Lumberjack, I gotta change my opinion on this one, after reading your last post. I agree with Avoids, especially if you plan to stop playing Hockey altogether. Why risk it. Just train, play, and have fun.
Los Bonos
I don’t understand some of you ‘gurus’ on this site. I’d really like some of the logic behind “training to your genetic potential” before deciding to take in AAS. If any could be given I’d be happy to read some of it.
My first question is, how would you know when you have reached “genetic potential”? My other question is why is there something wrong with a person using AAS if he is a “newbie” or inexperienced? If it is OK to ingest other ergogenic aids (when still new/not at genetic potential), what is the difference with ingesting AAS? (aside from legal/health issues…the question here is in the consideration of AAS being an ergogenic aid). Also, one more, if you could theoretically meet your genetic potential…why would you then decide to use AAS? You are at your “peak”, anything above that is obviously unnecessary and would likely fall back to your previous once you quit the stack/cycle you are on. Am I correct on that last statement? I’m assuming that if you begin taking steroids once you’ve met your genetic potential any gains above that (thru steroids) are above your potential and you would fall back to your potential after using (and if you were to keep your gains, then you weren’t at your potential…hence you shouldn’t have been using them)
Now, I am asking serious questions…I’m not bashing, just trying to get the views on this. I was prompted to ask because I thought that JB had a legit question but he was jumped on by Davo and some of the others on here.
Good questions, Brian. Here’s a few answers, IMHO:
The basic reasons for AAS are to accelerate your progress, or, to surpass your genetic potential. Genetic potential is ultimate degree of muscle mass one can gain without AAS or similar aids, ie, naturally.
Many knowledgable sources estimate that on average, one may retain approximately half of muscle gained beyond one’s genetic potential, if one ceases AAS. For example, if my genetic potential is 170 pounds of lean mass, and I take AAS to attain a lean mass of 200, after ceasing all AAS I can expect to retain a lean mass of 185, assuming I continue to do the right things with my diet and training. (Of course, with subobtimal training and diet, I could expect to soon dip well below 170 lbs of lean mass.)
Bill Roberts is one such expert who estimates that 50% of muscle gains by AAS above genetic potential may be retained long term without continuing use of AAS. Of course, there are many variables that may effect one’s long term retention of muscle mass following cessation of AAS. These include quality of ongoing training and diet; proper management of transition from AAS to natural; length of time mass has been present before cessation of AAS; degree of resumption endogenous testosterone production; and certainly many others.
The reason many vets strongly advocate that one attain a level of muscularity near one’s genetic potential before venturing into the use of AAS is that by proceeding in this manner, one is more likely to develop optimal training and nutritional knowledge and habits. On the other hand, if one begins to rely on AAS prematurely, given human nature, one would more likely never master proper training and nutrition. This individual could then also be expected to have a higher probability of excessive reliance on AAS, with subsequent predictable ill effects. These avoidable occurences of ill effects would then tend to increase public misunderstanding of and opposition to AAS.
BLUE YOU|'RE MY BOY!
In other words good answer.
Blue: Thank you for the great response.
Brian raises a good point. I am also still VERY interested in hearing the rest of the “gurus” stories. Even though Davo2 bashed on my question, I am still interested in hearing his experience. We have only gotten a few valid responses, and I am not sure why. This should be an easy one for all those BB’s who trained naturally for so long, then made the move. Lets her it guys.
Also, on a side note or experience. TRUE STORY NO BS. My friend has been lifting for something like 20 years off and on. He was a puny 135 wrestler in 10 grade when he started. (i’ve seen pictures-pathetic) He did not optain his natural potential before starting AAS-NO f*cking way. I would assume at 5’7" his potential was probably tops at 180-190, but Im no expert. Anyway, he used and abused, and now he balances between 230-240. Hes a big mo-fo. My point is, he took 8-10 years off in that 20 yrs time, he did get fat due to McDonalds and Pizza hut, but his structure had changed. He will NEVER be small again. Not a chance in hell. He is still WAY ahead of his genetic potential. His forearms are even HUGE ( they used to be rails).
I agree with the point about establishing good diet and training techniques. That is vital to this game. I am still not convinced you need to work out for 8 yrs or so Naturally, before you use AAS.
I think a lot of this is people just wanting to be right and almighty, even though they did’nt do it the “right” way themselves.
I suppose being a fat tub of shit could be considered being ahead of your natural genetic potential. However, I know a lot of fat people like your former skinny friend Bone that never used AAS and they are probably even fatter than your buddy. Some of them are pretty strong too. Their mistake is abusing the one steroid that is legal…food.
i thought it was more about paying your dues to the sport if you were just going to use for asthetics. like, when you lift for a while you find out what works and doesn’t work for you, and you ultimately decide your physique goals. i think its stupid for a person to lift for a month then decide ‘i wanna be like ronnie’ and start using. yes he’ll probably get pretty big but he’ll have no idea how or why and it just gives steroids an even worse rep than it already has.
anyone else think this should be moved to off-topic?
As I have said before, steroids is just the icing on the cake.
Waiting untill you have reached your gentetic potetial not only gives you a better knowledge of diet/ nutrition, and training, It also gives you experience. Experience as to how to lift the weights correctly as to avoid injury. Experience as to when you begin to feel a pain in your muscle to be able to put the weight down and walk away from it.
Training for years naturally also allows you to build a more quality physique. Growing slower gives you time to correct muscle imbalances and to really sculpt your physique. Once you have built the muscle into a quality, “mature” physique, adding steroids to the mix, while continuing to follow the diet/nutrition/ workout formula that brought you to were you are will only serve to continue your success in building an awesome, and asthetically symetrical, and balanced physique. Just check out my photos, there are many people bigger than me but I tend to get a lot more complements because of the shape of my muscles and their “maturity”. Eventually I’ll be even bigger, but I’ll never lose the general shape and symetry of my physic that I spent 11 years naturally creating. As Arnold has said: its not the length of time it takes to create your physique it is the end product that counts.
Avoids,
You miss my point. He did get fat, yes. He also put on a shit load of muscle, so when he dieted back down, he was f-in large, and still way ahead of his genetic potential.
As far as lumberjacks comment, I totally agree, one should wait until good habits and understanding are established before juicing.
What I want to get to the bottom of is the effectiveness of waiting unil you are at your genetic potential. One one side I can see how someone who wants to get as large as the possibly could, would wait. Then, when they reach their peak, they can bounce from there.
On the otherside, what if someone does not want to be like ronnie-or even close. Jsut a tore up mutha-fkr. Why would it hurt to use in this case. (lumberjack, just cuz you use, doesnt mean youll ever be as big as Ronnie.)
Has anybody read any scientific studies regarding this issue (P-22 has I bet).
Since steroids are considered “dangerous” by the scientific community, they are therefore considered “ethically wrong” to do human studies. Most of the info we do have is anecdotal - from personal experiences i.e. trial and error.