Since the main topic of this awesome thread is the refeed (centered around elusive’s ridiculous appetite for carbs once a week), why don’t we get some opinions from the masses on the different types of food.
Are there any significant differences between a low GI, organic, “clean” carb-up and a free-for-all, low fat, processed, high-GI sugar binge?
For example, lets say one of our beloved T-Nation member friends ate 2,000 carbs (8,000 kcal) in fat free Jell-o pudding, white bread, assorted hard candies, a bag of granulated sugar, etc and another carb-loader ate the same amount of carbs consisting of oatmeal, long-grain rice, sweet potatoes, green vegetables, and the like.
Lots of differences here. One is high fiber…good or bad?
One has a much more profound effect on insulin (I think)…good or bad?
Other pressing questions. What effect does sodium have on the carbup? Justin Harris has said it’s beneficial because it allows the carbs to be carried to muscles and stored as glycogen (transports). This in turn can pull water away from fat storage.
This is a super awesome informative thread so let’s get some thoughts yo!
In my opinion, a clean carb up would be preferred. But when you’re eating 2000+ carbs, that just isn’t very realistic. For my 670 carb refeed I’ll be eating as clean as I can. (fruits, veggies, and whole grains)
Okay well I guess I’ll be the first to comment…okay, I think there are enormous differences in the two;
Eating both 2,000 calories of high glycemic carbs as opposed to 2,000 calories of cleans will raise blood sugar, unless it’s all broccoli. But you’d shit. Okay, however, the difference is to what degree. If you’re a diabetic, then you’re fucked. But if you’re a T-man who cares a lot about blood sugar levels but not life or death, then yes obviously the cleaner the better.
Blood sugar levels aside, obviously the cleaner carbs are more nutrient dense, therefor, that sort of refeed is just better for your overall health. If you at 10 sweet potatoes, 5 bowls of oats, 10 cups of blueberries, you’d overload yourself, no doubt, but you would be giving your body a fucking boat load of excellent nutrients.
In terms of throwing your metabolism out of whack, and re-charging it, eating “not so clean” carbs would probably be more effective. If your body is so used to being clean 90% of the time, then eating foods not part of the meal plan will definitely throw it out of whack.
Psychologically, eating unclean carbs would be better for me.
I think a clean CU would be better, especially for FFB’s.
The insulin spike from the junk could be crazy, the cleaner you keep it, i’m thinking low GI as well, would be beneficial here.
Thats where i’m coming, from the FFB status. Carb ups for me wont need to be as severe I dont think. If you have a pretty good metabolism/good insulin handling, then you can get away with more junk carbs IMO.
In fact, on a cutting CC, I will put my neck out to say I can avoid a traditional refeed and just have moderate (around 200g) CHO on my hardest day. For me, quad day is the only day I struggle with energy levels. If I go back to full bodies, then it might be 3 moderate days per week.
[quote]dratner wrote:
Okay well I guess I’ll be the first to comment…okay, I think there are enormous differences in the two;
Eating both 2,000 calories of high glycemic carbs as opposed to 2,000 calories of cleans will raise blood sugar, unless it’s all broccoli. But you’d shit. Okay, however, the difference is to what degree. If you’re a diabetic, then you’re fucked. But if you’re a T-man who cares a lot about blood sugar levels but not life or death, then yes obviously the cleaner the better.
Blood sugar levels aside, obviously the cleaner carbs are more nutrient dense, therefor, that sort of refeed is just better for your overall health. If you at 10 sweet potatoes, 5 bowls of oats, 10 cups of blueberries, you’d overload yourself, no doubt, but you would be giving your body a fucking boat load of excellent nutrients.
In terms of throwing your metabolism out of whack, and re-charging it, eating “not so clean” carbs would probably be more effective. If your body is so used to being clean 90% of the time, then eating foods not part of the meal plan will definitely throw it out of whack.
Psychologically, eating unclean carbs would be better for me.[/quote]
Good points, especially the psychological aspect. Some consider a carb load as a cheat day and abuse the high GI foods for additional reasons to refilling glycogen.
I’m still thinking the total number of carbs has a more profound impact on the anabolic effect of a refeed than the types of carbs does. If you’re depleted, your muscles will soak up every bit of glycogen it can, regardless of the source.
The FFB aspect could have more to do with insulin sensitivity. I agree that lower carb diets generally work better for FFB’s because once you have a fat cell, you’ve always got it! BIG downside. This really emphasizes why it’s important to get a hard workout in on your refeed days to enhance the anabolism and glycogen uptake.
I think the FFB thing is important, as CC’ing is a much better way of mass gaining for most FFB’s, without gaining back a lot of fat.
Thats why for mine i’m thinking low GI carbs, and taking it really slowly adding them in. As mentioned in my last post, I think a FFB really has to bust ass in the gym on that carb heavy day, otherwise its a can of worms.
Depends on the size of the carb up/re feed. If you’re aiming for a large refeed, then clean foods would be unrealistic as HulkSmash mentioned. Also, the amount of fiber you would take in from all the fiber of clean foods would tie your gut in a knot. Also, lets assume you attempted to get 2,000carbs from potatoes, oats, brown rice, whole wheat pasta ect… You’re insulin will STILL be through the roof all day. So dirty or clean, 2,000 carbs will have your insulin elevated all day just the same.
Also, if training properly throughout the week to set yourself up for a giant refeed I think junky carb ups are better because they will replenish glycogen quicker than cleaner sources. Quicker glycogen replenishment will help with supercompensation (the ability to hold more glycogen than normal), at least according to Lyle McDonald. Also, the quicker and more you refill your muscle glycogen the faster and better you adjust your hormones like leptin, ghrelin, T3 ect…
Having said ALL of that. If your refeed isn’t gigantic and is moderate, I don’t see the need to make it junk food. Clean sources will do the job here. I also want to mention that fructose does almost nothing to help this hormonal shift that the refeed helps with, so fruits are useless on this day.
As for the sodium. Yeah, sodium helps the muscle uptake glycogen along with water. If your having a junk food refeed however, your foods are most likely high in sodium anyway (Shitloading type foods) so you don’t have to worry about it. I heavily salt my meals anyway, so this isn’t really a concern of mine.
QFT elusive. It’s interesting you mention McDonald because he doesn’t advocate AGAINST junky refeeds, but he also recommends eating from cleaner carb sources. If the hormone adjustment is quicker and more dramatic with a fast uptake of glycogen, shouldn’t a refeed start with as many high GI carbs as possible? I didn’t know the two where related…
Thanks for the insight on fructose! Five servings a day of fruit (~5 g fructose) is really all the liver can handle to turn into glycogen on any diet.
Will insulin still be through the roof on a moderate (~500-700g) carbup if the foods consist of mainly low GI carbs spread out over a day? Probably not as much as high GI carbs, come to think of it. Or does insulin not have a linear relationship with glycemic index?
[quote]phatkins187 wrote:
QFT elusive. It’s interesting you mention McDonald because he doesn’t advocate AGAINST junky refeeds, but he also recommends eating from cleaner carb sources. If the hormone adjustment is quicker and more dramatic with a fast uptake of glycogen, shouldn’t a refeed start with as many high GI carbs as possible? I didn’t know the two where related…
Thanks for the insight on fructose! Five servings a day of fruit (~5 g fructose) is really all the liver can handle to turn into glycogen on any diet.
Will insulin still be through the roof on a moderate (~500-700g) carbup if the foods consist of mainly low GI carbs spread out over a day? Probably not as much as high GI carbs, come to think of it. Or does insulin not have a linear relationship with glycemic index?[/quote]
Lyle recommends starting the refeed with junkier/faster digesting carbs (to start the shifting of downregulated hormones and prime supercompensation) and then moving towards clean sources.
Insulin WILL be elevated at times on a refeed day, but if your aiming for a moderate refeed, it can definitly be controlled with better cleaner carbs. My point before was that 2,000carbs, no matter the source or how fast they digest will keep insulin elevated throughout the day. No way around that. However, at smaller refeed amounts, cleaner sources can avoid this. Whether or not insulin has a linear relationship to the glycemic index is another story and is most likely not important for this thread anyway. (Milk and ice cream are low on the G.I but are very insuligenic, for example).
What about amount and types of cardio while on a cutting carb cycle? What is everyone’s opinion?
Do HIIT? If so, at what intervals and how long, how many times per week? No HIIT? If no, what kind of energy systems work? What is the best timing for cardio? After heavy lifting, in the morning fasted, etc? What about lactate producing workouts like Thibs recommends?
I personally do low intensity cardio before breakfast in the mornings. 3-3.2mph on a 5% incline anywhere from 30-60mins. I don’t know if its the best, but its what I do.
hmmm, well it depends…if your calories are low, then I’d keep cardio low as well. But if your keeping them at base level, then doing some HIIT would be okay, but I would advise a liquid carb/protein drink afterwards, because they tend to be extremely taxing on the CNS (if you really push yourself)
Personally, I like doing lactic acid training when cutting, and only do 15 minutes of low intensity stationary bike after the sessions. If I do too much cardio (calories at 2500) then my muscle goes bye bye.
On off days, I jump rope at very high intensity, 1 minute on, 1 minute off, for ten rounds. So 20 minutes. This is always followed by some form of carbs.
ESW I feel like is a very personal thing. I feel like some guys can get real lean by doing lots of cardio, and some can’t. I’m the latter. If I do too much cardio, especially on a caloric restricted diet, no matter what intensity, my muscles just go to waste. So I’ve found what works for me, and stick with it. Any thoughts?
oh and HulkSmash, I’m not stalking you, but I would venture to say that you and I have similar body types. You’re 6’2, around 195, 14 bodyfat. I’m 6’1, 200, 12%…but my point is, I’ve found that for taller people, extensive esw or cardio is too draining on our bodies. Just something I’ve experience, and noticed with guys who have similar builds as me. Any thoughts?
dratner, I’ve also found that HIIT isn’t the best for fat loss for me. After reading a Dr Clay article, I kept my calories more at maintenance and added HIIT a few times a week. For a month I didn’t really lose any fat. Then I decided to start carb cycling and dropped my calories to 5-600 below maintenance. I switched cardio to brisk walking after heavy lifting sessions and 2 lactate sessions per week. I also have muay thai once a week, which is actually kind of taxing. But the results im seeing now are so much better than when I was doing HIIT. For me, a calorie deficit and lower intensity cardio seems to do the trick.
I know exactly what article youre talking about, and it had the same effect on me. I ramped up my HIIT and it did nothing. man, I’ve been through so much cardio nonsense that I could shoot myself. it’s tough, you know? So many people advocate HIIT this, HIIT that, and I did it for so long and I just didn’t lose any fat. Little did I know that that my muscle wasted away instead. I think there should be more emphasis on the peoples body types and how they react to any ESW.
Poliquin is seriously ANTI AEROBIC. Have you read his german body comp? He makes an unbelievably compelling argument against aerobic work, and firmly believes that through diet and lactic acid training one can get extremely lean. I don’t agree with him 100%, but I sure do agree with him 90%.
I feel any added cardio on a cut is great for losing fat. The lactate inducing sessions are much harder on the CNS and can be quite catabolic. Try sticking to lower volume, higher weight in the gym when you’re on a caloric deficit and focus on maintaining strength. Don’t worry about losing that hard earned muscle, especially if you’re refilling glycogen with PWO drinks.
HIIT is great because it doesn’t take very long and is much easier on the CNS. I do it on off days, hopefully 2-3 times a week. It’s also great right before the weekend carbup because it can deplete the crap out of you! I used to be a distance runner but it’s just too difficult to make gains either in the gym or on the pavement at the same time…so I’ve stayed away from steady state cardio.
After weights, I do around 15-20 mins @ 3.5 on 5 degree incline to keep the sweat going…heart rate between 125-135.
If you’re already lean (less than 12%), you can probably afford to skip the cardio if you’re cutting calories. I’m a tad higher BF so I definitely feel it helps…even though it SUCKS.
I think what is important to consider is that cardio might benefit those with slower metabolisms - e.g, those who tend to have less LBM - as a supplement for revving up metabolism in place of metabolically active tissue (muscle).
Maybe that is why it benefits less those who already have a decent amount of muscle on their frame.
For me, HIIT feels more taxing on the CNS than the lactate producing sessions. At least, that’s how I seem to respond. Cardio does seem to be pretty individual, but it’s good to get everyones take on it.