Bushworld

[quote]Vegita wrote:

As My post here clearly implies I view both of us as inexperienced kids with a lot to learn. way to leave out that last sentance.

[/quote]

I didn’t leave it out to be sneaky…I guess I didn’t get that implication – sorry.

The point is still that you view us as “inexperienced kids” in virtue purely of our ages – well, at what age do we “graduate” and become able to share an opinion as an intelligent being?

Also, in some sense, don’t we all – no matter the age – have a lot more to learn?

Unless your GWB who makes no mistakes, or ZEB who always knows best, we’ve all always got more to learn.

[quote]JeffR wrote:
Bets are placed to infuse some emotion into an event.[/quote]
I don’t think emotion is anything that we’re short on in this forum!

[quote]
When RSU’s candidate was “doing well” he was having a ball. He was pointing out polls that were favorable to Kerry.[/quote]
You imply that I pointed out many polls favoring Kerry – show them, please, as I don’t believe I ever have simply b/c I don’t follow too many polls!

My confidence in Kerry’s ability to win the election means nothing about me or my opinions about who would be a better president. And, I can assure you, my confidence has nothing to do with what the likes of you and ZEB have said on the forums!

That’s because the election was a crock.

Hey Elk, thanks for sharing your observations of the silly debate ZEB had engaged me in. I appreciate your vocalizing how ridiculous it was.

Unless your GWB who makes no mistakes, or ZEB who always knows best, we’ve all always got more to learn.[/quote]

I clearly stated on the election thread that none of us has captured the market on truth and we ultimately “learn from each other”. First the kid begs for mercy “I just want Zeb to stop challenging me.” When he gets his wish he now wants to carry it on. (shaking head and laughing) just like a kid. So be it!

I was interested to hear that Dan Rather and Donald Rumsfeld co-own some ranch property out west. That would indicate to me that he is not the partisan hack that some of you paint him out to be.

I’d say he’s the unfortunate victim of a political prank. If a reporter is presented with a story, he would be irresponsible to not run it. The White House was presented with the documents and didn’t raise a peep, indicating that they were factually correct. As a matter of fact, there is no proof whatsoever to show that George Bush earned enough points for an honorable discharge.

As far as the media accused of being “liberal” by the right wing, this is a tactic called “working the refs” that coaches such as Bobby Knight elevated to a science. Every time a call doesn’t go your way, you raise holy hell. Done correctly, eventually you can intimidate the refs from making legitimate calls against your team. And in our political system, the founding fathers expected the press (“The Fourth Estate”) to act as referees in the public’s interest, and challenge politicians on their bullshit. It’s supposed to be one of our ‘checks and balances’. When the press just parrots the administration’s press release, you wind up with publications like Pravda.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
“I just want Zeb to stop challenging me.” [/quote]

Show me where I said this, since you’ve quoted me.

(note to Mods: is there any such thing as “forum plagiarism,” and can I press charges after a certain number of instances?!)

[quote]Lumpy wrote:
I was interested to hear that Dan Rather and Donald Rumsfeld co-own some ranch property out west. That would indicate to me that he is not the partisan hack that some of you paint him out to be.

[/quote]

This true? Do you have a source?

Good analogy to the “working the refs” technique. It’s true, I think the feeling is: if you say it enough it’ll be true.

[quote]Lumpy wrote:
I was interested to hear that Dan Rather and Donald Rumsfeld co-own some ranch property out west. That would indicate to me that he is not the partisan hack that some of you paint him out to be.
[/quote]

RSU:
Below is the source of that info Lumpy mentioned. I was going to post it earlier but never got the chance.

Note: CBS bumped the story of the FORGED NIGER documents (that influenced the decision to go to war) that they had been working on and investigating for 6 months in favor of the “Bush/Guard” story that turned out to be based on forged documents and was not fully investigated. Just another goddamn coincedence I guess.

THE U.S. “MAY NEED A BIGGER ARMY,” DONALD RUMSFELD TELLS TIME
Sunday, Dec. 21, 2003

New York - “We may need a bigger army,” Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld tells TIME in this week’s Person of the Year double issue (on newsstands for two weeks beginning Monday, Dec. 22). Rumsfeld has been under pressure from Congress to expand the military by at least two divisions, or 20,000 troops, TIME Washington Bureau Chief Michael Duffy and Pentagon Correspondent Mark Thompson report. The Secretary resisted that pressure over the summer and fall, but in his conversation with TIME, he said he was studying it more closely now, opening the door to a deal.

Widely Believed that Wolfowitz May Leave Administration Some Time Next Year: In a companion story on Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, Thompson reports that the Rummy and Wolfie Show may soon go off the air. It is widely believed in national-security circles that Wolfowitz may leave the Administration some time in 2004. He has become too controversial for Bush to promote to Defense Secretary; Wolfowitz believed that U.S. troops in Iraq would be greeted with rose petals. He remains unbowed about the postwar effort. “I’d like to know among those people who say we should have had better plans, just which plan they had in mind that would have prevented the murderers and torturers that raped and abused that country for 35 years from continuing to fight this destructive war until they’re defeated. The bottom line is,” he says, “these are tough, ugly bastards.”

Would Never Admit He Made a Mistake: Rumsfeld would never admit that he made a mistake, says an aide, who adds, "That’s a good thing when selling a policy or a war. But if the choice turns out to be wrong, he probably won’t acknowledge it until it’s turned into a disaster."

Co-Owns New Mexico Ranch with Dan Rather, among others: You would think, especially after Saddam’s capture, that Rumsfeld could pack it in, go out on top and settle down in that ranch in Taos, N.M., that he co-owns with, among others, Dan Rather, TIME reports. Boyhood chum Ned Jannotta, who ran his first campaign for Congress in 1962, notes that Rumsfeld never has cared about staying anywhere very long. “He doesn’t look for security in his life,” says Jannotta. “It gives him great freedom to do and try and risk and fail. He’s prepared to go head to head winner take all, no second-place money and still fail. That runs through his life.”

http://www.time.com/time/press_releases/article/0,8599,565993,00.html

Hey RSU I know where you stated it! If you want to know where you stated it I suggest that you go back over your numerous hateful, posts and find it kid!

RSU, I have to tell you kid your lastest post reads something like this: “Mommy come help me…waaaaa…sniff…sniff.”

Now stop your crying you are getting your keyboard all wet!

(Note to other T-Men, a few posts ago I dropped my challenge to RSU. I attempted to reach out with the olive branch. However, kids being who they are…)

Zeb, why don’t you try simply acting like an adult instead of trying to point out RSU’s failings with every post.

The rest of out here are perfectly able to decide for ourselves how we feel about RSU’s posts without your helpful interpretation, pointers and explanations into his motives and methods.

Up your medication or something.

Anyhow, all your protestations make me think RSU is really getting to you… you must almost be ready to convert or somethng! :wink:

vroom:

Why don’t you point out RSU’s immature inconsistanies? Oh that’s right you are fellow left wingers. Sorry, forgot for a second.

Anyway, I am now going to run through the woods of Canada singing the Canadian national anthem and screaming for higher taxes and more government interference in my life. I am then going to find a message board and spread left wing propaganda…No wait…that would be you that does that…never mind. :slight_smile:

lol, actually Zeb, you might not believe it but I abhor taxation and want a small and efficient government… what is this world coming to?

vroom:

Then for heaven sakes relocate to America, become a citizen and vote for the most conservative candidate in every race! You can certainly do the same in Canada, I only imagine you would have more of an uphill fight.

ZEB, all I’m saying is that if you’re going to quote something, it better be something I actually said. Putting quote marks around a sentence doesn’t mean I said it.

What you do could be considered lying, and I’m only asking you to please stop it.

If you’d like to refer to things I say and call them quotes, then actually quote them. Thanks.

[quote]Right Side Up wrote:
ZEB, all I’m saying is that if you’re going to quote something, it better be something I actually said. Putting quote marks around a sentence doesn’t mean I said it.

What you do could be considered lying, and I’m only asking you to please stop it.

If you’d like to refer to things I say and call them quotes, then actually quote them. Thanks.[/quote]

RSU:

I was actually quoting your words, seriously! You and I have written many posts back and forth and I can see why it is difficult for you to remember everything that you stated. I know I can’t remember every word, or which thread it was written on.

If you don’t like the quote, I don’t have to use it again…no problem.


Bushworld:

THE ROVING EYE
Cluster bombs liberate Iraqi children
By Pepe Escobar

AMMAN - The horror. The horror. And unlike Apocalypse Now, there are real, not fictional images to prove it. But they won’t be seen in Western homes. The new heart of darkness has emerged in the turbulent history of Mesopotamia via the Hilla massacre. After uninterrupted, furious American bombing on Monday night and Tuesday morning, as of Wednesday night there were at least 61 dead Iraqi civilians and more than 450 seriously injured in the region of Hilla, 80 kilometers south of Baghdad. Most are children: 60 percent of Iraq’s population of roughly 24 million are children.

Roland Huguenin-Benjamin, a spokesman for the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) in Iraq, describes what happened in Hilla as “a horror, dozens of severed bodies and scattered limbs”. Initially, Murtada Abbas, the director of Hilla hospital, was questioned about the bombing only by Iraqi journalists - and only Arab cameramen working for Reuters and Associated Press were allowed on site. What they filmed is horror itself - the first images shot by Western news agencies of what is also happening on the Iraqi frontlines: babies cut in half, amputated limbs, kids with their faces a web of deep cuts caused by American shellfire and cluster bombs. Nobody in the West will ever see these images because they were censored by editors in Baghdad: only a “soft” version made it to worldwide TV distribution.

According to the Arab cameramen, two trucks full of bodies - mostly children, and women in flowered dresses - were parked outside the Hilla hospital. Dr Nazem el-Adali, trained in Scotland, said almost all the dead and wounded were victims of cluster bombs dropped in the Hilla region and in the neighboring village of Mazarak. Abbas initially said that there were 33 dead and 310 wounded. Then the ICRC went on site with a team of four, and they said that there were “dozens of dead and 450 wounded”. Contacted by satphone on Thursday, Huguenin-Benjamin confirmed there were at least 460 wounded, being treated in an ill-equipped 280-bed hospital.

Journalists taken to Hilla from Baghdad on an official tour on Wednesday talked of at least 61 dead. The Independent’s Robert Fisk described the mortuary as “a butcher’s shop of chopped-up corpses”. The ICRC is adamant: all victims are “farmers, women and children”. And Dr Hussein Ghazay, also from Hilla hospital, confirmed that “all the injuries were either from cluster bombing or from bomblets that exploded afterwards when people stepped on them or children picked them up by mistake”.

Iraqi journalists on site and later an Agence France Presse (AFP) photographer say that they have seen debris equipped with small parachutes characteristic of cluster bombs - which release up to 200 bomblets. Mohamed al-Sahaf, the Iraqi Information Minister, has not volunteered details yet on the Hilla massacre. US Central Command in Qatar only admits it has used “six cluster bombs in the center of Iraq” - and against a tank column: these would be the CBU 105, the so-called “intelligent” cluster bombs which compensate for wind. The Pentagon line remains that there are “no indications” that the US dropped cluster bombs in the Hilla region.

Widely used in Afghanistan, cluster bombs are vehemently denounced by human rights organizations: they compare their deadly effects to anti-personnel mines, which are outlawed by the Ottawa Convention (not signed, incidentally, by either the US or Iraq). Cluster bombs are far from being smart. Most of its bomblets hit the ground without exploding. The small yellow cylinders remain deadly weapons threatening civilians - especially children. Human Rights Watch, in vain, has tried to persuade the Pentagon not to use cluster bombs, stressing that “Iraqi civilians will pay the price with their lives”. This is not the first incident of mass civilian deaths. The Independent newspaper of London claims that it has conclusively proved that an American missile was responsible for the devastation at the Shu’ale market in Baghdad last Friday, with at least 62 civilians confirmed dead. The missile - either a high speed anti-radiation missile (Harm) or a Paveway laser-guided bomb - is manufactured by Raytheon in Texas. Raytheon is the world’s largest manufacturer of so-called “smart” weapons - including Patriots and Tomahawks.

A piece of fuselage shown by a Shu’ale resident to the Independent’s Robert Fisk reads the number 30003-704ASB7492, followed by a second code, MFR 96214 09. An investigation by the Independent determined that “the reference MFR 96214 was the identification or ‘cage’ number of a Raytheon plant in the city of McKinney, Texas. The 30003 reference refers to the Naval Air Systems Command, the procurement agency responsible for furnishing the US Navy’s air force with its weaponry.” Many defense analysts have agreed that what happened at the Shu’ale market was almost certainly due to a Harm - which carries a warhead designed to explode into thousands of aluminum fragments. The Bush administration, Downing Street and the US Central Command continue to blame the civilian massacre in Baghdad on misfired Iraqi missiles.

Al-Mustansariya University in Baghdad - the oldest in the world - has been bombed. A Red Crescent maternity hospital has been bombed. In al-Janabiy, in the southeast of Baghdad, Patrick Baz, a veteran AFP photographer who stared horror in the face in Beirut in the 1980s, stumbled into a farm pulverized by missiles with at least 20 dead inside, including 11 children.

Iraq may not be totally united behind the renewed call of the Saddam Hussein regime, which is a complex mix of Arab nationalism and jihad invoked to rally every citizen to a war of liberation. But the terrible images of the civilian massacre in Shu’ale and the civilian massacre in Hilla, coupled with the Pentagon’s denials, have turned the Iraqi nationalist struggle into a volcano. Iraqi exiles in Jordan confirm that people who wouldn’t dream of picking up a Kalashnikov to defend Saddam are now committed to defend their families, their houses, their cities and their homeland. Anglo-American soldiers may barely disguise their perplexity, but the fact on the ground is they are now fighting the very people they were supposed to “liberate”.

Most, if not all, images of death from above raining over Iraqi civilians are being shown non-stop on al-Jazeera, Abu-Dhabi TV, al-Arabiya or the Lebanese Broadcasting Corporation. The anger over the Arab world must surely be growing. Even “moderate” regimes are being touched. The semi-official al-Ahram, Egypt’s premier newspaper, sums it up in an editorial, “The ‘clean war’ has become the dirtiest of wars, the bloodiest, the most destructive. Smart weapons have become deliberately stupid, blindly killing people in markets and popular neighborhoods.” Jordan’s King Abdullah was forced to publicly denounce what he termed the “invasion of Iraq” and vigorously register his “pain and sorrow” with the “murder of women and children … as we see on our television screens the growing number of martyrs among innocent Iraqi civilians. As a father, I feel the pain of every Iraqi family, of every child, and every father.”

(?2003 Asia Times Online Co, Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact content@atimes.com for information on our sales and syndication policies.)

RoadWarrior,

This author was seriously mistaken. The Iraqi children were injured by all of the flying rose petals being thrown, and the women were no doubt injured by their own over exuberance while dancing in the streets. Just ask Dick 'n Don, they’ll set you straight.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
RSU:

I was actually quoting your words, seriously! You and I have written many posts back and forth and I can see why it is difficult for you to remember everything that you stated. I know I can’t remember every word, or which thread it was written on.

If you don’t like the quote, I don’t have to use it again…no problem.

[/quote]
It’s not that I don’t like it, it’s that I didn’t say it.

You have done this before and it is lying. You can’t say “quote” me on something I didn’t say. A quote is not what you inferred, or what I said “in so many words,” – it’s what I actually said. And I never backed down from your challenge in the manner you quoted.

The search tool is useful, and I suggest you use it to find what someone actually said if you’re going to quote them.

Thanks again.

RSU:

I quoted you exactly!

Obviously, you have not found it yet. However, it’s there.

ZEB,
I’ve been reading the forums for a while, and I have to say, I dont understand you. You constantly refer to RSU as a “kid” (obviously in a negative way), and when asked about it, you justify it by saying that he acts like a child by making personal attacks. Do you realize that while saying this YOU are making a personal attack? I don’t understand how you can possibly think this is reasonable. Your posts are almost always personal attacks on RSU. Please try to justify this.

Since I come from an area where there are virtually no Bush supporters, I would really like to ask you a question. This is something that seems so simple to me, yet always turns into something complicated, so I’d really like a straight answer…How can you justify the Bush administration attacking Kerry’s military record when Bush did not even go. It is an undisputable fact that many people in his administration got (several) defferments. How the hell can they make it seem like Kerry is the bad guy in this situation…HE WENT AND THEY DID NOT! This is American politics at its worst, it makes me sick.

Julian: Just give it up, bro. Zeb is one of the more vocal T-nation “crips”. He and his gang fire verbal AK-47’s at the “bloods” like RSU, and the bloods fire back just the same. I guarantee that Zeb has at least one blue do-rag and some gold chains somewhere in his house… :slight_smile:

Anyway, I wonder what y’all have to say about the story that was posted concerning Iraqi civilians being killed by our supposedly “smart” bombs. Was that sloppy, or what? How are our weapons landing in busy marketplaces? The whole point of using smart laser-guided or GPS guidance technology is to prevent a waste of ordinance on non-military targets. I’m really hoping that the story is based on propaganda, bait and switch tactics, or just plain BS, because that is a friggin’ shame. Those missiles should be bitch-slapping weapons bunkers or something.