Carb Back Loading

Nutrition
821

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]MAF14 wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]MAF14 wrote:
WBB, do you notice any energy boost from 1g carnitine or is it just to free up fatty acids?
[/quote]

to be honest i dont notice anything at all from it. i bought it because a guy at my gym said it cut him up like no supplement hes ever tried before, it was like $15 so i figured id give it a shot. been using it for 6 weeks, i just use it now to get rid of the bottle lol.[/quote]

Hah, I’ve heard one reliable review where 10g pre workout was said to put energy “through the roof” but I bought some today so I think I’ll start low and taper up.[/quote]

LOL 10g of carnitine is going to give you the shits from hell.[/quote]

I don’t know if this is out of your guys’ comfort zone, but if you’re going to use L-carnitine it really needs to be injected IM, and even then it needs to be paired with 1-2 IU’s of insulin to be optimally utilized. So unless you’re planning on doing those two things, I wouldn’t waste your time/money on oral carnitine. [/quote]

i close my eyes, hold my breathe and pray to god when i have to give blood for tests. i doubt ill be able to stab myself purposely just to inject carnitine LOL.[/quote]

hahaha, fair enough.[/quote]

I feel ya. I switched from this to diet and training from JM. GOing really well so far, but yeah I know what you mean about missing pop tarts every single night. Not just once a week.

822

guys i have a question. i woke up this morning - after 600g carb backload last night - and only gained like 1.3 lbs or whatever…but that’s expected. I’m just wondering, however, how you guage progress regarding fat loss and/or muscle gain. Obvi for muscle gain you’ll be bigger/stronger. But in the book Kiefer never mentions how to gauge fat loss. This diet doesn’t seem like it will have you progressively shedding lb’s like most traditional diets. So how does one assess fat loss?

I ask because I am REALLY bad at objectively looknig at my body day-to-day and judging its condition lol. I woke up this morning feeling fine…not flat or anything, and not bloated either!

That being the case as well, should I experiment with more or less carbs during the backload? I lift HARD 4x a week, I actually get my programming from Detazathoth and train like a mad man lol, but some workouts are easier than others…was thinking about going up to 700g one day, and down to maybe 450 another…Just wanted to get some opinions!

823

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]MAF14 wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]MAF14 wrote:
WBB, do you notice any energy boost from 1g carnitine or is it just to free up fatty acids?
[/quote]

to be honest i dont notice anything at all from it. i bought it because a guy at my gym said it cut him up like no supplement hes ever tried before, it was like $15 so i figured id give it a shot. been using it for 6 weeks, i just use it now to get rid of the bottle lol.[/quote]

Hah, I’ve heard one reliable review where 10g pre workout was said to put energy “through the roof” but I bought some today so I think I’ll start low and taper up.[/quote]

LOL 10g of carnitine is going to give you the shits from hell.[/quote]

I don’t know if this is out of your guys’ comfort zone, but if you’re going to use L-carnitine it really needs to be injected IM, and even then it needs to be paired with 1-2 IU’s of insulin to be optimally utilized. So unless you’re planning on doing those two things, I wouldn’t waste your time/money on oral carnitine. [/quote]

i close my eyes, hold my breathe and pray to god when i have to give blood for tests. i doubt ill be able to stab myself purposely just to inject carnitine LOL.[/quote]

hahaha, fair enough.[/quote]

Lol, I’ve heard the same I’m just desperate for any non-stim energy supps at this point. Figured I’d give it a try.

824

[quote]hlss09 wrote:
guys i have a question. i woke up this morning - after 600g carb backload last night - and only gained like 1.3 lbs or whatever…but that’s expected. I’m just wondering, however, how you guage progress regarding fat loss and/or muscle gain. Obvi for muscle gain you’ll be bigger/stronger. But in the book Kiefer never mentions how to gauge fat loss. This diet doesn’t seem like it will have you progressively shedding lb’s like most traditional diets. So how does one assess fat loss?

I ask because I am REALLY bad at objectively looknig at my body day-to-day and judging its condition lol. I woke up this morning feeling fine…not flat or anything, and not bloated either!

That being the case as well, should I experiment with more or less carbs during the backload? I lift HARD 4x a week, I actually get my programming from Detazathoth and train like a mad man lol, but some workouts are easier than others…was thinking about going up to 700g one day, and down to maybe 450 another…Just wanted to get some opinions! [/quote]

I currently just use fat caliper measurements taken at the same time of day.

825

[quote]MAF14 wrote:

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]MAF14 wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]MAF14 wrote:
WBB, do you notice any energy boost from 1g carnitine or is it just to free up fatty acids?
[/quote]

to be honest i dont notice anything at all from it. i bought it because a guy at my gym said it cut him up like no supplement hes ever tried before, it was like $15 so i figured id give it a shot. been using it for 6 weeks, i just use it now to get rid of the bottle lol.[/quote]

Hah, I’ve heard one reliable review where 10g pre workout was said to put energy “through the roof” but I bought some today so I think I’ll start low and taper up.[/quote]

LOL 10g of carnitine is going to give you the shits from hell.[/quote]

I don’t know if this is out of your guys’ comfort zone, but if you’re going to use L-carnitine it really needs to be injected IM, and even then it needs to be paired with 1-2 IU’s of insulin to be optimally utilized. So unless you’re planning on doing those two things, I wouldn’t waste your time/money on oral carnitine. [/quote]

i close my eyes, hold my breathe and pray to god when i have to give blood for tests. i doubt ill be able to stab myself purposely just to inject carnitine LOL.[/quote]

hahaha, fair enough.[/quote]

Lol, I’ve heard the same I’m just desperate for any non-stim energy supps at this point. Figured I’d give it a try.[/quote]

I read your thread btw, I still don’t understand why you won’t use stims.

826

My apologies for asking questions of you guys, and not buying the book.
But at my age I want to be sure CBL is a good fit for me before I shell out the high cost of the book.

On the surface it seems like somewhat of a health hazard, especially considering my blood sugar always reads 99 whenever fasted bloodwork tested. Also, my dad has suffered 4 heart attacks and I don’t want to do anything to bring on a situation of poor health if the genetic potential is there.

That said, is prescribing things like donuts, cake, sugary cereals and such really a good idea - especially late in the day and in such high quantity?

I understand that bodybuilding isn’t necessarily a healthy venture, but I just want to be sure it’s worth the risk to look good.

Thanks,

Old Man Dwarf.

827

[quote]krzycase wrote:

[quote]hlss09 wrote:
guys i have a question. i woke up this morning - after 600g carb backload last night - and only gained like 1.3 lbs or whatever…but that’s expected. I’m just wondering, however, how you guage progress regarding fat loss and/or muscle gain. Obvi for muscle gain you’ll be bigger/stronger. But in the book Kiefer never mentions how to gauge fat loss. This diet doesn’t seem like it will have you progressively shedding lb’s like most traditional diets. So how does one assess fat loss?

I ask because I am REALLY bad at objectively looknig at my body day-to-day and judging its condition lol. I woke up this morning feeling fine…not flat or anything, and not bloated either!

That being the case as well, should I experiment with more or less carbs during the backload? I lift HARD 4x a week, I actually get my programming from Detazathoth and train like a mad man lol, but some workouts are easier than others…was thinking about going up to 700g one day, and down to maybe 450 another…Just wanted to get some opinions! [/quote]

I currently just use fat caliper measurements taken at the same time of day.
[/quote]

Gotta be careful because you could get some water retentino and start thinking its fat.

828

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
My apologies for asking questions of you guys, and not buying the book.
But at my age I want to be sure CBL is a good fit for me before I shell out the high cost of the book.

On the surface it seems like somewhat of a health hazard, especially considering my blood sugar always reads 99 whenever fasted bloodwork tested. Also, my dad has suffered 4 heart attacks and I don’t want to do anything to bring on a situation of poor health if the genetic potential is there.

That said, is prescribing things like donuts, cake, sugary cereals and such really a good idea - especially late in the day and in such high quantity?

I understand that bodybuilding isn’t necessarily a healthy venture, but I just want to be sure it’s worth the risk to look good.

Thanks,

Old Man Dwarf.[/quote]

ID

This is my opinion and only that but i thnk it could end up actually helping fasting blood sugar and insulin resistance. You go for a long period with very low insulin and low carb. THis only will impart some insulin sensitivity. Then you have some activity during the day during this low calorie low carb portion which will add more insulin sensistvity then you add some resitance training at night on top of that wihtout carbs. You become very insulin sensitive. So then carb load and those carbs go to the right place and dissappear. So then you are back to low insulin levels for along time. I find this to be much smarter than splitting those carbs up into multiple meals and spiking isnulin multiple times (for health reasons)

829

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:

I read your thread btw, I still don’t understand why you won’t use stims.[/quote]

Im hypothyroid AND have adrenal insufficiency. Using more stims are only going to stress my adrenals more and when I was using HR Ultra it didn’t do anything for energy. Took a month off, not even coffee, and still didn’t respond to it.

830

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
My apologies for asking questions of you guys, and not buying the book.
But at my age I want to be sure CBL is a good fit for me before I shell out the high cost of the book.

On the surface it seems like somewhat of a health hazard, especially considering my blood sugar always reads 99 whenever fasted bloodwork tested. Also, my dad has suffered 4 heart attacks and I don’t want to do anything to bring on a situation of poor health if the genetic potential is there.

That said, is prescribing things like donuts, cake, sugary cereals and such really a good idea - especially late in the day and in such high quantity?

I understand that bodybuilding isn’t necessarily a healthy venture, but I just want to be sure it’s worth the risk to look good.

Thanks,

Old Man Dwarf.[/quote]

ID

This is my opinion and only that but i thnk it could end up actually helping fasting blood sugar and insulin resistance. You go for a long period with very low insulin and low carb. THis only will impart some insulin sensitivity. Then you have some activity during the day during this low calorie low carb portion which will add more insulin sensistvity then you add some resitance training at night on top of that wihtout carbs. You become very insulin sensitive. So then carb load and those carbs go to the right place and dissappear. So then you are back to low insulin levels for along time. I find this to be much smarter than splitting those carbs up into multiple meals and spiking isnulin multiple times (for health reasons)[/quote]

This is exactly what I “wanted to hear”.
We seem to be living in an age where some great discoveries are turning conventional wisdom on its ear. CBL sounds crazy at first, but logical upon further inspection.

Thanks Ryan!!

831

ID,

In the book, Keifer recommends getting even your dirty carbs from least processed sources, like a handmade pizza over a frozen one from the store. I think that regarding insulin sensivity, Ryan might be fairly spot on. Judging from what I remember in Biochem, I’d think the body would have an easier time pulling the receptors up, and taking them down once, rather than multiple times (as would happen with multiple carb bolus’ throughout the day).

However, that being said, this seems like one of those questions better answered by someone like Modok. Dude knows his stuff. And he may have answered it on his dietaryrehab forums.

832

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
My apologies for asking questions of you guys, and not buying the book.
But at my age I want to be sure CBL is a good fit for me before I shell out the high cost of the book.

On the surface it seems like somewhat of a health hazard, especially considering my blood sugar always reads 99 whenever fasted bloodwork tested. Also, my dad has suffered 4 heart attacks and I don’t want to do anything to bring on a situation of poor health if the genetic potential is there.

That said, is prescribing things like donuts, cake, sugary cereals and such really a good idea - especially late in the day and in such high quantity?

I understand that bodybuilding isn’t necessarily a healthy venture, but I just want to be sure it’s worth the risk to look good.

Thanks,

Old Man Dwarf.[/quote]

ID

This is my opinion and only that but i thnk it could end up actually helping fasting blood sugar and insulin resistance. You go for a long period with very low insulin and low carb. THis only will impart some insulin sensitivity. Then you have some activity during the day during this low calorie low carb portion which will add more insulin sensistvity then you add some resitance training at night on top of that wihtout carbs. You become very insulin sensitive. So then carb load and those carbs go to the right place and dissappear. So then you are back to low insulin levels for along time. I find this to be much smarter than splitting those carbs up into multiple meals and spiking isnulin multiple times (for health reasons)[/quote]

This is exactly what I “wanted to hear”.
We seem to be living in an age where some great discoveries are turning conventional wisdom on its ear. CBL sounds crazy at first, but logical upon further inspection.

Thanks Ryan!!
[/quote]

No problem ID. Again just a hypothesis. I mean i didnt straight pull it out of thin air, I have done lots of reading but i am no expert.

And the carbs dont have to be so “dirty” or “unhealthy”. Pototes and white rice are great for backloads. And personally oats and brown rice are fine for my backloads. No difference what so ever. It will be somethign to experiemnt with and see how your own body reacts to differnt carbs/different amounts/ and different combinations

833

[quote]ugaMMA411 wrote:

[quote]Grimlorn wrote:

[quote]ugaMMA411 wrote:

[quote]Grimlorn wrote:

[quote]ugaMMA411 wrote:

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:
how does an endormorpic former fat boy eat 4000 calories and 400g of carbs and wakeup bigger and leaner than a week ago on a keto diet.

this my friends is a riddle that will never be solved…

kiefer you mad scientist you…youre a genius.[/quote]

It’s crazy how one’s body can adapt through time. I used to weigh in the 190-200 lb range in high school and early college. Now I compete at 135 lbs and follow a very similar protocol to CBL (250-500 g per day depending on the activity level). I don’t care how many skeptics there are out there, I’ve tried several diets in the past 5 years and the concepts of CBL work great for me. [/quote]
Can you give a diet/training summary of what you do? I’m curious how much you train and when you CBL since you train to fight.[/quote]

I’ll PM you. Don’t wanna hijack this thread. BTW, thank you Siouxfan, your thread is one of the many that help me get ideas for tweaking my diet[/quote]
Did you PM me because I haven’t received anything and it’s been a couple days.[/quote]

I’ve tried sending you several messages but for some reason it won’t work after i click submit…i guess i can just write a quick thread about how i used CBL and IF to cut weight when getting ready for a fight (I walk around 152 lbs and cut to 135 lbs - yes i’m a midget). Please let me know if that would interest you.
Sorry, not trying to hijack the thread[/quote]

It would. I’d be interested in knowing how CBLing after training affected your weight considering it’s a different type of workout than weightlifting. I’m thinking if I did grappling and striking my muscles would be sore enough to CBL on. I’m only working on striking atm though.

834

[quote]MAF14 wrote:

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:

I read your thread btw, I still don’t understand why you won’t use stims.[/quote]

Im hypothyroid AND have adrenal insufficiency. Using more stims are only going to stress my adrenals more and when I was using HR Ultra it didn’t do anything for energy. Took a month off, not even coffee, and still didn’t respond to it.[/quote]

Ahhhh ok. That’s insane man, I hope you figure it out.

835

[quote]wannabebig250 wrote:

[quote]alin wrote:
Gl;itch.e and others,

I’m thinking of getting into this (yeah, a bit late to the party) but have done AD before.

Firstly, how do the two compare? (Main goal fat loss)

Secondly, is this essentially fasting in the AM - low/no carb until workout then carb up? I don’t want to spend loads on the programme only to find there’s nothing more to it than that.[/quote]

backloading is all the benefits of the AD with none of the negatives. bacon and eggs for lunch, check. steak, check. carb up every night, double check. bad workouts, never.[/quote]
Yep. For fatloss I think this works better. Part of that is the fasting, not necessarily the carbs.

Skip Breakfast and fast for about 4 hours or so after waking (I wake at 7:30 and eat at 12pm)

Training days: Eat ultra low carb/high fat/moderate protein until after your workout (which should be in the late afternoon/early evening). Go mental with carbs and protein PWO.

Off days: Fast awhile, then eat ultra low carb/high fat/moderate protein the rest of the day

So long as youve got these basics covered youre golden.

836

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:

[quote]MAF14 wrote:

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:

I read your thread btw, I still don’t understand why you won’t use stims.[/quote]

Im hypothyroid AND have adrenal insufficiency. Using more stims are only going to stress my adrenals more and when I was using HR Ultra it didn’t do anything for energy. Took a month off, not even coffee, and still didn’t respond to it.[/quote]

Ahhhh ok. That’s insane man, I hope you figure it out.[/quote]

Haha, yah it sucks but I’m working on it, thanks.

837

glitch, i PM’ed you.

Also, how long does Kiefer say to fast after waking? Is it 4 hours? I’m looking through the book and can’t seem to find that info lol.

I’m used to fasting, but I was under the impression that about an hour out of bed it was okay to have a “Kiefer coffee” - coffee w/ 1tbsp coconut oil or so…?

838

[quote]hlss09 wrote:
glitch, i PM’ed you.

Also, how long does Kiefer say to fast after waking? Is it 4 hours? I’m looking through the book and can’t seem to find that info lol.

I’m used to fasting, but I was under the impression that about an hour out of bed it was okay to have a “Kiefer coffee” - coffee w/ 1tbsp coconut oil or so…? [/quote]

The fasting part I believe depends on the time of day you are training, and what route you are taking with the backloading. For the density bulking, add the MCT’s and WI to the coffee about an hour after you wake up. For the strength accumulation, just do the coffee, and add the MCT’s if you’re starving is how I interpreted it.

Check pages 120-124 for a more thorough write-up. I only know because I was re-reading this part today haha.

839

cool thx wiggles. still trying to figure out how to determine how many carbs i need though.

I’ll reiterate that I SUCK @ objectively noticing day-to-day changes.

Last night I backloaded w/ 600g carbs. Woke up this morning feeling a bit pumped right out of bed, and not bloated or anything.

I’m backloading again tomorrow after training. I’m gonna try 650g carb (which is the limit for someone of my weight in Kiefer’s charts), and the next day I will backload with 500g and see how that goes…

I guess I’m trying these different numbers to find my ‘sweet spot’…even though I probably wouldn’t know it if it slapped me in the face lol

840

I have found the podcasts/interviews with him to very useful in answering every little thing that he doesn’t explain fully in the book.

You can do the morning “shake” on SA but its not necessary if you are trying to lose a large amount of body fat. The point of the MCT oil and or heavy cream is to continue the ketosis throughout the morning. This is achieved with the use of the MCT not the heavy cream which is only used to get your fat for the day.

Its pretty much all in the book. Don’t go more then 12 hours without at least the MCT oil, so you don’t go catabolic.