[quote]therajraj wrote:
According to Cardinal George Pell the answer is yes.
Go to 41:30[/quote]
It would have taken some honest searching. Quite frankly, it’s something very few atheists do. They tend to be more interested in berating theists then they are at seeking truth. Almost every atheist I know is completely wrong about the facets of religion and God and have zero interest in correcting themselves. If you are truly seeking truth, it’s possible, if you are seeking to prop up your ego, then it’s still possible, but it’s only up to God, in both circumstances. I have the advantage of actually liking God, so I don’t mind religion one bit.
If you were really, actually concerned about such a notion, you’d error on the side of God.
It makes zero sense to be an atheist and worry about heaven. So don’t worry about it.
Are you taking a chance? You bet. If all circumstances for understanding fell your way, your best shot at being correct is 50%. So it is a chance, but don’t worry, there is no such thing as heaven, maybe.
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
They never claimed to devote their life to a theology that was against killing though.[/quote]
So, it’s okay to commit the most amount of genocide because…you don’t devote your life to a theology that is against killing? Is that why they really are trying to point that out, or is there another reason? Because if that’s the case, Christianity isn’t against killing. It’s against murder. There is in fact a distinction.
Yes, so what’s next blaming prostitution on Catholicism?
[quote]therajraj wrote:
According to Cardinal George Pell the answer is yes.
Go to 41:30[/quote]
It would have taken some honest searching. Quite frankly, it’s something very few atheists do. They tend to be more interested in berating theists then they are at seeking truth. Almost every atheist I know is completely wrong about the facets of religion and God and have zero interest in correcting themselves. If you are truly seeking truth, it’s possible, if you are seeking to prop up your ego, then it’s still possible, but it’s only up to God, in both circumstances. I have the advantage of actually liking God, so I don’t mind religion one bit.
If you were really, actually concerned about such a notion, you’d error on the side of God.
It makes zero sense to be an atheist and worry about heaven. So don’t worry about it.
Are you taking a chance? You bet. If all circumstances for understanding fell your way, your best shot at being correct is 50%. So it is a chance, but don’t worry, there is no such thing as heaven, maybe. [/quote]
[quote]therajraj wrote:
According to Cardinal George Pell the answer is yes.
Go to 41:30[/quote]
It would have taken some honest searching. Quite frankly, it’s something very few atheists do. They tend to be more interested in berating theists then they are at seeking truth. Almost every atheist I know is completely wrong about the facets of religion and God and have zero interest in correcting themselves. If you are truly seeking truth, it’s possible, if you are seeking to prop up your ego, then it’s still possible, but it’s only up to God, in both circumstances. I have the advantage of actually liking God, so I don’t mind religion one bit.
If you were really, actually concerned about such a notion, you’d error on the side of God.
It makes zero sense to be an atheist and worry about heaven. So don’t worry about it.
Are you taking a chance? You bet. If all circumstances for understanding fell your way, your best shot at being correct is 50%. So it is a chance, but don’t worry, there is no such thing as heaven, maybe. [/quote]
good post
[/quote]
Aren’t you also an atheist? If so why do you agree with this?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
There IS some contextual relevance here, but the message stands. I will not be the one to say that there will be zero people in heaven who have never had the gospel preached to them, but they are the infinitesimally microscopic minority if they exist. Paul makes it plain here. One must HEAR, confess with their mouth and believe in their HEART that Jesus is Lord and is raised from the dead on their behalf.
[/quote]
So this pretty much rules out person B & C entirely. Even at birth you could say that it is highly likely that they will both end up in Hell & that is almost completely out of their own control.
Person A just got lucky by being born into the correct religion.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
According to Cardinal George Pell the answer is yes.
Go to 41:30[/quote]
I watched the whole debate last night on TV. Dawkins wasn’t as sharp as I expected, but some of the Cardinals comments were ridiculously retarded. It was pretty painful to watch.
For those that believe the answer to the above question is no, what are your thoughts on the following scenarios:
Person A - Born in an isolated part of Africa. Christian missionaries preach to him. Having no access to information to the contrary, he accepts christianity to be the truth.
Person B - Born in an isolated part of Africa. Muslim missionaries preach to him. Having no access to information to the contrary, he accepts Islam to be the truth.
Person C - Born in an isolated part of Africa. He grows up living in an isolated tribe & during his life is never exposed to the teachings of any modern religion. He doesn’t accept christ as he has never even heard of Jesus.
Where will each of the three people end up after death?
It seems a tad unfair if person A goes to heaven, while persons B&C are tortured for eternity. Based on where they were born & the environment they were exposed to, it was almost inevitable where they would end up.
[/quote]
There is some belief that a person living in ignorance, yet seeking god, the creator, with his/her heart, and otherwise living a life not morally repugnant to God, might…MIGHT…be saved through God’s will. Might. As in maybe, or maybe not. Don’t know with certainty. Maybe. And that’s considering your extreme examples of people without opportunity. And, again, it’s still a might. So pretty much nobody here, seeing as they have access to a computer.[/quote]
But what if someone is taught from birth that the wrong religion is the truth & that they will end up in hell if they even question its validity. Did they really have the “opportunity” to accept the correct religion?
What about someone with a low IQ? They may not even have the mental capacity to weigh up the different options, so they will probably just have to accept what they are taught. If they are unlucky enough to be taught the wrong dogma, they get tortured for eternity.
[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
But what if someone is taught from birth that the wrong religion is the truth & that they will end up in hell if they even question its validity. Did they really have the “opportunity” to accept the correct religion?
What about someone with a low IQ? They may not even have the mental capacity to weigh up the different options, so they will probably just have to accept what they are taught. If they are unlucky enough to be taught the wrong dogma, they get tortured for eternity.[/quote]
[quote]therajraj wrote:
According to Cardinal George Pell the answer is yes.
Go to 41:30[/quote]
I watched the whole debate last night on TV. Dawkins wasn’t as sharp as I expected, but some of the Cardinals comments were ridiculously retarded. It was pretty painful to watch.
For those that believe the answer to the above question is no, what are your thoughts on the following scenarios:
Person A - Born in an isolated part of Africa. Christian missionaries preach to him. Having no access to information to the contrary, he accepts christianity to be the truth.
Person B - Born in an isolated part of Africa. Muslim missionaries preach to him. Having no access to information to the contrary, he accepts Islam to be the truth.
Person C - Born in an isolated part of Africa. He grows up living in an isolated tribe & during his life is never exposed to the teachings of any modern religion. He doesn’t accept christ as he has never even heard of Jesus.
Where will each of the three people end up after death?
It seems a tad unfair if person A goes to heaven, while persons B&C are tortured for eternity. Based on where they were born & the environment they were exposed to, it was almost inevitable where they would end up.
[/quote]
There is some belief that a person living in ignorance, yet seeking god, the creator, with his/her heart, and otherwise living a life not morally repugnant to God, might…MIGHT…be saved through God’s will. Might. As in maybe, or maybe not. Don’t know with certainty. Maybe. And that’s considering your extreme examples of people without opportunity. And, again, it’s still a might. So pretty much nobody here, seeing as they have access to a computer.[/quote]
But what if someone is taught from birth that the wrong religion is the truth & that they will end up in hell if they even question its validity. Did they really have the “opportunity” to accept the correct religion?
What about someone with a low IQ? They may not even have the mental capacity to weigh up the different options, so they will probably just have to accept what they are taught. If they are unlucky enough to be taught the wrong dogma, they get tortured for eternity.[/quote]
[quote]therajraj wrote:
According to Cardinal George Pell the answer is yes.
Go to 41:30[/quote]
It would have taken some honest searching. Quite frankly, it’s something very few atheists do. They tend to be more interested in berating theists then they are at seeking truth. Almost every atheist I know is completely wrong about the facets of religion and God and have zero interest in correcting themselves. If you are truly seeking truth, it’s possible, if you are seeking to prop up your ego, then it’s still possible, but it’s only up to God, in both circumstances. I have the advantage of actually liking God, so I don’t mind religion one bit.
If you were really, actually concerned about such a notion, you’d error on the side of God.
It makes zero sense to be an atheist and worry about heaven. So don’t worry about it.
Are you taking a chance? You bet. If all circumstances for understanding fell your way, your best shot at being correct is 50%. So it is a chance, but don’t worry, there is no such thing as heaven, maybe. [/quote]
It does make sense for an atheist (or agnostic) to care about the specifics of what christians (& muslims etc) believe.
A large proportion of the world have these beliefs & this has a direct impact on the lives of everyone.
If the majority of the worlds population held strong beliefs that seemed completely irrational to you & these beliefs had a major impact on the world, could you honestly say that you would have no interest in finding out the details of what they believe.
note - When I say irrational, I am not talking about the view that the universe must have been created by some form of higher power. I am talking about believing that the miracles performed by Jesus actually happened, or Allah actually spoke directly to Muhammad, or an angel really did lead Joseph Smith to a book of golden plates used to transcribe the words of god, or humans have souls called “thetans” which originated from alien beings, etc etc.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
According to Cardinal George Pell the answer is yes.
Go to 41:30[/quote]
I watched the whole debate last night on TV. Dawkins wasn’t as sharp as I expected, but some of the Cardinals comments were ridiculously retarded. It was pretty painful to watch.
For those that believe the answer to the above question is no, what are your thoughts on the following scenarios:
Person A - Born in an isolated part of Africa. Christian missionaries preach to him. Having no access to information to the contrary, he accepts christianity to be the truth.
Person B - Born in an isolated part of Africa. Muslim missionaries preach to him. Having no access to information to the contrary, he accepts Islam to be the truth.
Person C - Born in an isolated part of Africa. He grows up living in an isolated tribe & during his life is never exposed to the teachings of any modern religion. He doesn’t accept christ as he has never even heard of Jesus.
Where will each of the three people end up after death?
It seems a tad unfair if person A goes to heaven, while persons B&C are tortured for eternity. Based on where they were born & the environment they were exposed to, it was almost inevitable where they would end up.
[/quote]
There is some belief that a person living in ignorance, yet seeking god, the creator, with his/her heart, and otherwise living a life not morally repugnant to God, might…MIGHT…be saved through God’s will. Might. As in maybe, or maybe not. Don’t know with certainty. Maybe. And that’s considering your extreme examples of people without opportunity. And, again, it’s still a might. So pretty much nobody here, seeing as they have access to a computer.[/quote]
But what if someone is taught from birth that the wrong religion is the truth & that they will end up in hell if they even question its validity. Did they really have the “opportunity” to accept the correct religion?
What about someone with a low IQ? They may not even have the mental capacity to weigh up the different options, so they will probably just have to accept what they are taught. If they are unlucky enough to be taught the wrong dogma, they get tortured for eternity.[/quote]
You quoted the answer to this question. [/quote]
You said that this pretty much rules out anyone with access to a computer.
So basically, if you have some form of access to the teachings of christianity but dont convert, chances are you will end up in hell?
[quote]kamui wrote:
I hope i won’t go to Heaven.
If i do, i will end up discussing (a)theology, epistemology and philosophy with Christians.
For eternity. [/quote]
Maybe god sends us to heaven so we can spend eternity rueing over how wrong we were.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
According to Cardinal George Pell the answer is yes.
Go to 41:30[/quote]
I watched the whole debate last night on TV. Dawkins wasn’t as sharp as I expected, but some of the Cardinals comments were ridiculously retarded. It was pretty painful to watch.
For those that believe the answer to the above question is no, what are your thoughts on the following scenarios:
Person A - Born in an isolated part of Africa. Christian missionaries preach to him. Having no access to information to the contrary, he accepts christianity to be the truth.
Person B - Born in an isolated part of Africa. Muslim missionaries preach to him. Having no access to information to the contrary, he accepts Islam to be the truth.
Person C - Born in an isolated part of Africa. He grows up living in an isolated tribe & during his life is never exposed to the teachings of any modern religion. He doesn’t accept christ as he has never even heard of Jesus.
Where will each of the three people end up after death?
It seems a tad unfair if person A goes to heaven, while persons B&C are tortured for eternity. Based on where they were born & the environment they were exposed to, it was almost inevitable where they would end up.
[/quote]
There is some belief that a person living in ignorance, yet seeking god, the creator, with his/her heart, and otherwise living a life not morally repugnant to God, might…MIGHT…be saved through God’s will. Might. As in maybe, or maybe not. Don’t know with certainty. Maybe. And that’s considering your extreme examples of people without opportunity. And, again, it’s still a might. So pretty much nobody here, seeing as they have access to a computer.[/quote]
But what if someone is taught from birth that the wrong religion is the truth & that they will end up in hell if they even question its validity. Did they really have the “opportunity” to accept the correct religion?
What about someone with a low IQ? They may not even have the mental capacity to weigh up the different options, so they will probably just have to accept what they are taught. If they are unlucky enough to be taught the wrong dogma, they get tortured for eternity.[/quote]
You quoted the answer to this question. [/quote]
You said that this pretty much rules out anyone with access to a computer.
So basically, if you have some form of access to the teachings of christianity but dont convert, chances are you will end up in hell?[/quote]
[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
But what if someone is taught from birth that the wrong religion is the truth & that they will end up in hell if they even question its validity. Did they really have the “opportunity” to accept the correct religion?
What about someone with a low IQ? They may not even have the mental capacity to weigh up the different options, so they will probably just have to accept what they are taught. If they are unlucky enough to be taught the wrong dogma, they get tortured for eternity.[/quote]
I’ve asked similar questions before of Tirib. [/quote]Things I know for sure:
->Every last person ever conceived as the progeny of father Adam, the moment the sperm meets the egg, is damnably sinful and justly condemned to hell. Sinners spawn sinners.
->NO person who EVER EVER EVER sees heaven will do so apart from the sinless life, blood sacrifice and resurrection life of Jesus Christ absolutely alone.
->EVERY person actively worshiping ANYTHING or ANYONE other than the true and living God, Father, Son and Holy Ghost through a self conscious reliance upon the Son for their access to this God is an idolator and by definition has shown themselves as certainly bound for hell as any of the most vile and horrific murderous criminals in history. There is absolutely nothing God more clearly reveals His hatred for than self righteous religious idolatry.
->In other words, an outwardly squeaky clean suburbanite family man, faithful to his wife and family, a church goer and generally all round “good” guy, who does not trust the righteousness of Christ for his justification before God is going to the same hell as Jeffrey Dahmer.
->There is no person God hates more than those who call themselves by His name and either by their fatally false beliefs, flagrantly sinful life or both, misrepresent Him in the earth.
->Absolutely ANYBODY, from our finite viewpoint, CAN be saved. There is NO sin so evil, violent, debauched, vile, perverse, depraved, sick, twisted or long standing that is more powerful than the death defeating blood and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
->Therefore God CAN save anybody He wants to, anywhere He wants to.
->However, He tells us that that He only does that by the preaching of His gospel and that those who never hear or hear false religion are justly lost and damned. Not because they never hear. But because they deserve to be. NO person has any claim upon God’s favor which is freely given by Him as HE sees fit.
Things I DON’T know for sure:
->Whether all infants or aborted babies go to heaven. I do know that IF they do it is by the most awesome lovingkindness and mercy of God in whose sovereign hand lies absolutely everything. IF they do, it is by the gracious application of the merits of Christ that even they are saved. They are conceived sinful and lost and IF they go to heaven it is because they have been truly and sovereignly saved the same as adults. In the absence of evidence to the contrary I personally believe that they go to heaven because it makes me feel good.
->I also don’t know about imbeciles, those conceived and born clearly impaired to the degree that we can’t be sure that their human conscience is intact. God however is sure as He is with everything else. There’s too much we aren’t told for me to hold a clear view here. The fact that I cant see their conscience operating says literally nothing of what God sees. Generally speaking? The same holds for imbeciles as does for infants and the unborn. If ANYBODY is in heaven, if is through the merits of Christ alone.
->I further cannot know for absolutely certain that not one person who doesn’t hear the gospel from human lips will be saved. (Paul was) I do know that if there are any it is by special revelation through angels or a theophanic vision or some other mechanism by which they will KNOW it is Christ who is saving them. There is absolutely NOBODY who winds up before the throne of the Lord without knowing how they got there.
Entire volumes have been written on these topics. This is necessarily concise and incomplete. No council, bishop or pope will ever in a trillion years talk me out of anything definitive I’ve said above. I know you’re on your way dearest Christopher =] And I know EXACTLY where too.
EDIT: I can’t take it. This Gonzalez guy still has the most hysterical avatar ever LOL!! That is SO funny LOL!!
Logic is born from the God of heaven. Right now wouldn’t be soon enough for me. I’m hopin for ya Lifty. You’re naive and screwy sometimes, but I’ve always been kinda fond of you ya know.
I rise every day and get armored for war with the enemy, the world and my own carnality. I am no paragon of puritanical perfection and make no pretense to being such.[/quote]
Good, then maybe you will resere the judging for the Judge.
Lifty makes ridiculously stupid comments based on ridiculously stupid assumptions, and I advise him of that. You have decided that you are judge and jury over whether other folks’ religion “measures up”, and you inform people without solicitation and without context that their faith is “evil” and “soulless”.
If you don’t recognize the difference, it ain’t my problem to fix.
Well, your recent tone-deaf insistence of jamming it into every conceivable conservation or debate says otherwise, and as a result, you’ve become insufferable. You act like the college freshman who suddenly “discovered” psychology and now can’t enter an adult conversation without explaining the world through psychology.
As for your thread, I’ve said a number of times - and I’ll say it again - I have no interest in your thoughts on epistemology. I’ll say it again, just so we’re clear - I don’t have any interest in your thoughts on epistemology.
That is why I decline participation - no other reason. Epistemology is a fascinating subject - I just am not all that interested in your take on it.
My “scorn” isn’t because you started and continue a thread on epistemology. My “scorn” is a result of your plain inability to saty on topic and limit your crusade so that it doesn’t devolve yet another thread into trench warfare over whether Calvinists or Catholics have it right.
And that is, to be crystal clear, exactly what you do - you try and make every topic about Calvinism vs. “false faiths”. Sloth makes a comment in thid thread that despite Orion’s desire to the contrary, he is not interested in trying to convert Orion to Christianity in this thread - what do you do? You attempt to ignite the battle between Calvinism vs. Catholicism - again.