Yeah, a few questions here. I’ve been reading a bunch of Keifers stuff and I’m going to start incorporating more insulin spiking carbs in the evenings, especially post workout. Currently following a 16/8 IF.
I assume keifer coffee is coffee with protein powder? I was under the impression that keifer was an IF type guy, especially with his anti breakfast articles on elitefitness. From what you’re doing, sounds like he’s not recommending total fasting, even though protein (like whey) will cause a rise in insulin. http://articles.elitefts.com/articles/nutrition/logic-does-not-apply-part-2-breakfast/
[quote]caveman101 wrote:
say if i trainat 4-5pm, how much am i actuallysupposedto eat beforehand? you dont seem to eat much p/f before [/quote]
It’s not 100% keto. What he suggests though is when you wake up to postpone breakfast as long as possible. The longer the better. So when I wake up at 6, or 7 I won’t eat anything till noon because I lift in the early afternoon. No problem training fasted, I just prefer to eat a little something beforehand.
[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
9 days into my prep phase and I’m up two pounds. FML. As a side note I look a bit leaner and my waist is down an inch. But at the same time it doesn’t really help with determining how much carbs to take in when I start adding them back in.[/quote]
That’s a little surprising. Do you weigh yourself at a consistent time? The only thing I can think is to make sure it’s in the morning after a nice healthy dump. You also might be drinking a lot of fluids?
[quote]ds1973 wrote:
Yeah, a few questions here. I’ve been reading a bunch of Keifers stuff and I’m going to start incorporating more insulin spiking carbs in the evenings, especially post workout. Currently following a 16/8 IF.
I assume keifer coffee is coffee with protein powder? I was under the impression that keifer was an IF type guy, especially with his anti breakfast articles on elitefitness. From what you’re doing, sounds like he’s not recommending total fasting, even though protein (like whey) will cause a rise in insulin. http://articles.elitefts.com/articles/nutrition/logic-does-not-apply-part-2-breakfast/
The Kiefer coffee has 10g of protein in it. Just enough to stave off catabolism, but not enough to cause a rise in insulin. He goes over that in the book, but it’s not something you need to do either. And there has been plenty of ice cream on the training days. Just check out the post workout previous entries. Until last night all of my PWO shakes had ice cream in them lol. Plus the weekly visits to ben and jerrys
[quote]ds1973 wrote:
Yeah, a few questions here. I’ve been reading a bunch of Keifers stuff and I’m going to start incorporating more insulin spiking carbs in the evenings, especially post workout. Currently following a 16/8 IF.
I assume keifer coffee is coffee with protein powder? I was under the impression that keifer was an IF type guy, especially with his anti breakfast articles on elitefitness. From what you’re doing, sounds like he’s not recommending total fasting, even though protein (like whey) will cause a rise in insulin. http://articles.elitefts.com/articles/nutrition/logic-does-not-apply-part-2-breakfast/
To answer your first question (I read the book over a couple of times, starting next week), the morning concoction he suggests is about 10 grams of whey isolate and 1 gram of MCT in coffee.
From the book-
“Ten grams or soâ??about half a serving for most commercial formulations â??raises FAA levels without over-stimulating insulin release. There may be a small increase, but not enough to derail fat-burning and not enough to throw off ketogenesis.”
[quote]caveman101 wrote:
say if i trainat 4-5pm, how much am i actuallysupposedto eat beforehand? you dont seem to eat much p/f before [/quote]
Ha didn’t quite answer that. I’d say after waking to give 3-5 hours before eating anything. If you can go a little longer, that wouldn’t hurt. Say you woke up at 8, then don’t eat anything till noon or 1 at least. If you wanted you could have a small meal or two before training. I only eat once because I just do a 3 meals a day deal. So I’m just leaving more for the PWO. Keep the carbs below 30g pre workout though. And no more than 8 per meal pre workout.
[quote]caveman101 wrote:
okay, Im up at 6am, fasted cardio 6.30-7.30am and blended protein shakes at 9am/12am/3pm anyway. weights at 4pm then proceed to stuff face?[/quote]
Same…minus the fasted cardio and minus any food/protein shakes.
Wake; 2 cups coffee with 1tsp heavy whipping cream/1tsp half&half
Fast until 330-4pmish - 10g BCAAs
Train until about 530pm
6-9pm - eat all of my food. 250g carbs, 160g protein, ~low fat
…Days that I don’t train, I do the same minus the training and therefore minus the carbs…
[quote]LiquidMercury wrote:
9 days into my prep phase and I’m up two pounds. FML. As a side note I look a bit leaner and my waist is down an inch. But at the same time it doesn’t really help with determining how much carbs to take in when I start adding them back in.[/quote]
That’s a little surprising. Do you weigh yourself at a consistent time? The only thing I can think is to make sure it’s in the morning after a nice healthy dump. You also might be drinking a lot of fluids?[/quote]
I drink about 2 gallons of water a day and unfortunately weigh in whenever I get to the gym in the evening. I suppose I’ll try and get there early in the morning tomorrow before work just so I can weigh in. But yes I was a bit surprised myself.
[quote]caveman101 wrote:
okay, Im up at 6am, fasted cardio 6.30-7.30am and blended protein shakes at 9am/12am/3pm anyway. weights at 4pm then proceed to stuff face?[/quote]
It would be more like wake up, do your fasted cardio. Coffee with cream till noon. Then a meal with veggies and less than 8 total carbs. train, then an hour PWO shake with carbs (keep it below 60g and high GI) and an hour after that eat your face off.
[quote]caveman101 wrote:
okay, Im up at 6am, fasted cardio 6.30-7.30am and blended protein shakes at 9am/12am/3pm anyway. weights at 4pm then proceed to stuff face?[/quote]
It would be more like wake up, do your fasted cardio. Coffee with cream till noon. Then a meal with veggies and less than 8 total carbs. train, then an hour PWO shake with carbs (keep it below 60g and high GI) and an hour after that eat your face off. [/quote]
I love when the recommendation is “eat your face off”…I take that advice and fail miserably. I think it’s because most people get sick of or full, but I can easily eat a large pizza, a gallon of ice cream, and two full boxes of cap’n crunch in about 2 hours…then take a trip to taco bell and eat a bunch of tacos, a chicken quesidilla and 2 burritos…go home have poptarts…then eat a tub of greek yogurt… all from 6pm-10pm… Yes, I’ve done that…no I didn’t feel full. So, I wish the instructions would be more specific than eat your face off…
[quote]caveman101 wrote:
okay, Im up at 6am, fasted cardio 6.30-7.30am and blended protein shakes at 9am/12am/3pm anyway. weights at 4pm then proceed to stuff face?[/quote]
It would be more like wake up, do your fasted cardio. Coffee with cream till noon. Then a meal with veggies and less than 8 total carbs. train, then an hour PWO shake with carbs (keep it below 60g and high GI) and an hour after that eat your face off. [/quote]
I love when the recommendation is “eat your face off”…I take that advice and fail miserably. I think it’s because most people get sick of or full, but I can easily eat a large pizza, a gallon of ice cream, and two full boxes of cap’n crunch in about 2 hours…then take a trip to taco bell and eat a bunch of tacos, a chicken quesidilla and 2 burritos…go home have poptarts…then eat a tub of greek yogurt… all from 6pm-10pm… Yes, I’ve done that…no I didn’t feel full. So, I wish the instructions would be more specific than eat your face off…[/quote]
Good point. I’m also trying not to paraphrase the entire book on here lol. But as you know it’s highly individualistic. I keep my carbs lower depending on what I’m training, how I look/feel etc. Sometimes I go cleaner, sometimes I’ll eat a pizza (might do that tomorrow). It’s a general guideline. And it also depends on his current bf% and whether or not he would need to go through the prep phase.
I love when the recommendation is “eat your face off”…I take that advice and fail miserably. I think it’s because most people get sick of or full, but I can easily eat a large pizza, a gallon of ice cream, and two full boxes of cap’n crunch in about 2 hours…then take a trip to taco bell and eat a bunch of tacos, a chicken quesidilla and 2 burritos…go home have poptarts…then eat a tub of greek yogurt… all from 6pm-10pm… Yes, I’ve done that…no I didn’t feel full. So, I wish the instructions would be more specific than eat your face off…[/quote]
God yes i can do the same thing. People do not realize they can tell me eat whatever you want or even eat how ever much till you get full. I dont get full. even with typical “clean” foods i can easily overeat those into 6000+ cals even in a very short window.
[quote]ds1973 wrote:
Yeah, a few questions here. I’ve been reading a bunch of Keifers stuff and I’m going to start incorporating more insulin spiking carbs in the evenings, especially post workout. Currently following a 16/8 IF.
I assume keifer coffee is coffee with protein powder? I was under the impression that keifer was an IF type guy, especially with his anti breakfast articles on elitefitness. From what you’re doing, sounds like he’s not recommending total fasting, even though protein (like whey) will cause a rise in insulin. http://articles.elitefts.com/articles/nutrition/logic-does-not-apply-part-2-breakfast/
To answer your first question (I read the book over a couple of times, starting next week), the morning concoction he suggests is about 10 grams of whey isolate and 1 gram of MCT in coffee.
From the book-
“Ten grams or soâ??about half a serving for most commercial formulations â??raises FAA levels without over-stimulating insulin release. There may be a small increase, but not enough to derail fat-burning and not enough to throw off ketogenesis.”[/quote]
Ah, ok. That explains the perceived discrepency. Makes sense based on what I’ve read in his protein 2.0 article. Sounds like the book has all the specifics of exactly how to implement his program.
I’d imagine you still have to count calories somewhat so that you’re overall weekly load is below maintenance for cutting fat, right? So instead of “eat your face off”, it’s just 20% above maint and low days are below maint by another percentage. If you’re eating the same all the time, then it becomes pretty easy to just add or subtract the carb load.
[quote]ds1973 wrote:
I’d imagine you still have to count calories somewhat so that you’re overall weekly load is below maintenance for cutting fat, right? So instead of “eat your face off”, it’s just 20% above maint and low days are below maint by another percentage. If you’re eating the same all the time, then it becomes pretty easy to just add or subtract the carb load.[/quote]
I’ve never counted my calories. Kiefer doesn’t suggest doing it either. The only variable I keep track of is my carbs. I would assume most people who’ve been lifting and eating properly for a while know how much they can eat. I eat entirely by feel now and I’m in the best shape I’ve been in. Still a long way to get where I want, but slow and steady. If you were to count anything I’d suggest counting macros.
[quote]ds1973 wrote:
I’d imagine you still have to count calories somewhat so that you’re overall weekly load is below maintenance for cutting fat, right? So instead of “eat your face off”, it’s just 20% above maint and low days are below maint by another percentage. If you’re eating the same all the time, then it becomes pretty easy to just add or subtract the carb load.[/quote]
I’ve never counted my calories. Kiefer doesn’t suggest doing it either. The only variable I keep track of is my carbs. I would assume most people who’ve been lifting and eating properly for a while know how much they can eat. I eat entirely by feel now and I’m in the best shape I’ve been in. Still a long way to get where I want, but slow and steady. If you were to count anything I’d suggest counting macros.[/quote]
Agreed! …keep protein consistent at around 1g/lb of BW or LBM and count carbs… Eat less carbs and more fats or fattier cuts of meat on rest days. That’s what I do…
Agreed! …keep protein consistent at around 1g/lb of BW or LBM and count carbs… Eat less carbs and more fats or fattier cuts of meat on rest days. That’s what I do…[/quote]
Facko, so you’ve managed to get leaner without worrying about overall calorie intake? Interesting. Do you just eat when hungry during the day then as long as it’s low carb and then hit the sweets after training? I don’t think I’ve been hitting the carbs high enough after training.
Agreed! …keep protein consistent at around 1g/lb of BW or LBM and count carbs… Eat less carbs and more fats or fattier cuts of meat on rest days. That’s what I do…[/quote]
Facko, so you’ve managed to get leaner without worrying about overall calorie intake? Interesting. Do you just eat when hungry during the day then as long as it’s low carb and then hit the sweets after training? I don’t think I’ve been hitting the carbs high enough after training.[/quote]
Well an excellent example of this would be any of the work Shelby does. I’ve worked with him before, and all you count is macros. As far as I know you don’t count cals with his approach either. The only times I’ve seen people count calories are when they’re on plans like weight watchers and jenny craig. Not a poke at you by any means. I understand that to lose weight calories in have to be lower than calories out. I just know that for anyone who’s not a soccer mom counting macros works just fine.
