They didn’t have enough buses for over 2,000 people. Many of the roads were closed. The order to evacuate wasn’t given until Sunday because of the altering behaviour of the hurricane and its projected path. That means about 24 hours to respond was all they had. Not only that, but rescuers are just now getting people to accept some of the assistance. Some of those people are POOR. [/quote]
2000 school buses sat parked until they were flooded. Did the mayor or gov. need for Bush to suggest that they put those to use? [quote]
Wait, I don’t know if everyone understands that concept. POOR means you don’t have money. It means that many of these people were probably scared to even be shipped anywhere else because they had no way to support themselves.
There was one story given by one of the national guard that described some of the older people originally turning down helicopter rides out because they thought they had to pay to get on and they didn’t have money. That mentality is what many are dealing with now.
How do you convince people to leave in less than 24 hours who have no money to support themselves at all? This was bigger than a “local Problem” from the very start. There is no way on earth New Orleans could have supported, fed and sheltered thousands of people on their own. It is an impossibility and I am amazed at how many don’t seem to understand the scope of this.[/quote]
Where were they going to go with less than 24 hours and no time to CONVINCE people to leave?
I seriously think you are overlooking a mental component here. If these people hadn’t already packed and been convinced that wherever they went, food would be provided along with shelter, why would they all leave? No money…remember?
Further, where were they going to go?
How were they going to make it past closed roads?
24 Hours. Not days…not weeks…just 24 hours.
I would do exactly like they did. I would tell those who stayed to run for the Superdome and pray for them.
Taking care of over 2,000 people for months is not a local task. It is impossible. This was a national emergency the moment a Cat 5 hurricane hit the gulf headed for New Orleans.
The news is stating that they soon expect nearly every state in North America to house some of the refugees. That means this was bigger than NO from the moment the winds picked up.
More silliness. Rather than be willing to look for ways to improve things, you’d rather bitch at me for no reason simply because I live in Canada… which makes me an easier target.
Maybe I should see if I can get my donation back since it obviously isn’t appreciated.
Unlike some people around here, I’m somewhat cognizant of the scope of the problem, the difficulty in getting 100% compliance when trying to evacuate a city, and the terrible conditions faced by a large number of people when it didn’t have to be that bad.
Excuse me for caring. It’s too bad that so many people are quick to blame the victims. It’s an utter disgrace. I can barely comprehend the lack of compassion shown around here at a time like this.
I’m afraid I did. Apparently you are sadly without your crayons…
Where were they going to go with less than 24 hours and no time to CONVINCE people to leave?
I seriously think you are overlooking a mental component here. If these people hadn’t already packed and been convinced that wherever they went, food would be provided along with shelter, why would they all leave? No money…remember?
Further, where were they going to go?
How were they going to make it past closed roads?
24 Hours. Not days…not weeks…just 24 hours.
I would do exactly like they did. I would tell those who stayed to run for the Superdome and pray for them.
Taking care of over 2,000 people for months is not a local task. It is impossible. This was a national emergency the moment a Cat 5 hurricane hit the gulf headed for New Orleans.
The news is stating that they soon expect nearly every state in North America to house some of the refugees. That means this was bigger than NO from the moment the winds picked up.[/quote]
So,… Bush could have done ALL this, and should be impeached because he didn’t.
Although Freemark takes a different position than I do in this debate, this was actually a good post!
However, two points I’d like to make:
The statement “Bush responded in 5 days” is incorrect. That means it is untrue. Fiction. Erroneus. False. But like Marx said a long time ago, “If you repeat a lie enough times, people will eventually believe it.”
How much of San Francisco was submerged?
Again, this was a good post. It was devoid of some of the childish vitriol that rears its ugly head on internet forums.
[/quote]
Pushharder
Thanks for your comments. As for the content I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say Bush did not respond for 3 days (Wed Aug 31). As for the idea of that no help could reach New Orleans because it was submergedis untrue. The Convention Center was accessible by unsubmerged, unbroken highway. Reporters and others were able to drive in and out. As a student posing as a reporter was able to do?
“Anyone who knows that area, if you had a bus, it would take you no more than 20 minutes to drive in with a bus and get these people out,” Buder said. “They sat there for four or five days with no food, no water, babies getting raped in the bathrooms, there were murders, nobody was doing anything for these people. And we just drove right in, really disgraceful. I don’t want to get too fired up with the rhetoric, but some blame needs to be placed somewhere.” http://www.herald-sun.com/durham/4-643298.html
I hope you understand that is partially why so many people are so angry. Not only did FEMA not help they actually prevented other relief agencies from helping. I do not think Bush ordered FEMA to turn away the truckloads of water but that did happen and Homeland Security/FEMA is directly responsible to Bush. If Bush had taken an active leadership role immediately many lives would have been saved and much suffering alleviated.
I’m not sure many people are actually trying to suggest impeachment…
However, when do you think that the president is actually going to share some responsibility for something?
According to people around here, the answer to that is never. If he’s never responsible, I don’t see why he’s been given any power to make decisions or initiate actions.
You say that the mayor couldn’t use the buses to give effect to his mandatory evacuation order because ‘roads were closed’.
Why were they closed and who closed them?
The buses were ready and the protocol was to use them to evacuate people. The mayor knows full well that there are plenty of POOR (emphasis yours) people in NO - that’s his job and his responsibility.
Again, why were roads closed prior to the hurrican hitting? And who made that decision?
And don’t leap to the conclusion that I am somehow letting the feds off the hook merely because I am focusing on local problems.
But, if a mayor is going to give a mandatory evacuation order - which is rare and is a very serious command - why did he not use the resources he had to actually give effect to the order?
This is a problem, regardless of what the feds did or did not do.
If you want to challenge my political opinions, go right ahead.
However, the fact that I think things could have been done better, and I point out things that went wrong, in no way suggests anything about my mindset.
Americans are pointing out the same things, and nobody calls them out as hating the states or anything stupid like that. Nor does anybody accuse them of thinking they are braniacs. You are not challenging anything related to my political opinions with your attacks.
So, if you have issues with the points I have raised, then have at them. Since you don’t seem to be able to, and you choose to attack me personally, you have no legs to stand on.
Finally, if you didn’t get the jist of my statement, which was about the lack of compassion in these parts, I guess you might think I’d consider wanting my donation back.
Trying to then attack me on that is again just plain idiocy – anyone can see I was trying to make a point.
The more you post the worse you look… don’t let me stop you.
To emphasize something Boston posted from the BBC that I don’t want overlooked:
[quote]The mayor said people going to the Superdome, a sports venue named as an alternative destination for those unable to leave, should bring supplies for several days. He also said police could commandeer any vehicle for the evacuation.
But how much support was there at the Superdome? And how much city transport was actually used? There is a photo showing city school buses still lined up, in waterlogged parking lots, after the hurricane.
Update: a reader has pointed out that there are detailed plans for Louisiana and the City of New Orleans for an evacuation and these make it clear that buses should be used to transport those without cars. See links.[/quote]
Also, the mayor called for evacuation less than 24 hours before the hurricane hit. Prior to that order:
[quote]The Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco said at the same news conference that President Bush had called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation.
The night before, National Hurricane Director Max Mayfield had called Mayor Nagin to tell him that an evacuation was needed. Why were these calls necessary?[/quote]
Bottom line: before reaching the question of how the feds screwed up - and I willing to say they did as I learn more - the mayor set up the NO situation for failure.
Vroom,your contributions are needed along with euro etc…the people looking in from the outside can see the problems better than alot of these close minded self centered mericans.I guess the term Ugly American was coined from to many of these tunnel vision pompous conservatives traveling abroad.I have many supposed conservatives in my family ,and they would try to cheat you out of your last dime.They seem to hide from reality,and think if they belong to their little club it makes them better than others.Their only fooling themselves.Lets see,from what foreign news agencies say it appears the only people on our planet that care for georgie boy our the conservatives in our country. Maybe someday they’ll put 2&2 together.
I’m not sure many people are actually trying to suggest impeachment…[/quote]
JustTheFacts has, & I got the impression ProfX agreed with him. [quote]
However, when do you think that the president is actually going to share some responsibility for something?
According to people around here, the answer to that is never. If he’s never responsible, I don’t see why he’s been given any power to make decisions or initiate actions.[/quote]
Yes, he is ultimatly for FEMA. Who, IMO, is doing a respectable (not great) job cleaning up the mess caused by local incompetence
I notice that Reddog and some others keep trying to change the subject. The subject is “after the levees broke did Bush bear any of the responsibility for the abysmal response of Federal government”? The simple answer is YES HE DOES.
Responsibility begins at the top and shit rolls down hill. If he had lit a fire under some asses instead of eating cake and strumming a guitar (amazing how much a guitar looks like a large fiddle) many lives would have been saved and much suffering would have been alleviated. Bush is the Commander-in-Chief. If any agency under his control fails he fails and there can be no doubt FEMA failed. As with many other situations it is not the initial failure that caused the anger at Bush. It is because he failed to “rip off heads and shit down necks” when the failures continued. Such a lackadaisical response to the largest natural disaster in our nations history by our C-I-C is unfathomable.
[quote]freemark wrote:
BostonBarrister, Rainjack, Zap Branigan, reddog6376 don’t think much of Bush. Their posts here indicate that they believe he is useless since if someone is incapable of helping he should not be blamed if he does not help. According to them the President is incapable of being of service in the case of a National emergency. We should not count on President Bush to lead us in a case of such obvious importance to national security and welfare. We should only rely on local responses. As a matter of fact now would be a good time for the President to make some overseas trips. He can comeback once we get the country cleaned up a bit. Go ahead and take a vacation Mr. President. We will call when we need someone to announce “mission accomplished”.[/quote]
Because I think the city government shot itself in the foot when it failed to implemement the evacuation problem, that means I don’t think much of Bush?
I don’t think Bush can fly like Superman and pluck thousands of people off rooftops. Is that what you mean?
Prof X,
You don’t remember Hurricane Dennis very well, do you? Actually there isn’t much to remember. The hurricane itself didn’t really do any damage. However, over a half million people had to evacuate with the same type of warning people had with Katrina. (Also people started evacuating Friday in Mobile, AL. I espect the same thing happened in NOLA) Hurricanes come and go and the same thing happens every time. They really are hit and miss. Many of the people who stay do so of their own accord and are now sitting on their roofs. These people are certifiable idiots. Hell the people who stayed here during Dennis are morons. The outcome doesn’t matter, defying a mandatory evacuation does.
Now to the problem of the homeless. The city should’ve gotten those buses and either evac. the city or sent police to move more people into the Superdome. Dealing with the homeless/poor is a difficult problem and would happen in just about any city. Shit happens.
You talk about roads closing? Road don’t close prior to a hurricane. The usually one way every interstate out of a city for a couple hundred miles when they are trying to evac people. Bridges usually close when wind speeds go over tropical storm strength.
And now for the response for disater relief. Lets say this storm is moving at 20 mph. You need to be safely (relatively) out of the way of this storm, so you stay 140 miles away (still 50-60 mph winds, heavy rain etc.) So waiting for the storm to pass, however, the storm now needs a few more hours to pass over you. Trees covering major roadways need to be moved. The supply areas need to be set up etc. etc. etc. Here it was suprising to see anything set up on Tues. and we didn’t have the worst of it.
Some things have to be done before food and water can be handed out. These things take time. Some slow asses up I-59 clearing trees in the Pine Belt can slow the whole relief effort down by hours.
[quote]Wreckless wrote:
…
Blame the people that could have left but didn’t.
But what the poor people, that couldn’t leave. The elderly in wheelchairs, are on oxygen. Or the nurses taking care of them. But I forgot, Bush doesn’t care about those.
…
[/quote]
The city had a plan to evacuate those people but the mayor didn’t implement it.
I also saw the mayor on TV last night claiming that the CIA was going to kill him for speaking out against Bush.