Can Atheists go to Heaven?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

[quote]Dt546 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Dt546 wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]B.L.U. Ninja wrote:
I’m with Orion on this one. I don’t see the point serving an unseen entity. I’d rather serve fellow human beings who are with me here on Earth, than take a leap of faith on something so unbelievably ludicrous, that it has created more destruction and death than it has good.
[/quote]

Hold your horses, human beings are so incredibly fucked up that it is questionable whether organized religion was even able to do any significant damage.

For all we know we still might be sacrificing virgins without their spiritual struggle.

We would have trouble finding any, but still.[/quote]

Do you have any evidence to back this, or is it purely speculation?[/quote]

There once was a catholic Church.

Small c on purpose. When it was no longer catholic it became bloody.

Then we had nationalism, socialism, fascism, communism, bloody, bloody, bloody…

People like mass movements and belief systems, dont ask me why, they do.

I would say Europeans are just about ready for the next round, Americans still believe in God.

Does not make any sense to me, I am just observing this. [/quote]

For the most part I feel you are correct. But the holy book that the catholics worship is horrbily barbaric. Maybe i am misunderstanding your statement about “no longer catholic.” [/quote]

Catholic as in all encompassing, generally binding.

Therefore the small c.

142

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Popularity is not my goal. Obedience is. [/quote]

And, interestingly, you don’t appear to be succeeding at either.

By whom? And it is “modernistic powder puff” to suggest that the best way to dialogue on religious matters with people of other faiths is not to stalk them and denigrate them at every turn, even when the thread is talking about something else?

You think you know, but you don’t. It’s comforting - it’s part of your newfound arrogance, “I’ve got epistemology - the key to everything! - all figure out, and no one else does!” - but I am no stranger to the concept of epistemology. I began taking an interest in it through reading Hume and his Problem of Induction long before you stumbled across it tried to ram it down everyone’s throats no matter what the subject matter at hand is.

So, can it.

You’ve tried this before, and it meets the same results as it did last time. Just because I elect not to waste time in that thread - in addition to my other concerns with the thread, I do have a day job, you know - isn’t an indication I am ill-equipped to opine on the topic.

I just don’t throw good time a rabbit hole.

143

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Dt546 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Dt546 wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Dt546 wrote:

Do you have any evidence to back this, or is it purely speculation?[/quote]

Are you an atheist?
[/quote]

I dont believe me beliefs are important to the conversation. What is accepted as evidence shouldnt change based upon religious background, but unfortunately…

I was simply inquiring on if she could offer a logical explanation on why she thought human beings would still be barbaric, without religion.[/quote]

I didn’t know Orion (I always said it O’Ryan) was a girl! Since, when?[/quote]

Umm what? Since when what?
[/quote]

I believe orion is a dude (of course I could have gotten mixed signals with his flirting), you said she…I assume you were referencing orion (pronounced o’ryan; correct me if I am wrong). [/quote]

What flirting?

Lol----[/quote]

Don’t make me produce those PM’s! Don’t deny our relationship!

No, with DN.

144

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:Anyway, sounds like Tirib has given into the doctrine of Invincible Ignorance, with your giving in when you say, “I will not be the one to say that there will be zero people in heaven who have never had the gospel preached to them, but they are the infinitesimally microscopic minority if they exist.” He has forever given me a quote to show that he believes in IT.
Regards,
BC[/quote]And you are welcome to it Christopher. =] I’m more than happy to agree here we do. We’ll talk more about this, but this is not what I got outta newadvent OR especially Pat or even Cortes though they can correct me if I’m wrong.

145

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:Anyway, sounds like Tirib has given into the doctrine of Invincible Ignorance, with your giving in when you say, “I will not be the one to say that there will be zero people in heaven who have never had the gospel preached to them, but they are the infinitesimally microscopic minority if they exist.” He has forever given me a quote to show that he believes in IT.
Regards,
BC[/quote]And you are welcome to it Christopher. =] I’m more than happy to agree here we do. We’ll talk more about this, but this is not what I got outta newadvent OR especially Pat or even Cortes though they can correct me if I’m wrong.
[/quote]

I’m sure. You seem to understand our religion, but we don’t yours. I believe that is a rhetorical technique.

146

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Dt546 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]B.L.U. Ninja wrote:
I’ll say this though, if there really was an Intelligent Designer, I would expect him to make human beings innately well meaning to begin with. I can’t speculate whether or not human beings would have been better with or without religion, but historical evidence tells us that religious dick swinging has been responsible(directly or indirectly) for some of the most horrific crimes, mass murders, genocides and oppression all over the world.

I don’t know if this fact is even refutable, since the Bible, specifically the Old Testament advocates slavery, selling your daughter, and other barbaric acts. (Deutoronomy, Exodus).[/quote]

Got a source for any of this?[/quote]

Are you asking for the bible passages, or historical evidende to support the whole murder, genocide part of the post?
[/quote]

Well when you come with pretty big claims, you better come with some sauces! Am I Right?[/quote]

“Then God said: ‘Take your son Isaac, your only one, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah. There you shall offer him up as a holocaust on a height that I will point out to you’.”(Genesis 22:2)

“Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse.” (1 Peter 2:18)

“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet.” (1 Timothy 2:12)

“Happy those who seize your children and smash them against a rock.” (Psalm 137:9)

If after this you still refuse to listen and still remain hostile toward me, then I will give full vent to my hostility. I will punish you seven times over for your sins. You will eat the flesh of your own sons and daughters… (Leviticus 26:27-35 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Surely though, God > Edgar Allan Poe. Hands down.

147

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:Anyway, sounds like Tirib has given into the doctrine of Invincible Ignorance, with your giving in when you say, “I will not be the one to say that there will be zero people in heaven who have never had the gospel preached to them, but they are the infinitesimally microscopic minority if they exist.” He has forever given me a quote to show that he believes in IT.
Regards,
BC[/quote]And you are welcome to it Christopher. =] I’m more than happy to agree where we do. We’ll talk more about this, but this is not what I got outta newadvent OR especially Pat or even Cortes though they can correct me if I’m wrong.
[/quote]I’m sure. You seem to understand our religion, but we don’t yours. I believe that is a rhetorical technique.[/quote]“I’m more than happy to agree Where we do.” is how that should have read Chris. Typo there. I don’t know what you mean by this statement of yours here. I’m guessing you’re being a bit sarcastic. You guys do regularly attribute to me statements I have explicitly denied numerous times. Pat was the world champion of that before he put me on ignore. Even Elder Forlife came to my defense. Like I say, if we actually do agree on invincible ignorance I will have no problem acknowledging that though I have a feeling it won’t be the case after all.

I am out of time for now at work. I’m not ignoring you Thunderbolt. Hopefully later. For now I’ll just say that I adopted my view on epistemology in the late 80’s as I have repeatedly reported. I believe on the first page of the epistemology thread too. (Pretty sure, can’t verify now)

148

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Dt546 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]B.L.U. Ninja wrote:
I’ll say this though, if there really was an Intelligent Designer, I would expect him to make human beings innately well meaning to begin with. I can’t speculate whether or not human beings would have been better with or without religion, but historical evidence tells us that religious dick swinging has been responsible(directly or indirectly) for some of the most horrific crimes, mass murders, genocides and oppression all over the world.

I don’t know if this fact is even refutable, since the Bible, specifically the Old Testament advocates slavery, selling your daughter, and other barbaric acts. (Deutoronomy, Exodus).[/quote]

Got a source for any of this?[/quote]

Are you asking for the bible passages, or historical evidende to support the whole murder, genocide part of the post?
[/quote]

Well when you come with pretty big claims, you better come with some sauces! Am I Right?[/quote]

Sudanese Civil War (Islam vs Christianity)

French War (Protestants vs Catholics)

Lebanese Civil War

Jihad(holy wars, on going to this day)

http://www.lepg.org/wars.htm

149

Sloth: Okay

150

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:Popularity is not my goal. Obedience is. [/quote]And, interestingly, you don’t appear to be succeeding at either. >>>[/quote]Now there you go again. Making a statement loaded with implications instead of simply pointing me to your source of my alleged disobedience. I am referring to obedience to the revealed mind of God in the Holy Bible. What are you referring to as the standard by which you advance your above accusation of failure. Ya know, I threw one of these at Aragorn a little while back and he delivered. He pm’d me a rebuke that I had to bow too. The reason was that he had me dead to rights on my failure to follow a biblical procedure that he knew I knew, but I had not obeyed it. In public. He was right and I told him so. And even then I may have blown it the exact same way with his majesty KingKai25 just a few weeks later. I rise every day and get armored for war with the enemy, the world and my own carnality. I am no paragon of puritanical perfection and make no pretense to being such.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:…but at the same time your modernistic powder puff definition of “humility” is disastrously ill advised.[/quote]<<< By whom? And it is “modernistic powder puff” to suggest that the best way to dialogue on religious matters with people of other faiths is not to stalk them and denigrate them at every turn, even when the thread is talking about something else? >>>[/quote]By the historic Christian scriptures and gospel. Anybody today who displays unbending conviction on anything (like you do and should) is immediately labeled arrogant. I wouldn’t talk about a dog the way you talk to and treat Lifty sometimes. You denigrate and assault his intelligence and hence his person. That is arrogance. I don’t like it, but it doesn’t make you an especially horrible guy. It makes you human and arrogant. Like the rest of us. I made one generic comment several weeks ago and left it alone.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:I don’t think you know what to do with the subject matter of the epistemology thread.[/quote]You think you know, but you don’t. It’s comforting - it’s part of your newfound arrogance, “I’ve got epistemology - the key to everything! - all figure out, and no one else does!” - but I am no stranger to the concept of epistemology. I began taking an interest in it through reading Hume and his Problem of Induction long before you stumbled across it tried to ram it down everyone’s throats no matter what the subject matter at hand is. So, can it. >>>[/quote]I don? Here we go with this now too. You negatively caricature both the substance and the attitude of a thread with 9000+ views since the 13th of February, but will scamper off with the rabbit hole comment below if I politely and VERY respectfully challenge you to demonstrate your claims. 1988 I discovered epistemology Thunderbolt. This is not some new neato intellectual toy I just found to play games with people with.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:I hasten to clarify that that is absolutely NO denigration by me of your manifestly superb cerebral powers and education which I have openly and unceasingly declared my highest respect for. I just don’t think you feel yourself especially equipped in that area. There is not a thing wrong with that if true.[/quote]You’ve tried this before, and it meets the same results as it did last time. Just because I elect not to waste time in that thread - in addition to my other concerns with the thread, I do have a day job, you know - isn’t an indication I am ill-equipped to opine on the topic. I just don’t throw good time a rabbit hole.[/quote]I’m trying it again now and I’ll try it again in the future. Of course you have a job. Totally understandable, but it does seem a bit disingenuous to point your scorn at somebody and then say, "but I won’t substantiate that because it’s a rabbit hole and I have a job. May I ask some of your other concerns. I will never trifle with you. I am asking sincerely.

My apologies to the mods. I’m experimenting with a new quote nesting scheme with this post for the first time.

151

If an atheist is posing this question wouldn’t it be a bit odd in the first place? Seeing as atheists don’t generally believe in God or Heaven…

Heaven for me would be to have unlimited amounts of drugs that effected me and then i had no hangover/side effects ever. That plus delicious food, women and a few other ridiculously shallow things. Needless to say I don’t really think this question is all that pertinent to me. Since I don’t believe in the Christian God or any other for that matter and certainly don’t think the pearly gates would be opening for me even if they did exist.

152

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:Popularity is not my goal. Obedience is. [/quote]And, interestingly, you don’t appear to be succeeding at either. >>>[/quote]Now there you go again. Making a statement loaded with implications instead of simply pointing me to your source of my alleged disobedience. I am referring to obedience to the revealed mind of God in the Holy Bible. What are you referring to as the standard by which you advance your above accusation of failure. Ya know, I threw one of these at Aragorn a little while back and he delivered. He pm’d me a rebuke that I had to bow to. The reason was that he had me dead to rights on my failure to follow a biblical procedure that he knew I knew, but I had not obeyed it. In public. He was right and I told him so. And even then I may have blown it the exact same way with his majesty KingKai25 just a few weeks later. I rise every day and get armored for war with the enemy, the world and my own carnality. I am no paragon of puritanical perfection and make no pretense to being such.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:…but at the same time your modernistic powder puff definition of “humility” is disastrously ill advised.[/quote]<<< By whom? And it is “modernistic powder puff” to suggest that the best way to dialogue on religious matters with people of other faiths is not to stalk them and denigrate them at every turn, even when the thread is talking about something else? >>>[/quote]By the historic Christian scriptures and gospel. Anybody today who displays unbending conviction on anything (like you do and should) is immediately labeled arrogant. I wouldn’t talk about a dog the way you talk to and treat Lifty sometimes. You denigrate and assault his intelligence and hence his person. That is arrogance. I don’t like it, but it doesn’t make you an especially horrible guy. It makes you human and arrogant. Like the rest of us. I made one generic comment several weeks ago and left it alone.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:I don’t think you know what to do with the subject matter of the epistemology thread.[/quote]You think you know, but you don’t. It’s comforting - it’s part of your newfound arrogance, “I’ve got epistemology - the key to everything! - all figure out, and no one else does!” - but I am no stranger to the concept of epistemology. I began taking an interest in it through reading Hume and his Problem of Induction long before you stumbled across it tried to ram it down everyone’s throats no matter what the subject matter at hand is. So, can it. >>>[/quote]I don’t? Here we go with this now too. You negatively caricature both the substance and the attitude of a thread with 9000+ views since the 13th of February, but will scamper off with the rabbit hole comment below if I politely and VERY respectfully challenge you to demonstrate your claims. 1988 I discovered epistemology Thunderbolt. This is not some new neato intellectual toy I just found to play games with people with.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:I hasten to clarify that that is absolutely NO denigration by me of your manifestly superb cerebral powers and education which I have openly and unceasingly declared my highest respect for. I just don’t think you feel yourself especially equipped in that area. There is not a thing wrong with that if true.[/quote]You’ve tried this before, and it meets the same results as it did last time. Just because I elect not to waste time in that thread - in addition to my other concerns with the thread, I do have a day job, you know - isn’t an indication I am ill-equipped to opine on the topic. I just don’t throw good time a rabbit hole.[/quote]I’m trying it again now and I’ll try it again in the future. Of course you have a job. Totally understandable, but it does seem a bit disingenuous to point your scorn at somebody and then say, "but I won’t substantiate that because it’s a rabbit hole and I have a job. May I ask some of your other concerns. I will never trifle with you. I am asking sincerely.

My apologies to the mods. I’m experimenting with a new quote nesting scheme with this post for the first time.

153

I hope i won’t go to Heaven.
If i do, i will end up discussing (a)theology, epistemology and philosophy with Christians.
For eternity.

154

On other hand…
If i go to Hell, i may end up discussing politics and economics with libertarians.

Heaven may be ok, after all.

155

[quote]B.L.U. Ninja wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Dt546 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]B.L.U. Ninja wrote:
I’ll say this though, if there really was an Intelligent Designer, I would expect him to make human beings innately well meaning to begin with. I can’t speculate whether or not human beings would have been better with or without religion, but historical evidence tells us that religious dick swinging has been responsible(directly or indirectly) for some of the most horrific crimes, mass murders, genocides and oppression all over the world.

I don’t know if this fact is even refutable, since the Bible, specifically the Old Testament advocates slavery, selling your daughter, and other barbaric acts. (Deutoronomy, Exodus).[/quote]

Got a source for any of this?[/quote]

Are you asking for the bible passages, or historical evidende to support the whole murder, genocide part of the post?
[/quote]

Well when you come with pretty big claims, you better come with some sauces! Am I Right?[/quote]

“Then God said: ‘Take your son Isaac, your only one, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah. There you shall offer him up as a holocaust on a height that I will point out to you’.”(Genesis 22:2)[/quote]

Yes, but God does not allow him to sacrifice Isaac.

Yes, please tell us what is inherently evil about slavery? Further, you do realize that this is not advocating slavery, Peter is telling Christian slaves to be obedient to their masters.

Yes, women cannot be part of the teaching ministry exercised by the ordained clergy (1 Cor 14:34-35), since only men can ordained clergy. Not an absolute prohibition of women teaching.

“In the spiritual sense, we dash the littel ones of Babylon against the rock, when we mortify our passions, and stifle the first motions of them, by a speedy recourse to the rock, which is Christ.” - Haydock Commentary.

[quote]If after this you still refuse to listen and still remain hostile toward me, then I will give full vent to my hostility. I will punish you seven times over for your sins. You will eat the flesh of your own sons and daughters… (Leviticus 26:27-35 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Surely though, God > Edgar Allan Poe. Hands down.

[/quote]

Anyway, enough of this, I was talking about this comment, “historical evidence tells us that religious dick swinging has been responsible(directly or indirectly) for some of the most horrific crimes, mass murders, genocides and oppression all over the world.”

156

[quote]B.L.U. Ninja wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Dt546 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]B.L.U. Ninja wrote:
I’ll say this though, if there really was an Intelligent Designer, I would expect him to make human beings innately well meaning to begin with. I can’t speculate whether or not human beings would have been better with or without religion, but historical evidence tells us that religious dick swinging has been responsible(directly or indirectly) for some of the most horrific crimes, mass murders, genocides and oppression all over the world.

I don’t know if this fact is even refutable, since the Bible, specifically the Old Testament advocates slavery, selling your daughter, and other barbaric acts. (Deutoronomy, Exodus).[/quote]

Got a source for any of this?[/quote]

Are you asking for the bible passages, or historical evidende to support the whole murder, genocide part of the post?
[/quote]

Well when you come with pretty big claims, you better come with some sauces! Am I Right?[/quote]

Sudanese Civil War (Islam vs Christianity)

French War (Protestants vs Catholics)

Lebanese Civil War

Jihad(holy wars, on going to this day)

http://www.lepg.org/wars.htm

[/quote]

Hitler, Stalin, Castro, Mao, Pol Pot, &c. &c. &c.

157

[quote]kamui wrote:
On other hand…
If i go to Hell, i may end up discussing politics and economics with libertarians.

Heaven may be ok, after all.

[/quote]

Lol. Well, if you come to heaven, I’ll make sure to save you a seat at the table.

158

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]B.L.U. Ninja wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Dt546 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]B.L.U. Ninja wrote:
I’ll say this though, if there really was an Intelligent Designer, I would expect him to make human beings innately well meaning to begin with. I can’t speculate whether or not human beings would have been better with or without religion, but historical evidence tells us that religious dick swinging has been responsible(directly or indirectly) for some of the most horrific crimes, mass murders, genocides and oppression all over the world.

I don’t know if this fact is even refutable, since the Bible, specifically the Old Testament advocates slavery, selling your daughter, and other barbaric acts. (Deutoronomy, Exodus).[/quote]

Got a source for any of this?[/quote]

Are you asking for the bible passages, or historical evidende to support the whole murder, genocide part of the post?
[/quote]

Well when you come with pretty big claims, you better come with some sauces! Am I Right?[/quote]

Sudanese Civil War (Islam vs Christianity)

French War (Protestants vs Catholics)

Lebanese Civil War

Jihad(holy wars, on going to this day)

http://www.lepg.org/wars.htm

[/quote]

Hitler, Stalin, Castro, Mao, Pol Pot, &c. &c. &c.
[/quote]

They never claimed to devote their life to a theology that was against killing though. People like to point out religious wars because it usually contracts something in the religion.

159

[quote]kamui wrote:
Where do pantheists go after death ?
[/quote]
Trick or treating…

160

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
As for hell, I bet if someone shoved the 11th million pitchfork up your ass you would be bored too.

[/quote]

So if you were gang raped in a prison everyday you’d get board? I think I would still have a problem with it 11 million times later.[/quote]

Na.

You would be as wide open as a barn door and psychologically adjusted to it.

It would be like a nice cup of tea really.[/quote]

Care to test that theory?