q
Outstanding Groo!! That IS a good one. Except for Satan inventing video cameras and God getting tired of doing them though. I DO believe He keeps His authentic work largely out of the public eye in this season. For good reason that while not as crystal clear as the Words of the Lord above are knowable nonetheless. Listen, I can only tackle nine projects at once until the Lord gives me an upgrade and this is another one. I need sleep. I left dearest Christopher, Mr. Chen, APBT, BigBoss and another guy who asked about the anabolic diet also forever ago hangin again. I owe posts to a couple other people I can’t recall through the sleepless fog right now too. Chris is planned for my number one priority for the next week, Lord willing.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
According to Cardinal George Pell the answer is yes.
Go to 41:30[/quote]
I watched the whole debate last night on TV. Dawkins wasn’t as sharp as I expected, but some of the Cardinals comments were ridiculously retarded. It was pretty painful to watch.
For those that believe the answer to the above question is no, what are your thoughts on the following scenarios:
Person A - Born in an isolated part of Africa. Christian missionaries preach to him. Having no access to information to the contrary, he accepts christianity to be the truth.
Person B - Born in an isolated part of Africa. Muslim missionaries preach to him. Having no access to information to the contrary, he accepts Islam to be the truth.
Person C - Born in an isolated part of Africa. He grows up living in an isolated tribe & during his life is never exposed to the teachings of any modern religion. He doesn’t accept christ as he has never even heard of Jesus.
Where will each of the three people end up after death?
It seems a tad unfair if person A goes to heaven, while persons B&C are tortured for eternity. Based on where they were born & the environment they were exposed to, it was almost inevitable where they would end up.
The answer to all three is in the quotes from Jesus I posted to Sparky above. True Christian salvation from sin and death into which ALL are born is NOT the intellectual acquiescence to a data set of propositions among competing options. It is the supernatural resurrection from death in sin to life in Christ promised to every man “who beholds the Son and believes in Him [so that they] have eternal life, and [He Himself] will raise [them] up on the last day”.
That can include all or none of the specimens from all or none of the scenarios you cite. God alone has that knowledge and God alone determines justice. He will not be knocking on your door or mine inquiring about what we think is fair or not. Romans 10:9-17 (esv) [quote]<<< 9-because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10-For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
11-For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12-For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13-For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14-How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15-And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16-But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?”
17-So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. >>>[/quote]There IS some contextual relevance here, but the message stands. I will not be the one to say that there will be zero people in heaven who have never had the gospel preached to them, but they are the infinitesimally microscopic minority if they exist. Paul makes it plain here. One must HEAR, confess with their mouth and believe in their HEART that Jesus is Lord and is raised from the dead on their behalf.
Once again, my Catholic friends will be along to help God out and make this seem not nearly as “bad” to you.
OOPS!!! =[=[=[
[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
I watched the whole debate last night on TV. Dawkins wasn’t as sharp as I expected, but some of the Cardinals comments were ridiculously retarded. It was pretty painful to watch.
[/quote]
Dawkins is a brilliant man but he’s never been much an orator or debater.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Enough? Where do you get your rules of Christianity Thunderbolt? Is this YOU telling me “enough”? If so, why should I care?[/quote]
Because we self-regulate in this forum to try and stay (reasonably) on-topic, and while I am only one voice expressing my displeasure with your tone-deaf crusade, I am not the only one. By now, you should have gotten the message. But you haven’t.
See what I mean? You try to derail every conversation and topic into a debate on “substance” as to who has the right version of Christianity. If I started a thread on who should go number one in the NFL draft, it wouldn’t be long before you would start complaining that “modernist biblical butchers” and “soulless Catholics” are unable or unwilling to divert the conversation to a “hey, you know what’s awesome, Calvinism is awesome, let’s see if your faith measures up to my measuring stick” thread every single time.
It has gotten old. You’re “Hijack Haven” thread appeared to be a sign that the message had gotten through, but it’s clear you can’t help yourself.
No, I’m not, and this is just a tantrum with a “I know you are but what am I” response.
This is exactly what I am talking about. I say “give it a rest, you’re going off-topic again with your uncontrollable desire to attack Catholics” and once again you try a “show me where I am wrong about the Bible!”. You want to - yet again - start a debate over who has the “right version”.
You’re entirely too predictable, you can’t help yourself. Problem is, you lack the essential ingredient you need for your mission - humility.
Rest assured, you cause more damage to your mission than you help it. I can tell you I enjoy reading on theology quite a bit, but I’ve never been less interested in learning about Calvinism, even from an academic point of view. Well done.
I have zero interest in that thread.
[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
According to Cardinal George Pell the answer is yes.
Go to 41:30[/quote]
I watched the whole debate last night on TV. Dawkins wasn’t as sharp as I expected, but some of the Cardinals comments were ridiculously retarded. It was pretty painful to watch.
For those that believe the answer to the above question is no, what are your thoughts on the following scenarios:
Person A - Born in an isolated part of Africa. Christian missionaries preach to him. Having no access to information to the contrary, he accepts christianity to be the truth.
Person B - Born in an isolated part of Africa. Muslim missionaries preach to him. Having no access to information to the contrary, he accepts Islam to be the truth.
Person C - Born in an isolated part of Africa. He grows up living in an isolated tribe & during his life is never exposed to the teachings of any modern religion. He doesn’t accept christ as he has never even heard of Jesus.
Where will each of the three people end up after death?
It seems a tad unfair if person A goes to heaven, while persons B&C are tortured for eternity. Based on where they were born & the environment they were exposed to, it was almost inevitable where they would end up.
[/quote]
There is some belief that a person living in ignorance, yet seeking god, the creator, with his/her heart, and otherwise living a life not morally repugnant to God, might…MIGHT…be saved through God’s will. Might. As in maybe, or maybe not. Don’t know with certainty. Maybe. And that’s considering your extreme examples of people without opportunity. And, again, it’s still a might. So pretty much nobody here, seeing as they have access to a computer.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
According to Cardinal George Pell the answer is yes.
Go to 41:30[/quote]
I watched the whole debate last night on TV. Dawkins wasn’t as sharp as I expected, but some of the Cardinals comments were ridiculously retarded. It was pretty painful to watch.
For those that believe the answer to the above question is no, what are your thoughts on the following scenarios:
Person A - Born in an isolated part of Africa. Christian missionaries preach to him. Having no access to information to the contrary, he accepts christianity to be the truth.
Person B - Born in an isolated part of Africa. Muslim missionaries preach to him. Having no access to information to the contrary, he accepts Islam to be the truth.
Person C - Born in an isolated part of Africa. He grows up living in an isolated tribe & during his life is never exposed to the teachings of any modern religion. He doesn’t accept christ as he has never even heard of Jesus.
Where will each of the three people end up after death?
It seems a tad unfair if person A goes to heaven, while persons B&C are tortured for eternity. Based on where they were born & the environment they were exposed to, it was almost inevitable where they would end up.
[/quote]
There is some belief that a person living in ignorance, yet seeking god, the creator, with his/her heart, and otherwise living a life not morally repugnant to God, might…MIGHT…be saved through God’s will. Might. As in maybe, or maybe not. Don’t know with certainty. Maybe. And that’s considering your extreme examples of people without opportunity. And, again, it’s still a might. So pretty much nobody here, seeing as they have access to a computer.[/quote]
Have you ever read the religious texts of other religions?
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
According to Cardinal George Pell the answer is yes.
Go to 41:30[/quote]
I watched the whole debate last night on TV. Dawkins wasn’t as sharp as I expected, but some of the Cardinals comments were ridiculously retarded. It was pretty painful to watch.
For those that believe the answer to the above question is no, what are your thoughts on the following scenarios:
Person A - Born in an isolated part of Africa. Christian missionaries preach to him. Having no access to information to the contrary, he accepts christianity to be the truth.
Person B - Born in an isolated part of Africa. Muslim missionaries preach to him. Having no access to information to the contrary, he accepts Islam to be the truth.
Person C - Born in an isolated part of Africa. He grows up living in an isolated tribe & during his life is never exposed to the teachings of any modern religion. He doesn’t accept christ as he has never even heard of Jesus.
Where will each of the three people end up after death?
It seems a tad unfair if person A goes to heaven, while persons B&C are tortured for eternity. Based on where they were born & the environment they were exposed to, it was almost inevitable where they would end up.
[/quote]
There is some belief that a person living in ignorance, yet seeking god, the creator, with his/her heart, and otherwise living a life not morally repugnant to God, might…MIGHT…be saved through God’s will. Might. As in maybe, or maybe not. Don’t know with certainty. Maybe. And that’s considering your extreme examples of people without opportunity. And, again, it’s still a might. So pretty much nobody here, seeing as they have access to a computer.[/quote]
Have you ever read the religious texts of other religions?[/quote]
Nope. Well, certainty not even close to the degree of the bible. And I don’t care if theoretically I might go to their version of hell, anymore than I care that atheists figure we go to oblivion. Nor do my other-religious acquaintances worry about my Christian view of salvation/post-death residency. I’ve noticed it’s an atheistic preoccupation.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
According to Cardinal George Pell the answer is yes.
Go to 41:30[/quote]
I watched the whole debate last night on TV. Dawkins wasn’t as sharp as I expected, but some of the Cardinals comments were ridiculously retarded. It was pretty painful to watch.
For those that believe the answer to the above question is no, what are your thoughts on the following scenarios:
Person A - Born in an isolated part of Africa. Christian missionaries preach to him. Having no access to information to the contrary, he accepts christianity to be the truth.
Person B - Born in an isolated part of Africa. Muslim missionaries preach to him. Having no access to information to the contrary, he accepts Islam to be the truth.
Person C - Born in an isolated part of Africa. He grows up living in an isolated tribe & during his life is never exposed to the teachings of any modern religion. He doesn’t accept christ as he has never even heard of Jesus.
Where will each of the three people end up after death?
It seems a tad unfair if person A goes to heaven, while persons B&C are tortured for eternity. Based on where they were born & the environment they were exposed to, it was almost inevitable where they would end up.
[/quote]
There is some belief that a person living in ignorance, yet seeking god, the creator, with his/her heart, and otherwise living a life not morally repugnant to God, might…MIGHT…be saved through God’s will. Might. As in maybe, or maybe not. Don’t know with certainty. Maybe. And that’s considering your extreme examples of people without opportunity. And, again, it’s still a might. So pretty much nobody here, seeing as they have access to a computer.[/quote]
Have you ever read the religious texts of other religions?[/quote]
Nope. Well, certainty not even close to the degree of the bible. And I don’t care if theoretically I might go to their version of hell, anymore than I care that atheists figure we go to oblivion. Nor do my other-religious acquaintances worry about my Christian view of salvation/post-death residency. I’ve noticed it’s an atheistic preoccupation.[/quote]
Well it’s just that I find it odd that you tell us we have no excuse since we have access to a computer but won’t carry that idea forward with respect to yourself and other religions.
I do carry it forward. I’m aware of the basic tenets of other religions, and if they happen to be correct I will meet whatever particular end is in store for me. But my faith is with Christianity. So I’m not worried about it.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Well it’s just that I find it odd that you tell us we have no excuse since we have access to a computer but won’t carry that idea forward with respect to yourself and other religions.[/quote]
I wasn’t aware that I was excusing myself with other religions. I make no excuses for my rejection of their faiths and beliefs. I do it consciously, of sound mind, and reasonably informed. I’m prepared to risk their hell (or whatever) in maintaining my own faith. And I don’t spend a second trying to needle their own faithful into providing me a backdoor to their version of paradise/heaven. Never comes up at all. I’ve never posted about it. Nor, have I ever lost sleep over it.
You dig?
@Thunderbolt:
This thread is titled “Can Atheists go to heaven?”. Every one of my posts in this thread is EXACTLY on that topic. Your failure to see that is beyond my control as is the rest of your post. How anybody responds is IN ITSELF utterly irrelevant to me. However, there are several members of this forum (six off the top of my head in the last 2 months) who have expressed just the opposite and have asked me for one reason or other for further resources because their interest has been piqued.
All of them actively post to this day. Some more than others. Your opinion vastly outnumbers theirs as I’m well aware. I expect to be disdained most of all by people who dismiss unmistakable biblical principle and yet claim the name of Christ as their own. Popularity is not my goal. Obedience is. For all your and others dismissals of me as aggravating asinine antique, I could literally make a 40+ hour week of sitting right here answering posts, PM,s and emails from members of T-Nation. You’re right, that doesn’t help my already aggressive ego, but at the same time your modernistic powder puff definition of “humility” is disastrously ill advised.
I don’t think you know what to do with the subject matter of the epistemology thread. I hasten to clarify that that is absolutely NO denigration by me of your manifestly superb cerebral powers and education which I have openly and unceasingly declared my highest respect for. I just don’t think you feel yourself especially equipped in that area. There is not a thing wrong with that if true.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
The christian heaven, if it did exist (which it more than likely does not), would be as Hitchens described it, as a “celestial North Korea”.
I’ll pass, thank you…[/quote]
Again. Banquets, hiking, and sex…not sure how that comes close to celestial North Korea.[/quote]
“Religious belief is a totalitarian belief. It is the wish to be a slave. It is the desire that there be an unalterable, unchallengeable, tyrannical authority who can convict you of thought crime while you are asleep, who can subject you - who must, indeed, subject you - to total surveillance around the clock every waking and sleeping minute of your life - I say, of your life - before you’re born and, even worse and where the real fun begins, after you’re dead. A celestial North Korea. Who wants this to be true? Who but a slave desires such a ghastly fate? I’ve been to North Korea. It has a dead man as its president, Kim Jong-Il is only head of the party and head of the army. He’s not head of the state. That office belongs to his deceased father, Kim Il-Sung. It’s a necrocracy, a thanatocracy. It’s one short of a trinity I might add. The son is the reincarnation of the father. It is the most revolting and utter and absolute and heartless tyranny the human species has ever evolved. But at least you can fucking die and leave North Korea!”
-Hitchens[/quote]
Yes, I agree with Hitchens with what he writes. I wouldn’t want to be in some place like he describes. But, thankfully you can’t logically redefine Heaven into something it’s not and then make outrageous claims, that is called a fallacy. I’m not even aware of anyone that believes or holds to this Heaven, except Hitchens himself. Strange when atheists act like fundamentalist.
Anyway, I think someone already showed that Hitchens presents a straw man. So, I’ll post a buddy’s article about the often quoted comment in philosophy classes around America.
[quote]Mr. Hitchens �¢?? may he rest in peace �¢?? was far too involved with Christianity to have ever become a Christian. If he had spent a little more time being an Atheist he might have considered the Body of Christ. But he couldn�¢??t leave the non-God alone. He spoke of Christianity more than Her priests. He engaged Her more than Her followers. He lived the life of a pious Christian with several thousand misunderstandings of Christianity. Forever seeing Her through a microscope of misconception, Hitchens never saw Her at all.
And so I come to his misunderstanding of Heaven. For grump-machine-Christopher, Paradise is a �¢??celestial North Korea�¢?? where man is doomed by God to repeat the same actions of praise, worship, and love, forever. And ever. And ever. Amen. He decries Heaven as dreary, monotonous, awful, and well �¢?? he�¢??s absolutely correct. That�¢??s right folks, I�¢??m becoming an atheist.
But he got this right: If Heaven is merely an eternal choir, it may as well be a Hell. Any action infinitely repeated would be intolerable. I swear, if I get handed a harp and am told to �¢??start playing, never stop,�¢?? I�¢??m pulling a Paradise Lost, Book 6.
Thankfully, it�¢??s a ridiculous understanding of Heaven. (I�¢??m surprised Hitchens never stopped to realize that the only people agreeing with his interpretation were literalist Christians.) He should have paid less attention to bad theology and more attention to having sex.
A sex life is monotonous. It is repetitive. It is ritualistic. It is the carrying on of certain motions that lead to certain results, again and again, forever and ever, till death do you apart, or some other tragedy occurs. It is a routine (more and more so as the children grow up, I imagine. (I know a girl who at 20 just figured out what her parents daily nap-time was all about. (Sorry if I just scarred any one for the rest of their lives. (Please still read my blog.)))) But you�¢??d be slapped �¢?? and rightly so �¢?? if assumed that all this monotony means that the act is boring.
Sexual union in its fullness �¢?? and unfortunately I can only go by literature here �¢?? is not a limited thing, but an experience of infinity. No couple views sex as a finalized experience (it�¢??s this awesome and no more), but as an attempt at infinite joy. Thus everyone, atheist or otherwise, naturally gasps things like �¢??more,�¢?? �¢??God,�¢?? and other such infinities during the act. Ritual unveils the infinite.
Think about it: If you gaze on the face of your lover again and again, you dive into her infinite worth. No one would say, �¢??Alright, I�¢??ve got it! You�¢??re a 9! No more and no less!�¢?? No, the cliche �¢??words cannot express how beautiful you are�¢?? is simply a statement of fact: Who can express the infinite? So your gaze becomes a ritual, you gaze again and again.
Or returning again and again to a truly beautiful piece of music �¢?? again you dive. For who among you can imagine saying, �¢??I�¢??ve discovered all Mozart�¢??s Requiem has to offer!�¢??? No, it�¢??s precisely in feeling we could never discover everything a piece has to offer that we feel fulfilled. Ritual �¢?? the again and again �¢?? unveils the infinite.
So it is with sex. You live a natural, ritualistic sex life �¢?? you grow ever deeper in the infinities love, communion and joy. It is not an Erotic North Korea, this repetition. It is the very method by which we are fulfilled.
And in a beautiful binding of infinities, all these experiences make us groan. What is the human response to the terrible beauty of the soprano�¢??s highest note in Miserere Mei Deus? A groan. What is the natural end of gazing at Michaelangelo�¢??s Pieta? A groan, audible or otherwise. And what is the natural response to the fact of sex? A groan. Infinity stings us sweetly. It is a paradox �¢?? we cannot grasp it, yet we must. We cannot fully contain the Evermore, but we will try. We cannot comprehend the Beauty of our lovers, but we will try. We are simultaneously satisfied and dissatisfied �¢?? and so we groan in sweet frustration at the convergence of the twain, at the crashing of opposites that creates a thing entirely new.
And is that not the very face of sex? Both dissatisfaction and satisfaction? Pleasure and pain? At the risk of losing a few readers: Why is it that the words most associated with the act of sex are words of extreme dissatisfaction �¢?? f**k �¢?? and in the same breath those of ultimate fulfillment �¢?? God? It�¢??s not as if these words are entirely intentional (I hope.) They are reactions to the act. I hold it is because sex is an awesome sacramentalizing of the fact that we are not made for comfort. We are not made for an ending world. No, we are made for things we can never grasp, for love unimaginable. We are made for infinity. The things we desire the most are the things that make us groan.
This is my response to Christopher Hitchens: If the tastes of infinity available to us on earth �¢?? art, love, sex, and all the rest �¢?? are best unveiled through ritual and repetition, I can only conclude that the Ultimate Infinity we call Heaven will be unveiled and enjoyed through an Ultimate Ritual �¢?? and that we will pant for it. The best part being that I already do �¢?? it is called the Holy Mass, and I hope to God you are experiencing it right now.[/quote][/quote]
Is religious belief not the wish to be a slave? Is the christian heaven not the eternal worship of god?
[/quote]
Yes, however that doesn’t translate to celestial NK. IN becoming a slave of Christ, you share in his Divine Nature (since we’re his Brother). The old saying goes, Jesus became man so that we may become gods.
[quote]groo wrote:
q[/quote]
Fatima.
Eucharist Miracles.
[quote]Regular Gonzalez wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
According to Cardinal George Pell the answer is yes.
Go to 41:30[/quote]
I watched the whole debate last night on TV. Dawkins wasn’t as sharp as I expected, but some of the Cardinals comments were ridiculously retarded. It was pretty painful to watch.
For those that believe the answer to the above question is no, what are your thoughts on the following scenarios:
Person A - Born in an isolated part of Africa. Christian missionaries preach to him. Having no access to information to the contrary, he accepts christianity to be the truth.
Person B - Born in an isolated part of Africa. Muslim missionaries preach to him. Having no access to information to the contrary, he accepts Islam to be the truth.
Person C - Born in an isolated part of Africa. He grows up living in an isolated tribe & during his life is never exposed to the teachings of any modern religion. He doesn’t accept christ as he has never even heard of Jesus.
Where will each of the three people end up after death?
It seems a tad unfair if person A goes to heaven, while persons B&C are tortured for eternity. Based on where they were born & the environment they were exposed to, it was almost inevitable where they would end up.
[/quote]
All three have the potential to go to Heaven: predestination & invincible ignorance come into play. So, it matters if they have efficient grace.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Dt546 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Dt546 wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Dt546 wrote:
Do you have any evidence to back this, or is it purely speculation?[/quote]
Are you an atheist?
[/quote]
I dont believe me beliefs are important to the conversation. What is accepted as evidence shouldnt change based upon religious background, but unfortunately…
I was simply inquiring on if she could offer a logical explanation on why she thought human beings would still be barbaric, without religion.[/quote]
I didn’t know Orion (I always said it O’Ryan) was a girl! Since, when?[/quote]
Umm what? Since when what?
[/quote]
I believe orion is a dude (of course I could have gotten mixed signals with his flirting), you said she…I assume you were referencing orion (pronounced o’ryan; correct me if I am wrong). [/quote]
What flirting?
Lol----
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
The answer to all three is in the quotes from Jesus I posted to Sparky above. True Christian salvation from sin and death into which ALL are born is NOT the intellectual acquiescence to a data set of propositions among competing options. It is the supernatural resurrection from death in sin to life in Christ promised to every man “who beholds the Son and believes in Him [so that they] have eternal life, and [He Himself] will raise [them] up on the last day”.
That can include all or none of the specimens from all or none of the scenarios you cite. God alone has that knowledge and God alone determines justice. He will not be knocking on your door or mine inquiring about what we think is fair or not. Romans 10:9-17 (esv) [quote]<<< 9-because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10-For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
11-For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12-For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13-For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14-How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15-And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16-But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?”
17-So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. >>>[/quote]There IS some contextual relevance here, but the message stands. I will not be the one to say that there will be zero people in heaven who have never had the gospel preached to them, but they are the infinitesimally microscopic minority if they exist. Paul makes it plain here. One must HEAR, confess with their mouth and believe in their HEART that Jesus is Lord and is raised from the dead on their behalf.
Once again, my Catholic friends will be along to help God out and make this seem not nearly as “bad” to you.[/quote]
No, not necessarily. We just believe that even with the weakness of humans that when God does something he’s not one to fail, so given that God can give a man in a cave, that will never hear about Jesus from another man’s lips, in the middle of the jungle Efficacious Grace, that man will somehow or another end up in Heaven (though that man still has free will).
However, Protestants over exaggerate Catholics stance on Invincible Ignorance that a whole bunch of people will end up in Heaven who have never heard the Gospel. Not true, nor is it false…we don’t know. What we know is that when a man receives Efficacious Grace, he goes to Heaven. A man is given Efficacious Grace out of the great mercy of God. However, with Efficacious Grace, he’s still saved through the Church. So that dogma is not void because of Efficacious Grace.
Back to Invincible Ignorance. That is not what we’re saying, we’re saying that there is a possibility and that we can’t know if a particular someone goes to Hell. Protestants want us to condemn people, we can’t first off, second we’re told not to by Jesus (judge not lest ye be judged).
Anyway, sounds like Tirib has given into the doctrine of Invincible Ignorance, with your giving in when you say, “I will not be the one to say that there will be zero people in heaven who have never had the gospel preached to them, but they are the infinitesimally microscopic minority if they exist.” He has forever given me a quote to show that he believes in II.
Regards,
BC