I am curious what is the difference between me investing my time for a capital gain
as apposed to investing my money for a capital gain ?
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I am curious what is the difference between me investing my time for a capital gain
as apposed to investing my money for a capital gain ?[/quote]
You cannot run away as easily as capital can be transferred.
Moloch wants his money, you are his bitch and fairness is not part of the game.
See, that was easy.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I am curious what is the difference between me investing my time for a capital gain
as apposed to investing my money for a capital gain ?[/quote]
You cannot run away as easily as capital can be transferred.
Moloch wants his money, you are his bitch and fairness is not part of the game.
See, that was easy. [/quote]
That’s the way I see it:)
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I am curious what is the difference between me investing my time for a capital gain
as apposed to investing my money for a capital gain ?[/quote]
You cannot run away as easily as capital can be transferred.
Moloch wants his money, you are his bitch and fairness is not part of the game.
See, that was easy. [/quote]
That’s the way I see it:)
[/quote]
Yeah well, if you would tie it to people demanding the state to right any and every perceived wrong whether it actually exists or not, maybe there could be a somewhat fair tax system.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I am curious what is the difference between me investing my time for a capital gain
as apposed to investing my money for a capital gain ?[/quote]
If by investing your time you mean working at a job for a wage at an agreed upon rate of compensation ,that you can have a very high degree of receiving, versus investing money hoping for a return on your investment, with absolutely no guarantee you won’t lose all your money, I would say it’s self evident.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I am curious what is the difference between me investing my time for a capital gain
as apposed to investing my money for a capital gain ?[/quote]
If by investing your time you mean working at a job for a wage at an agreed upon rate of compensation ,that you can have a very high degree of receiving, versus investing money hoping for a return on your investment, with absolutely no guarantee you won’t lose all your money, I would say it’s self evident. [/quote]
Nothing is self evident to that moron.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I am curious what is the difference between me investing my time for a capital gain
as apposed to investing my money for a capital gain ?[/quote]
If by investing your time you mean working at a job for a wage at an agreed upon rate of compensation ,that you can have a very high degree of receiving, versus investing money hoping for a return on your investment, with absolutely no guarantee you won’t lose all your money, I would say it’s self evident. [/quote]
If you invest in a way that you actually could lose all of it you are a moron.
Risk, in financial terms is defined as a fluctuation around the mean, meaning your “risk” mostly consists of having a return of 4% this year and 8% the next.
While some soil their panties despite knowing this, it is really not that bad.
There is a thing out there called, hell, I dont know what it is called, but it basically diversifies among the available investments classes and it does quite well.
Next to no risk, solid returns, if I could remember the name I would recommend it to anyone who does not want to read whole volumes until he invests his money.
I think it was from the guy who wrote “How to be free in an unfree world”.
Oh my, the joys of a semi eidetic memory.
You know its there but you remember zilch.
Anyhow:
[quote]orion wrote:
Moloch [/quote]
This made me laugh.
[quote]orion wrote:
Oh my, the joys of a semi eidetic memory.
You know its there but you remember zilch.
Anyhow:
It’s called the only free lunch in the world, diversification. I suggest passive investment in ETFs.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I am curious what is the difference between me investing my time for a capital gain
as apposed to investing my money for a capital gain ?[/quote]
If by investing your time you mean working at a job for a wage at an agreed upon rate of compensation ,that you can have a very high degree of receiving, versus investing money hoping for a return on your investment, with absolutely no guarantee you won’t lose all your money, I would say it’s self evident. [/quote]
“very high degree” doesn’t do justice to how likely you are, in America, to get paid for your labor. It might take longer than it should in some situations, but, 9,999 time out of 10,000 you will get your $…
Investing in the market… Whole different animal…
[quote]orion wrote:
There is a thing out there called, hell, I dont know what it is called, but it basically diversifies among the available investments classes and it does quite well.
[/quote]
I believe you are talking about a Mutual Fund. No?
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]Sifu wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I am curious what is the difference between me investing my time for a capital gain
as apposed to investing my money for a capital gain ?[/quote]
If by investing your time you mean working at a job for a wage at an agreed upon rate of compensation ,that you can have a very high degree of receiving, versus investing money hoping for a return on your investment, with absolutely no guarantee you won’t lose all your money, I would say it’s self evident. [/quote]
“very high degree” doesn’t do justice to how likely you are, in America, to get paid for your labor. It might take longer than it should in some situations, but, 9,999 time out of 10,000 you will get your $…
Investing in the market… Whole different animal…
[quote]orion wrote:
There is a thing out there called, hell, I dont know what it is called, but it basically diversifies among the available investments classes and it does quite well.
[/quote]
I believe you are talking about a Mutual Fund. No?[/quote]
Can they hold physical gold?
If so, yes, but a very specific mutual fund trying to diversify between classes that are strongly negatively correlated, i.e. if one goes up the other goes down.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I am curious what is the difference between me investing my time for a capital gain
as apposed to investing my money for a capital gain ?[/quote]
If by investing your time you mean working at a job for a wage at an agreed upon rate of compensation ,that you can have a very high degree of receiving, versus investing money hoping for a return on your investment, with absolutely no guarantee you won’t lose all your money, I would say it’s self evident. [/quote]
I can tell you have never been self employed
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
“very high degree” doesn’t do justice to how likely you are, in America, to get paid for your labor. It might take longer than it should in some situations, but, 9,999 time out of 10,000 you will get your $…
Investing in the market… Whole different animal…
[/quote]
What the fuck are you talking about ? I know you have been self employed.
@ Beans when I cash out my 401 k and 403b are they taxed at the capital gains rate or at income rate
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
“very high degree” doesn’t do justice to how likely you are, in America, to get paid for your labor. It might take longer than it should in some situations, but, 9,999 time out of 10,000 you will get your $…
Investing in the market… Whole different animal…
[/quote]
What the fuck are you talking about ? I know you have been self employed.
[/quote]
being self employed = owning a business. Sifu was talking about working for a business. When you are an employee, it is much much more certain you will get paid for your labor, than you will make money investing in stocks and bonds.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
@ Beans when I cash out my 401 k and 403b are they taxed at the capital gains rate or at income rate [/quote]
At ordinary rates because the money went into your plan with pre-tax dollars.
However, depending on your situation, you may fall into a no tax status if you play your cards right and end up paying little to no taxes on that dough. Well until they repeal the current tax rates.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
@ Beans when I cash out my 401 k and 403b are they taxed at the capital gains rate or at income rate [/quote]
The biggest problems with the 401k system in its current incarnation that I see and I remember this as I worked for a company that still had a pension program before they transitioned us is that 401k contributions from employers have steadily moved down. It was a solid idea where both you and your company had a stake in your employment, but by and large now its moved to mostly employee only contributions going into imo relatively shitty options that are packaged to benefit the company in cheap maintenance costs not to be the best funds for employee choice.
If they really want to do a revamp some way of the totality of the social security contributions along with your personal contributions and if the company wants to throw in something else so be it should be allowed for you to invest with a private investment advisor who has a fiduciary duty to you the investor something that no stockbroker or insurance agent does.
[quote]groo wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
@ Beans when I cash out my 401 k and 403b are they taxed at the capital gains rate or at income rate [/quote]
The biggest problems with the 401k system in its current incarnation that I see and I remember this as I worked for a company that still had a pension program before they transitioned us is that 401k contributions from employers have steadily moved down. It was a solid idea where both you and your company had a stake in your employment, but by and large now its moved to mostly employee only contributions going into imo relatively shitty options that are packaged to benefit the company in cheap maintenance costs not to be the best funds for employee choice.[/quote]
Simple solution: opt out and put your money in an IRA. Best part is this won’t be deductable, so when you take distributions in retirement, the principle will be tax exempt as you will have already paid the tax on that.
As to the employer contributions: if companies moved away from pensions because they couldn’t maintain the funding of, why would they continue to contribute to the 401k? I mean American consumers demand low prices. In order to have low prices, compaines must keep costs down. So, rather than lay off 3,000 people, they drop 401k matches. Would you prefer they lay off people and keep the match?
You can do that, assuming I am reading this sentence correctly. (It is hard to follow.) You can opt out and open an IRA tomorrow.
The benefit of a 401k is getting the contributions in your plan pretax so you have more principle to grow.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]groo wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
@ Beans when I cash out my 401 k and 403b are they taxed at the capital gains rate or at income rate [/quote]
The biggest problems with the 401k system in its current incarnation that I see and I remember this as I worked for a company that still had a pension program before they transitioned us is that 401k contributions from employers have steadily moved down. It was a solid idea where both you and your company had a stake in your employment, but by and large now its moved to mostly employee only contributions going into imo relatively shitty options that are packaged to benefit the company in cheap maintenance costs not to be the best funds for employee choice.[/quote]
Simple solution: opt out and put your money in an IRA. Best part is this won’t be deductable, so when you take distributions in retirement, the principle will be tax exempt as you will have already paid the tax on that.
As to the employer contributions: if companies moved away from pensions because they couldn’t maintain the funding of, why would they continue to contribute to the 401k? I mean American consumers demand low prices. In order to have low prices, compaines must keep costs down. So, rather than lay off 3,000 people, they drop 401k matches. Would you prefer they lay off people and keep the match?
You can do that, assuming I am reading this sentence correctly. (It is hard to follow.) You can opt out and open an IRA tomorrow.
The benefit of a 401k is getting the contributions in your plan pretax so you have more principle to grow. [/quote]
Yah sorry I typed it sorta fast.
The first part about the pensions. I believe there has been a large cultural shift in many things. In the past companies wanted their employees to be around long term and rewarded long term employees with better benefits including pensions. While these made the company less profitable they didn’t make most companies non profitable. The big shift was more in attitude that the sole goal of a company should be to make the most money possible ignoring most if not all other concerns. I’d say this is not the best way to do business for a society as a whole. That last statement is opinion though, obviously someone who thought that the prime fiduciary responsibility is to the shareholder tends to think short term profit generally is the sole goal ignoring longer term considerations or other societal benefits. Insomuch as many people are quick to claim the 50s were great for business, business also tended to operate differently toward their workers in that time. If we’d go way back the people that want taxes to be less …income and capital gains…would realize that heavy tariffs, inheritance and consumption taxes were used in their place to raise revenue.
I don’t mind so much that companies move the number on the 401k or that its largely nonexistent my problem is the investment companies and choices are driven by the cost of the program ignoring the quality of the investment vehicles. I agree you can opt out which even makes more sense if the company match is peanuts. Though obviously deferring the taxes is a solid bonus employees should be given that option with a private investment adviser.
The last bit is I really think we should fund out current social security recipients because it was something we agreed to and you shouldn’t only hold to agreements when they are easy.
However I think the system should move to something where the employee has to ( yeah I know rough on the personal freedom there) take the 7 percent or so they contribute along with the 7 percent the employer has to with any additional they like and invest that with a financial adviser as they so choose.
[quote]groo wrote:
The first part about the pensions. I believe there has been a large cultural shift in many things. In the past companies wanted their employees to be around long term and rewarded long term employees with better benefits including pensions. While these made the company less profitable they didn’t make most companies non profitable. [/quote]
I don’t think that this notion is gone, not at all. I just think they look to keep people through different means that retirement. And yes that is mainly because other benefits are cheaper than a pension, coupled with things like health insurance which is vastly more expensive now comapred.
No one who is solely focused on the short term will last very long running a company, whether that be large mega-corp or small mom-n-pop. I’ve seen this with my own eyes.
And I would argue that a move away from pensions is thinking long term. Inflation, rising wages and an increased need for lower prices from consumers make pensions hard to fund, if not impossible.
The people these companies you feel are hurting, society at large, has caused this problem. society demands quality products for the least possible price. Society demands their savings make good interest, and their investments produce earnings to fund their lifestyle.
Campnies operate at the whim of the consumer, the consumer makes the market just as much as the company.
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=200
Receipts in constant dollars seems to refute what you are saying here. Unless I’m missing something.
This isn’t a bad idea. But it would come with some heavy handed regulation. Some of which would be needed, but knowing how government works, there would be like 60% too much, lol.
We would have to protect people that “don’t get it”. (This isn’t an insult. I don’t get how to do plumbing or cut wood at an angle in order to put up molding. I’m not upset because there are people that can.) This will require small bits of regulation to make sure no vultures come in and rape Mom and Dad Smith. But we all know the government would go way over board.
Hold on man, that is a very repulican idea you have their, lol. I also would like to see this, but AARP would flip the fuck out, and so would a whole lot of Americans.
Too bad as well, it could really help. There would be downsides, that could be fixed fairly simply.