I hate to play the devil’s advocate, but didn’t the people down south know a bad hurricane was coming? Shouldn’t they of evacuated before it came? I know some people like to stay around and act tough, but, I’d rather be alive than dead.
[quote]freemark wrote:
Wow. I cannot believe how many people are trying to blame the mayor of NOLA for things only the federal govt has the resources to do.[/quote]
How many cities of 500,000 people do you think there are in America? What makes more sense, that the feds have plans for worst case senarios for each and every one of them, or that local governments prepare for the likely problems they will face?
Probably. Does that excuse the mayor from not getting as many as possible out? Why were all of those school busses flooded?
You are math retarded. 3000 busses x at least 60 persons per bus equals 180,000 people. Problem solved. Do you really think each bus in an emergency situation can only carry 10 people? 3000 times 10= 30,000. Moron.
Moron, Texas is not full. We have coliseums being packed, apartment complexes being packed, churches being packed, college campuses being packed. Of course all of this is happening a week too late because the inept LOCAL GOVERNMENT didn’t get the people out before the disaster struck.
Any city in America, dumbass. If it turned out that New Orleans wasn’t flooded, the refugees would have been gone within a week.
No. Anyone who thinks the feds could call up all of the people needed to respond, develop a plan that included fighting American citizens that would be shooting at the people trying to save them, gather all needed supplies, and drive them into New Orleans over washed out bridges and destroyed roads in only three days (Tuesday when it flooded, Friday when they arrived) has no understanding of logistics.
You do understand that we live in a Republic, where the states do have rights, correct? Bush couldn’t send anyone in until the Governor asked for it.
The honest truth of it is that this is a LOCAL emergency, not a national emergency. Other than my having to pay $.30/gallon of gas more, this hurricane has in no way had a direct effect on me or my family. You do understand that our “national resources” can not be brought in until the Governor of LA asks for it, don’t you?
[quote]A quick response by our President would have brought supplies and outside help into NOLA days earlier at a minimum saving hundreds of lives. Bush is the only person in the United States who could have guaranteed a much faster response across the board. Anyone who does not admit that Bush has at least some responsibility for the poor response cannot be considered credible on anything else they say on this subject.
[/quote]
If Bush would have ordered in what was really needed (armed troops in body armour to shoot the looters and gangs of animals running wild in the streets) he would have been accused of being a racist. The feds were there within three days of the flooding. How much quicker do you think they coul have been there?
[quote]doogie wrote:
Tell me what city would have been willing to take 100,000 poor people into there city on the 1 in 50 chance that NOLA might be flooded by a hurricane.
Any city in America, dumbass. If it turned out that New Orleans wasn’t flooded, the refugees would have been gone within a week. [/quote]
Wait a second, how do you feed, shelter and take care of 150,000 people in another city before a national disaster is called? Please let me know how you thought that many people were going to be bused “away” and where all of these supplies were coming from if this was kept on a local level.
[quote]
The only possible way it could have been done would be if Bush had ordered all relevant government agencies and the military to pull out all stops to achieve it. Something not likely given the short notice and uncertainty of the effect of this particular hurricane. Remember, they would have to do this for almost every hurricane that entered the Gulf. [/quote]
Wait a second, you wanted the local gov. of New Orleans to bus out 150,000 people in less than a day before the hurricane hit(mind you, the highways were gridlocked and traffic was going nowhere to the point that they started closing roads to keep people off of them during the hurricane), but you don’t think it would have been appropriate for this administration to “pull out all stops” to help these people after the disaster struck?
[quote]
You do understand that we live in a Republic, where the states do have rights, correct? Bush couldn’t send anyone in until the Governor asked for it.[/quote]
Uh, according to many sources, Bush made a call for evacuation on Sunday. If that’s the case, I do believe that qualifies as the governor asking for help. Is there a process I am unaware of? Some mystic ritual that needed to take place?
[quote]
The honest truth of it is that this is a LOCAL emergency, not a national emergency. Other than my having to pay $.30/gallon of gas more, this hurricane has in no way had a direct effect on me or my family. You do understand that our “national resources” can not be brought in until the Governor of LA asks for it, don’t you? [/quote]
Bullshit. If this is not a national emergency, then 9/11 wasn’t either. Everyone in America didn’t know those people in the towers personally.
Much quicker than three days.
[quote]Buck Nasty wrote:
to “stay the course” we have everything under control."[/quote]
If this is the presidents definition of “control”, I would hate to see things getting out of control.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Wait a second, how do you feed, shelter and take care of 150,000 people in another city before a national disaster is called? Please let me know how you thought that many people were going to be bused “away” and where all of these supplies were coming from if this was kept on a local level.[/quote]
It’s called a disaster plan that includes mutual aid agreements with other cities that could handle the capacity. The facts have already been stated. Everybody knew about this possible scenario well in advance so where were the disaster plans? Why were they not implemented?
All this shit could have been worked out in advance. The mayors office should have had a plan in place with the state, The state should have had a plan in place with FEMA. In the post 9/11 world is there any excuse for not having disaster plans in place for almost every possible scenario? It’s not like this guy was the mayor of podunkville america. He was the mayor of over 500,000 people!
Should the federal government have a disaster plan in place for every city and county in the US? fuck no! it starts at the city and county level and works its way up. Use your head Prof.
This mayor isn’t fit to wipe Rudy’s ass. Maybe he should have read Leadership.
How many acres does GW have at his ranch,maybe he could bring in some tents and outhouses and invite some of the evacuees over to his place.
Jayhawk, I thought i lived in a democracy ,Maybe I should move to Iraq ,their supposed to have one shortly.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
In the post 9/11 world is there any excuse for not having disaster plans in place for almost every possible scenario? [/quote]
That is the exact same question we are asking this administration when it takes three days to get supplies and troops together. If this were another “9/11”, it would be considered complete disregard if it would have taken three days to start moving people out of the wreckage.
[quote]
Should the federal government have a disaster plan in place for every city and county in the US? fuck no! it starts at the city and county level and works its way up. Use your head Prof. [/quote]
I am, and while you claim that there shouldn’t be a plan in government for every city, it was well known that this was one of the worst disasters that could occur out of three posible worst case scenarios. That means there was thought in regards to New Orleans and the amount of damage that would be experienced. However, most of the funds for repair, upgrade and maintanence of the levees seems to have been deferred to Iraq.
.
Second where would they have been sent? The governor of Texas has just stated that Texas can take no more refugees. Baton Rouge is well beyond full and there are still more than 75,000 still in NOLA and this is after we know this is a national emergency.
Moron, Texas is not full. We have coliseums being packed, apartment complexes being packed, churches being packed, college campuses being packed. Of course all of this is happening a week too late because the inept LOCAL GOVERNMENT didn’t get the people out before the disaster struck.
Tell me what city would have been willing to take 100,000 poor people into there city on the 1 in 50 chance that NOLA might be flooded by a hurricane.
Any city in America, dumbass. If it turned out that New Orleans wasn’t flooded, the refugees would have been gone within a week.
Agreed. I live in Roswell NM poor ass city of 40,000. We have offered to house 400 people which works out to 1pers per hundred Now if everyone stepped up. which I believe they are everyone in NO can be cared for. It would of been nice to handle it pre katrina instead of post.
[quote]doogie wrote:
Why is this first and foremost a federal problem instead of a local problem?
[/quote]
F.E.M.A.
Same reason the federal gov’t went to war against terrorism instead of the state of NY after 9-11. It’s their job–why we pay taxes to support their fat salaries. Emergencies of this magnitude fall on the responsibility of FEMA–and the response given by the federal gov’t has been utterly deplorable.
O.K., everyone who has experienced the rath of a hurricane first hand AND worked as a city employee to help clean up the wreckage, raise your hand.
Well, I have. I lived in Pensacola for twenty years. You know, the place where all the hurricanes aim for. I have seen the devastation first hand, the nineteen year old National Guardsmen with the M-16’s, the miscommunications and the homeowners outrage that they are not allowed to return to their broken homes the next day.
I watched Katrina over the weekend. On Monday I told my husband to kiss New Orleans goodbye. When it was a category 4 on Sunday and I saw all the warm water it had to cover, even I knew that it was gonna be a category 5 before it hit land. Me, I knew. There is no excuse for the feds not to be prepared. The local governments rely on the feds for aid in catastrophic events such as this. If the response was this bad when they had DAYS to prepare, how are they going to react when we have another 9/11 event? Yes, Bush is to blame. That’s part of being the President: taking responsibility.
The Times-Picayune of New Orleans printed this editorial in its Sunday edition, criticizing the federal government’s response to Hurricane Katrina and calling on every FEMA official to be fired:
An open letter to the President
Dear Mr. President:
We heard you loud and clear Friday when you visited our devastated city and the Gulf Coast and said, “What is not working, we’re going to make it right.”
Please forgive us if we wait to see proof of your promise before believing you. But we have good reason for our skepticism.
Bienville built New Orleans where he built it for one main reason: It’s accessible. The city between the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain was easy to reach in 1718.
How much easier it is to access in 2005 now that there are interstates and bridges, airports and helipads, cruise ships, barges, buses and diesel-powered trucks.
Despite the city’s multiple points of entry, our nation’s bureaucrats spent days after last week’s hurricane wringing their hands, lamenting the fact that they could neither rescue the city’s stranded victims nor bring them food, water and medical supplies.
Meanwhile there were journalists, including some who work for The Times-Picayune, going in and out of the city via the Crescent City Connection. On Thursday morning, that crew saw a caravan of 13 Wal-Mart tractor trailers headed into town to bring food, water and supplies to a dying city.
Television reporters were doing live reports from downtown New Orleans streets. Harry Connick Jr. brought in some aid Thursday, and his efforts were the focus of a “Today” show story Friday morning.
Yet, the people trained to protect our nation, the people whose job it is to quickly bring in aid were absent. Those who should have been deploying troops were singing a sad song about how our city was impossible to reach.
We’re angry, Mr. President, and we’ll be angry long after our beloved city and surrounding parishes have been pumped dry. Our people deserved rescuing. Many who could have been were not. That’s to the government’s shame.
Mayor Ray Nagin did the right thing Sunday when he allowed those with no other alternative to seek shelter from the storm inside the Louisiana Superdome. We still don’t know what the death toll is, but one thing is certain: Had the Superdome not been opened, the city’s death toll would have been higher. The toll may even have been exponentially higher.
It was clear to us by late morning Monday that many people inside the Superdome would not be returning home. It should have been clear to our government, Mr. President. So why weren’t they evacuated out of the city immediately? We learned seven years ago, when Hurricane Georges threatened, that the Dome isn’t suitable as a long-term shelter. So what did state and national officials think would happen to tens of thousands of people trapped inside with no air conditioning, overflowing toilets and dwindling amounts of food, water and other essentials?
State Rep. Karen Carter was right Friday when she said the city didn’t have but two urgent needs: “Buses! And gas!” Every official at the Federal Emergency Management Agency should be fired, Director Michael Brown especially.
In a nationally televised interview Thursday night, he said his agency hadn’t known until that day that thousands of storm victims were stranded at the Ernest N. Morial Convention Center. He gave another nationally televised interview the next morning and said, “We’ve provided food to the people at the Convention Center so that they’ve gotten at least one, if not two meals, every single day.”
Lies don’t get more bald-faced than that, Mr. President.
Yet, when you met with Mr. Brown Friday morning, you told him, “You’re doing a heck of a job.”
That’s unbelievable.
There were thousands of people at the Convention Center because the riverfront is high ground. The fact that so many people had reached there on foot is proof that rescue vehicles could have gotten there, too.
We, who are from New Orleans, are no less American than those who live on the Great Plains or along the Atlantic Seaboard. We’re no less important than those from the Pacific Northwest or Appalachia. Our people deserved to be rescued.
No expense should have been spared. No excuses should have been voiced. Especially not one as preposterous as the claim that New Orleans couldn’t be reached.
Mr. President, we sincerely hope you fulfill your promise to make our beloved communities work right once again.
When you do, we will be the first to applaud.
[quote]ron33 wrote:
How many acres does GW have at his ranch,maybe he could bring in some tents and outhouses and invite some of the evacuees over to his place.[/quote]
Good idea, and you can do the same thing!
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Same reason the federal gov’t went to war against terrorism instead of the state of NY after 9-11. It’s their job–why we pay taxes to support their fat salaries. Emergencies of this magnitude fall on the responsibility of FEMA–and the response given by the federal gov’t has been utterly deplorable.
[/quote]
No - the role of the federal government is to protect our borders - i.e. 9/11. Not micro manage and take the blame for inept local and state planning.
I’l agree that FEMA has dropped the ball in NOLA - but they aren’t the only ones displaying ineptness. Nagen should be arrested for criminal neglect.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
In the post 9/11 world is there any excuse for not having disaster plans in place for almost every possible scenario?
That is the exact same question we are asking this administration when it takes three days to get supplies and troops together. If this were another “9/11”, it would be considered complete disregard if it would have taken three days to start moving people out of the wreckage.
Should the federal government have a disaster plan in place for every city and county in the US? fuck no! it starts at the city and county level and works its way up. Use your head Prof.
I am, and while you claim that there shouldn’t be a plan in government for every city, it was well known that this was one of the worst disasters that could occur out of three posible worst case scenarios. That means there was thought in regards to New Orleans and the amount of damage that would be experienced. However, most of the funds for repair, upgrade and maintanence of the levees seems to have been deferred to Iraq.
[/quote]
I was a resident of new Orleans for most of my life and was part of a search and rescue package that arrived on the mississippi coast hours after the storm past. As far as I know thing’s might not have went perfect, things rarely do in the face of such devistation, but I think things were better in most places than the news makes out. I have a few comments on this on going argument.
-
I recall watching a special on discovery channel years ago about a super storm hitting new orleans and if I recall correctly new levees would probably not help. There is no levee/ pumping system that can handle a cat 5 hurricane. I will post my reference when I locate it.
-
How on earth is spending for national defence related to spending on the corps of engineers? If we had spent millions on levee repair and pump upgrades and there was another terrorist attack you would be bitching about how we spent money the wrong way, and New Orleans would have still flooded. dumb point.
-
Everyone had the opportunity to evacuate the city. If they choose not to, then too bad. No one is under obligation to make sure all of the stupid people are making good desicions. If you choose to ride out a big hurricane you know what might happen. suck it up.
-
Every place I went to by day three had tons of food and water. That might sound like a long time, but that’s only because you weren’t there cutting the 100’s of trees in the road and clearing routes. It was hard work and people were working on it hours after the storm passed.
-
I’m also guessing that no one here has actually planned for the movement of ten’s of thousands of troops and rescue personal into an area. It takes time to get that number of people moving with the logistics to support them.
My advice would be for Prof X to join the army go to Iraq or Afghanistan for a tour then act as a first responder to a major storm, then come back and tell me about all his wonderful critisism of the war and the response to the hurricane, because I don’t know what he does for a living, but he sure knows a lot of other peoples jobs pretty well.
I’m sick of everyone who has turned this into a political event used to throw blame around instead of a chance to help some people in need. Every one fucked up some stuff, some people fucked up a lot of stuff, but I doubt if anyone at T-Nation could have done anything better. So shut the fuck up, donate some money, or better yet hop in your car and drive down there and help out. but please shut up.
[quote]Flop Hat wrote:
2. How on earth is spending for national defence related to spending on the corps of engineers? If we had spent millions on levee repair and pump upgrades and there was another terrorist attack you would be bitching about how we spent money the wrong way, and New Orleans would have still flooded. dumb point.[/quote]
No, dumb argument. The war in Iraq supposedly has nothing to do with the attack on 9/11, remember? We protect THIS country from another by protecting our own borders and enhancing our security, not by sending money that could be used to protect against future storms to another country to fight a war initiated because of WMD’s and Saddam.
[quote]
3. Everyone had the opportunity to evacuate the city. If they choose not to, then too bad. No one is under obligation to make sure all of the stupid people are making good desicions. If you choose to ride out a big hurricane you know what might happen. suck it up.[/quote]
Again, dumb argument. Many of the people that stayed have turned out to be hospital employees, hotel managers making sure their customers were ok, and the staff that run those hotels. You just called every old person hooked up to a respirator, every poor person without transportation and every nurse who stayed behind “stupid”. Now, that was pretty damn stupid.
[quote]
5. I’m also guessing that no one here has actually planned for the movement of ten’s of thousands of troops and rescue personal into an area. It takes time to get that number of people moving with the logistics to support them.[/quote]
No one here should have planned that.
[quote]
My advice would be for Prof X to join the army go to Iraq or Afghanistan for a tour then act as a first responder to a major storm, then come back and tell me about all his wonderful critisism of the war and the response to the hurricane, because I don’t know what he does for a living, but he sure knows a lot of other peoples jobs pretty well.[/quote]
I am in the military, dumbass, and have been to actual third world countries. Thanks for worrying about what I need to do when the subject at hand is what needed to be done for the people of NO.
I have donated money and worked to pass the word around. Many of these people are coming to my base to live. I will speak on it how I see fit.
[quote]Flop Hat wrote:
I was a resident of new Orleans for most of my life and was part of a search and rescue package that arrived on the mississippi coast hours after the storm past. As far as I know thing’s might not have went perfect, things rarely do in the face of such devistation, but I think things were better in most places than the news makes out. I have a few comments on this on going argument.
- I recall watching a special on discovery channel years ago about a super storm hitting new orleans and if I recall correctly new levees would probably not help. There is no levee/ pumping system that can handle a cat 5 hurricane. I will post my reference when I locate it.
[/quote]
You are correct. I believe they were designed for a category 3.
A city that is built in a bowl and located in “Hurricane Alley” should have upgraded their systems a long time ago. Computer models demonstrated what could and did happen.
While some of this is true. I have to disagree with your statement that everyone had the opportunity to get out. Not everyone owns a car. The poor were the worst hit as they depend on public transportation. Try to imagine not having any resources and trying to get yourself and your family (including the elderly and sick) out of the city. Just for a second imagine what it would be like to evacuate NYC. How many people there don’t have cars? Think of the grid lock and the folks left behind.
Yes, there is also a problem with complacency and getting people to leave. They’ve watched hurricane after hurricane miss them. Why should this one be any different? This is where a mandatory evacuation should be ordered.
Yep, know what this is like.
They had time. This is a national emergency. They better get better at it.
[quote]
My advice would be for Prof X to join the army go to Iraq or Afghanistan for a tour then act as a first responder to a major storm, then come back and tell me about all his wonderful critisism of the war and the response to the hurricane, because I don’t know what he does for a living, but he sure knows a lot of other peoples jobs pretty well.
I’m sick of everyone who has turned this into a political event used to throw blame around instead of a chance to help some people in need. Every one fucked up some stuff, some people fucked up a lot of stuff, but I doubt if anyone at T-Nation could have done anything better. So shut the fuck up, donate some money, or better yet hop in your car and drive down there and help out. but please shut up.[/quote]
[quote]Professor X wrote:
doogie wrote:
I think they absolutely should have had a plan. I also know that once it was clear they didn’t have this under control, action should have been taken much faster than it was. I doubt anyone here is claiming that the local politicians did a wonderful job in this. The point is, what does that matter when people are still trapped and dying? If higher government has the means to help in what is being called a “NATIONAL tragedy” then that is who we count on these situations. Are you saying this should not be the case? Are you claiming that response time appears to you to have been faultless?[/quote]
Here is some reading for you on how it works, Pro X. If you don’t like the way the system to handle natural disasters works - ie, very much a system that recognizes the police powers of the states first and foremost - call your Congressman.
http://www.fema.gov/library/stafact.shtm#sec401
And don’t embarrass yourself with comparisons to 9/11 - armed attacks and natural disasters are treated differently under law, especially as it pertains to federal jurisdiction.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
No - the role of the federal government is to protect our borders - i.e. 9/11. Not micro manage and take the blame for inept local and state planning. [/quote]
i.e. 9/11??? First of all they didn’t protect us THEN either, they just helped clean up. Then they attacked Iraq when 3/4 of the hijackers were Saudi. Iraq - the place where the Natl Guard is that would normally be used in an emergency situation just like this.
Since the federal governments’ job is to protect our borders then I’m sure you’ll agree with Joseph Farah (and Pat Buchanan) of WND that Bush has to go?
Impeach Bush
President Bush has had nearly five years in office to honor his oath of office and enforce immigration laws in this country.
He has not only failed, he has intentionally neglected this sworn duty, instead claiming he prefers to promote a vague immigration “reform” plan that involved a “guest worker” program that has served as an encouragement to the most massive influx of illegal immigration this country has ever seen.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46062
[quote]
I’ll agree that FEMA has dropped the ball in NOLA - but they aren’t the only ones displaying ineptness. Nagen should be arrested for criminal neglect. [/quote]
Nagin arrested?! Why, because he called Bush out of hiding? How much responsibility does the local government bear when the first responders are victims themselves and their Natl Guard is in Iraq?
Iraq and Hurricane Katrina highlight National Guard’s transformation
WASHINGTON - Some 6,000 National Guard personnel in Louisiana and Mississippi who would be available to help deal with the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina are in Iraq.
http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/breaking/082905Katrina_National_Guard.php
Louisiana National Guard unit watches Katrina from afar
BAGHDAD - Iraq Members of the Louisiana National Guard’s 141st Field Artillery are on duty in Baghdad, far from family and friends suffering through Hurricane Katrina and its aftermath.
Lieutenant Colonel Jordan Jones says he and his fellow soldiers have been following the events on television and trying desperately to get in touch with loved ones back home. Jones says some of the troops “have seen their neighborhoods completely submerged in water.”
He adds that it’s doubly hard since members of the Guard see it as their duty to serve during times of natural disaster.
A spokeswoman for the unit says some of the soldiers are “having a hard time” handling the helplessness of the situation.
http://www.kctv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3785796
If it wasn’t for Nagin the thousands of refugees at the Superdome would still be just a “rumor”.
Michael Chertoff: “I have not heard a report of thousands of people in the Convention Center who don’t have food and water.” (as the rest of the world watched it ON F***IN’ TV)
If only there were more clues to the feds lack of response…
FEMA chief fired from previous job
Michael Brown oversaw horse shows, had no significant disaster experience
The Federal Emergency Management Agency official in charge of the New Orleans rescue was fired from his last private-sector job overseeing horse shows.
And before joining FEMA as a deputy director in 2001, Mike Brown, the Republican Party activist, had no significant experience that would have qualified him for the position. But the Oklahoman got the job through an old college friend who at the time was heading up FEMA.
"I look at FEMA and I shake my head,‘’ a furious Gov. Mitt Romney told the Boston Herald, calling the response "an embarrassment.‘’
Before joining the Bush administration in 2001, Brown spent 11 years as the commissioner of judges and stewards for the International Arabian Horse Association, a breeders’ and horse-show organization based in Colorado.
"We do disciplinary actions, certification of (show trial) judges. We hold classes to train people to become judges and stewards. And we keep records,‘’ explained a spokeswoman for the IAHA commissioner’s office. "This was his full-time job … for 11 years,‘’ she added.
Brown was forced out of the position after a spate of lawsuits over alleged supervision failures.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46155
Some people might consider that a clue - still others will call for Nagin’s arrest.