Carb-Cycling

Training Competitive Bodybuilding
41

Kyle (kbattis), you asked about how I use Hot-Rox & an ECA stack. I actually use both. I use an ECA stack at 6:00 am and noon. I use Hot-Rox at 6:00 pm and midnight.

My one caution to you, should you decide to try taking those two products in that way is to start slowly with the Hot-Rox – say 1 @ 6:00 pm and one at midnight – and assess your tolerance. Unlike an ECA stack, the sclaremax in Hot-Rox will build in your system. Hot-Rox is a product that becomes more effective over time. It’s possible that at a certain point you could have trouble sleeping because you’re too energized.

I actually consider Hot-Rox the more effective of the two products (especially what I’m hearing about the newly formulated Hot-Rox that’s about to be released), but I like the CNS kick I get from an ECA stack, and I especially like the annorectic (hunger blunting) properties of ephedrine.

42

Big Red Dog

if you are 6 foot and 155lbm how do you expect to burn off more fat at those low calorie levels? You need to put on some muscle. have your lifts been going up in the gym? do you get sore from your workouts? How well do you recover? You need to focus on putting on some lbm on a clean diet: high protein, clean fats, enough carbs at the right time. Just have some patience. laters pk

43

Interesting diet.

Care to tell us where you got it from and cite to the original author?

That would be appropriate would it not? Especially science to directly plagarize many portions of it.

Or did you think that by changing a name or two and adding some numbers was “creative.”

44

TT, I’ve been reading this thread and possibly thinking about trying this diet. I am guessing one can attempt this diet without knowing their bf %? I don’t know mine and am not really concerned with the #, could I just go by the mirror?

45

Twin Peak!!! Great to see you here.

For those of you who don’t know him, Twin Peak is one of the gurus of carb cycling.

Yes, I learned a lot from you. You inlfuenced me greatly, along with a few others who’ve written on the topic, in the time I’ve been studying carb and caloric cycling.

Please feel free to jump in.

46

Great thread. I’m thinking this can be a great way for me to add variety to my diet to acheive my goals. I’ve been doing the T-Dawg variation of 70-100 g on non training days and 130-175 on training days.

I’m currently losing about a lb a week of fat but it is slowing. How would carb cycling work for me?

Mon: Training Day 175 G carbs
Tue: Training Day 175 G carbs
Wed: No workout: 50 G carbs
Thurs: Same as Mon
Fri: Same as Tue
Saturday: No Workout: 50 G Carbs
Sun: VNC

How would this be?

Thanks

walleye

47

Terry, have we met? If so, I apologize, since I don’t recall.

Anyway, thanks for the intro.

Not to be a prig, but much of what you wrote above are direct quotes from my article, which is copyright protected.

I wouldn’t even mind you leaving the quotes there, if it didn’t come off as if you were trying to use my words as your own.

I don’t want it removed or anything, as information is information, and if it helps folks here, terrific.

However, I would like my work quoted, where appropriate, and the articles I wrote linked to.

Thanks much.

Oh, and if I can be of any help, ask away.

48

Twin Peak, no, we haven’t met, though I’ve read your work. In fact there was a time I immersed myself in it.

There are a lot of things I carry in my head, numbers approaches, percentages, multiples. I do the same thing here on T-Mag. I read stuff and use it over and over again in the course of answering people’s questions. In fact, it’s really the numbers I love, crunching, analyzing and tweaking.

Let me go ahead and drop you an email. With any luck I can do that this weekend. My computer is in for repair, and I’m using a pre-production model that has email disabled. If there are direct quotes, that’s something that can be fixed.

Once again, your contributions in this area are substantial, and you’ve changed a lot of lives (and people’s body comp) for the better. What I’m working with is going to continue to evolve because I draw from a lot of different sources. I’m sure no two people approach things in the same way. However, if you have the time it would be great to have you here and participating. Carb cycling is not a subject that’s been discussed here much.

Anyway, all of that aside, I look forward to talking to you!!!

49

Hey, there, Big Red Dawg. Good thing I just had my cup of coffee, cuz you’ve asked some great questions, there; ones I’d best have my wits about me before I answer. (grin)

You have concerns about the amount of calorie you’ll be taking in. The only thing that is different from day to day is the amount of carbs you’re taking in. But since you alternately deplete and refill glycogen, it is unlikely that the carbs you take in on a HC day will do anything but refill glycogen stores. Since glycogen stores are depleted, it is unlikely that the carbs you take in will go to fat.

Remember, here, that one of the basic premises of the CC diet is that you eat until you are full and satisfied and don’t wish to eat further. The body (mind and stomach) are self-regulating (and even self-limiting).

Re HC days, the only thing you need to make sure of is that you meet the minimum (2g CHO x TBW). It is unlikely that you would exceed the maximum.

Plateaus. People often experience plateuas on a diet. The body becomes accustomed to a certain caloric intake and activity level and seems to adjust. I guess that’s how we’ve survived as a species.

It’s because of plateaus the body’s tendency to down-regulate itself in times of “famine” that BBs and researchers have been experimenting with cheat meals and refeeds and researching leptin levels.

Because you will be alternating between high, low and (virtually) no carbs, the body will never get the chance to become accustomed to a caloric intake it can count on. Metabolically cycling carbs and calories keeps it in a constant state of confusion.

One of the things about the CC diet is that it can really play games with your head. Weight will fluctuate wildly. You’re going to feel bloated after HC days. You just have to put the blinders on and follow the plan. Let me just say that CC is not a diet for a person who only haphazzardly diets or for someone who wants to be able to go out with the guys on the weekend and have a few drinks. It requires precision. If you’re willing to play by the rules, I’ll support your efforts and help you make the adjustments you need to make along the way.

My results were different than apaynes’ (but so were my eating patterns). Even though I put on some scale weight, my BF% has continued to drop. I’m within a couple of pounds of my goal LBM weight and only about 8 pounds of BF away from my goal BF%. A scale increase is not what most people want to see when they’re trying to cut. However, I have to say that even with the scale weight gain, I just keep moving closer and closer to my goals; goals being a specific amount of LBM and a precise BF%.

Once again I am worried about how my body will react to the large amount of increase in carbs.

You will see a scale weight increase switching from T-Dawg! Absolutely. However, a scale weight increase does not mean an increase in BF or BF%. You’re going to be refilling glycogen stores. Don’t try easing into it. Just give it a 100% effort. Play by the rules. What’s one month out of your life?

What I would recommend is that you purchase some Accu-Measure 2000 calipers. They’re not at all expensive, and they’re easy to use. It’s a one-site pinch/measure, right above the hip bone. They “click” when you apply the correct amount of pinch pressure. Don?t worry what the actual percentage is so much as the actual millimeter measurements from test to test. Whatever the scale is doing (and I’ll help you with that part of it), if your BF% is going down, you’ll know that you’re on the road to success.

Total caloric intake. Should this be ignored on a CC diet?

Try it this way, BRD. You have precise protein and fat numbers to hit day in and day out. Yes, that translates into a specific number of calories. You also have a precise amount of carbs to eat on 2 of your 3 different days. Your HC day you’re supposed to eat at least 2 times TBW in grams and more than that, at least until you?re full, happy and satisfied. No, you’re not ignoring total caloric intake. The eating patterns can be adjusted after the first couple of 2 or 3 weeks. All I’m asking you to do is track your BF in the meantime.

How does that sound? Did I answer all your questions?

50

Tampa Terry, Twin Peak:

I’ve heard of carbohydrate cycling as a one-week means of contest preparation. But here you’re saying it works as well for longer-term cutting or bulking diets?

Also, I’m familiar with Berardi’s principles of P+C, P+F meals and tapering off carbs as the day progresses (unless in post-workout nutrition).

Is this type of carb cycling a form of scaled up nutrition timing so that the emphasis is on the day as opposed to (or in concert with) the time of day?

Thanks,
Jeff

51

Jeff, there’s the pre-contest prep you referred to which involves manipulating levels of salt, water, carbs/glycogen and even fat (IMTG). But that’s very different from a carb cycling diet, where the goal is to create an environment conducive to fat loss and LBM gain.

The former only lasts a couple of weeks. It’s intense, highly focused, and you’ll see dramatic changes in appearance hour by hour towards the end, leading up to the time the BB competitor gets on stage.

Carb cycling as is being discussed in this thread is just a dietary approach that involves high carb days, low carb days and no carb days.

52

Hey, snippdawg, I only have one concern. CC is actually a pretty rigid and precise kinda diet. There are rules and precise numbers to hit. And it’s not a diet that’s going to work if you start making substitutions and changing things around and don’t really want to measure and weigh and track things.

So on the one hand, knowing your BF isn’t necessary (you could use your TBW), however, if measuring, weighing, recording and quantifying just aren’t your thing, it might not be the best choice of diets for you.

Not saying yea or nay, just throwing that out for your consideration while you’re evaluating the approach.

What I would recommend, though, is that you get one of those Accu-Measure 2000 calipers. They’re not at all expensive, and they’re easy to use. It’s only a one-point test, right above the hip. Just be precise when you measure, (grin), take 2 or 3 readings, exactly the same way each time, and average the 3. It doesn’t matter so much what your BF% is. However, determining that you are losing BODY FAT and not just water weight or glycogen or even muscle is critical information.

Part of making this diet work is measuring how your body responds and making adjustments from there.

Give it some thought!

53

Walleye, it sounds like you’re trying to blend the diet you’re doing currently with a second, entirely different, type of diet.

Unfortunately, it’s an either/or type of situation. You should stick with what you’re doing currently or switch to CC and play by the rules.

Based on your workout schedule, I would probably recommend the following eating patterns:

Mon: H
Tue: L
Wed: N
Thu: H
Fri: L
Sat: N
Sun: L

But the thing is you don’t just “pick” an amount of carbs. It’s based on CC Diet rules; i.e., TBW.

How do I think it will work?

  • If you play by the rules and follow the plan, it will work beautifully. And there are mechanisms in place for adjusting eating patterns to ensure continued progress. Also, as you lose weight, the numbers for (P/F/C) change, too, along the way.

If you follow your version? (shrug & grin) I have absolutely no idea, walleye.

54

Tampa-Terry,

Excellent posts. Precise and articulate.

I did a similar carb cycling program back in the Cybergenics days.

Days 1-3 were comprised of eating LBM x 2 grams of protein and less than 100 grams of carbs. Days 4-7 were comprised of 1.5 grams protein x lbm, 4 x lbm in carbs. Fats were always kept as low as possible.

I followed it to a tee and saw dramatic body comp changes for the better. I’ve never been able to eat that much and get lean at the same time since.

My question is this: How does this method 3 low - 4 high or carb cycling compare with the zig-zag type approach you explained above.

As others have said, you are the most significant contributor to this forum. Thanks!

55

Pats, you touched on something that’s really amazed me. Maintenance calories is generally somewhere in the range of 15 x LBM. MY maintenance calories have always been a much lower multiple, closer to 12 (1,500 kCal not that long ago), which meant I needed to diet at ridiculously low calories.

Right now I am dieting/cutting successfully at a multiple of 15 (1,941 kCal)!!! Just like you said, I’m eating more calories than I ever have in my life, yet if I diet precisely (no little detours, middle-of-the-night breakdowns, snacks, bites or “tastes”), I’m losing scale weight and and BF, both. Before, when I was dieting a little more “loosely,” I was gaining scale weight. But even then, I was watching my BF% drop.

There are so many different ways to cycle carbs and calories. My belief is that overfeeding (a HC day) really revs up the metabolism. Since you’re carb depleted, the body takes a very high percentage of the carbs you take in and refills glycogen stores, with very little, if any, going to fat. From there. When you follow a HC day with a lower carb day (VNC or LC), your body hasn’t yet down-regulated itself. It’s still rev’d up, burning calories, even though you’re taking in a lesser amount of calories.

It’s a well known fact that with most diets, the body’s metabolism slows down. Too much of a deficit for too long, and the body adapts by running colder and slower, burning less calories. Alternating between HC, LC and VNC days seems to keep the body from adapting to what it thinks is starvation and running, slower and colder.

I’ve said it before, CC is a great way to repair a metabolism that’s been shot due to dieting at too severe/low a deficit and/or too much cardio.

56

For snipp:

I do somewhat of a carb cycling diet, however I play it by ear. When I feel lethargic and run down (and I know it is not due to sleep deprivation) I up my carbs for that day (usually a workout day) and on days I feel full of energy I lower the carb intake. My carbs will range from 60-180 depending on the day and how I feel. Although this is not “the carb cycling diet” it is a diet that uses carb cycling.

I do count calories and macronutrients using an excel spread sheet, which makes tracking all the info painless. However, I do not track body fat, just check aesthetically.

I also follow Westside style routines and have locked in my weight at 163. I could get lower, but I feel I’ll be too drained to get the most out of my workouts which is most important. I want to get up to 167-168 and stay their. This will allow me to compete in the 165lb weight class without worrying about cutting lots of weight (my wrestling days are over :)).

Carb cycling and lower carb diets can work quite well when training for powerlifting IMO.

57

Thanks TT and aaronm. No I don’t have a problem counting calories and such. I measure out all of my food when I eat except for some meals I take at work. But I try to eat clean at least 90% of the time. I have tried using some of those calipers before, the plastic white ones?, and it always said I was like 9% or something which I know is not true. I don’t have abs. I am not really interested in getting really cut. Just a little leaner and I am interested in gaining some more muscle without pushing my weight to far up. I am 5’9" and weigh around 168-169. When I eventually compete in powerlifting I want to compete in the 165 class.

58

I’m dog tired and going to bed soon, but how long/often should the high carb versus low carb be cycled. Is it two weeks on one week off? Or is it done in another way? If it’s sokmewhere in this already just laugh at me and call me an idiot, but I didn’t see it on my skim through.

59

Snippdawg, I’ve tried the cheap, plastic calipers, too. I agree that they were pretty close to useless. The Accu-Measure 2000 calipers, though, have worked well for me. It’s a great tool for measuring progress and changes in body comp.

If, over the course of a month, you gained (or lost) 5 pounds, you probably couldn’t tell me whether it was due to loss/gain of LBM, BF, hydration levels, glycogen stores. And what IF you actually lost a few pounds of fat while putting on a pound or two of muscle? It might not look like you made progress, when in fact you did!

Knowing exactly what’s going on with your body comp allows you to make subtle, but precise changes in your diet, increasing the odds (and speed) of your success.

Tank, get some sleep and read the thread again later! (grin)

How you cycle the different days is going to depend on your goals and the days of the week you work out. Get me that info, and I’ll make recommendations.

60

Done and done Terry. I re-read it and then searched for your other thread and I found it all!