APT)
Some Bi/Tri iso if I feel like it
All about 6RM for 5 reps or 12RM for 10, again alternate.
Cardio/ES work on 2 days a week initially, a third if I feel I need it.
M-FB
T-ES
W-FB
T-Off
F-FB
S-ES
S-Off
Obviously I cant designate a high day to all my FB days, or progress will be sub optimal. Should I go to say 1 high day, i’m thinking Weds here as i’ll have trained 3 days straight, moderate on the 2 other weights days, and low on the others, so
Mon-Mod
T-Low
W-High
T-Low
F-Mod
S-Low
S-Low
Or should I go high on the Monday and coast through on the glycogen for the rest of the week?
Your workouts will be better with option B…IMO. The energy required for three consecutive moderate or high intensity training sessions will be pretty substantial so I’d recommend doing the high day beforehand.
Good luck and keep us posted on your progress and fat loss numbers!
High day
Carbs: 2.5 grams per pound of body weight (217x2.5=542.5g CHO)
Protein: 1.25 grams per pound of body weight (217x1.25=271g PRO)
Fat: as little as possible
Cal Breakdown: 2170 CHO/1084 PRO/Trace FAT = 3254kcal
Moderate days
Carbs: 1.25 grams per pound of body weight (217x1.5=271g CHO)
Protein: 1.5 grams per pound of body weight (217x1.5=325.5 PRO)
Fat: 0.15-0.35 grams per pound of body weight (217x0.25=54.25g FAT)
Cal Breakdown: 1084 CHO/1302 PRO/ 488 FAT = Total 2874kcal
Low
Carbs: 0.5 grams per pound of body weight (217x0.5=108.5g CHO)
Protein: 1.5 grams per pound of body weight (217x1.5=325.5 PRO)
Fat: 0.15-0.35 grams per pound of body weight (217x0.25=54.25g FAT)
Cal Breakdown: 434 CHO/1302 PRO/ 488 FAT = Total 2224kcal
Basically I eat at moderate in terms of calories everyday anyway, but more fat than CHO, so the low days should be pretty good for fat loss, the moderate days will help with workouts as it’ll triple my carbs from current and the high day will just be kept real clean as I wont need to go crazy with my CHO, although I have no idea what 500g CHO looks like!!!
Looking at your numbers made me realize how different Thib’s Carb Cycling Codex is from the Troponin program. I would actually prefer the Troponin model in terms of leaning, but Thib’s for bulking.
The Carb cycling codex article recommends a bit more fat, especially on a bulk. You can find the calculator Pro-A-gression created to discover this for yourself.
Another difference is the protein and fat ratios are constant on Thib’s program while they change on Shelby’s.
What’s common between the two is the calories SHOULD remain constant and are therefore not as important as CHO.
I guess we can’t be that surprised about Thib’s CHO being lower than the Shelby plan…he loves his pro/fat diets. There just doesn’t seem to be enough variation on Thib’s plan for it to be effective.
you guys think carb cycling would be a bad idea for a football player? would i be doing too much running for the program? also i have about 4 very intense workouts through out the week, how would i figure the high, moderate, and low carb days?
That is a leaning out diet by the by! I have had a look through the calculator that Pro-a-gression posted up, but they Troponin one seems much more suitable for me based on my body fat percentage (around 20%).
If you take Thibs article, my maintainence comes out around 3400kcal, with the 20% drop for fat loss 2750 or so. Thats with the moderate activity box checked.
So Troponin has me lower, which is going to help with fat loss, more variance in carbs, a Thibs high day was 335 and a low 201, playing 500g and 100g high to low on Troponin, which seems like a much more ‘anabolic’ spread on the high days. There is 100kcal difference between the two on my medium days, about 200 more on my high days and about 200 less on my low days if I go with the Troponin numbers.
A question i’ve raised before, will FFB (well clearly still FB) status affect peoples recommendations on Troponin? Obviously its a stick to clean carbs style deal, but I worry about dumping 500g carbs into my system!
Here’s my Shelby plan…I used the upper bound for bulking and lower bound for dieting. Doesn’t seem like very many calories even on a bulk which makes me think you’re safe in terms of not gaining too much fat. Again, lower in total kCal than the Carb cycling codex.
[quote]sidewalkdances wrote:
That is a leaning out diet by the by! I have had a look through the calculator that Pro-a-gression posted up, but they Troponin one seems much more suitable for me based on my body fat percentage (around 20%).
If you take Thibs article, my maintainence comes out around 3400kcal, with the 20% drop for fat loss 2750 or so. Thats with the moderate activity box checked.
So Troponin has me lower, which is going to help with fat loss, more variance in carbs, a Thibs high day was 335 and a low 201, playing 500g and 100g high to low on Troponin, which seems like a much more ‘anabolic’ spread on the high days. There is 100kcal difference between the two on my medium days, about 200 more on my high days and about 200 less on my low days if I go with the Troponin numbers.
A question i’ve raised before, will FFB (well clearly still FB) status affect peoples recommendations on Troponin? Obviously its a stick to clean carbs style deal, but I worry about dumping 500g carbs into my system![/quote]
FFB have nothing to worry about. Don’t doubt the plan. It WILL work (as will most diets) if you stick to it over time. The high carb days are set up during days where you burn the most glycogen (carbs) and overall calories. By the time this day comes you should be moderately depleted anyway. Theres nothing to worry about. If you look on TroponinNutrition.com, Shelby has ripped up some clients that started very much overweight. Good luck.
Here’s my Shelby plan…I used the upper bound for bulking and lower bound for dieting. Doesn’t seem like very many calories even on a bulk which makes me think you’re safe in terms of not gaining too much fat. Again, lower in total kCal than the Carb cycling codex.[/quote]
On the bulk though, you would be doing more high carb days with an occasional VERY high day. Definitly help keeps an individual lean while trying to add size.
Here’s my Shelby plan…I used the upper bound for bulking and lower bound for dieting. Doesn’t seem like very many calories even on a bulk which makes me think you’re safe in terms of not gaining too much fat. Again, lower in total kCal than the Carb cycling codex.
On the bulk though, you would be doing more high carb days with an occasional VERY high day. Definitly help keeps an individual lean while trying to add size.[/quote]
Good point sensei. Damn this shit is cool…does anyone know if Carb cycling is a relatively new idea? I know the early days of bodybuilding really advocated more of an Anabolic Diet approach with the majority (read: A SHITLOAD) of calories came from pro/fat.
I’d also like to know the kinds of CHO to eat while cycling. It sounds like one could utilize Berardi’s 7 rules in conjunction and keep it pretty clean. Of course higher GI stuff around workouts.
In addition to Elusive’s list, I would throw in fruit, quinoa, and beans. But also, be wary of the amount of fiber you take in on high days, it could really mess you up. BIG TIME.
And also, when was the last time anybody read some of Cy Wilson’s stuff, I recently reread his article on fruit. Check it out, it’s great.
[quote]dratner wrote:
In addition to Elusive’s list, I would throw in fruit, quinoa, and beans. But also, be wary of the amount of fiber you take in on high days, it could really mess you up. BIG TIME.
[/quote]
Really mess you up big time wha? Specifics please…I have a high day coming up
[quote]phatkins187 wrote:
dratner wrote:
In addition to Elusive’s list, I would throw in fruit, quinoa, and beans. But also, be wary of the amount of fiber you take in on high days, it could really mess you up. BIG TIME.
Really mess you up big time wha? Specifics please…I have a high day coming up ;)[/quote]
He meant, if you’re not careful. Meaning 60grams of fiber out of no where will leave you with alot of gut discomfort throughout the day. You’ll probably end up shitting a fiber brick. lol. At the size of these high days (Troponin’s Carb Cycle) I don’t think you’ll have to worry too much about fiber adding up too high however. With the giant refeeds I was doing last week, if I didn’t watch my fiber, I would’ve needed a c-section. lol.
EXXXXXXXXXXAAAAAAACCCTTTLLYYYY. it is really painful if you over do it. it is unavoidable however that you’re going to be eating a lot of it, so I would advise drinking plenty of water. I mean plenty.
