Bush Tells New Orleans...

[quote]throttle132 wrote:
WMD wrote:
throttle132 wrote:

Dammit, I want a lot more than that from the evil Booooosh! He had no right to be spendin’ money fightin’ an illegal war in Iraq when he coulda been building a huge 70,000 foot high wall in the Gulf of Mexico and the Atlantic that woulda deflected this storm and others like it! The wall could extend from Brownsville, TX to Lubec, Maine. That stinkin’ Booooosh! No wonder nobody likes him!

What in hell are you people smokin’?

Yeah, we are smokin’, aren’t we!

(It was satirical, bud. Hang in there. It’ll come)[/quote]

Very nice. Not that you are taking my comment out of context or anything. But I really appreciate the subtlety of the attack. You’re much better at it than ZEB. And that’s some good company to keep, by golly…

In reference to below - Gov Blanco formally requested expedited federal assistance from Bush beginning Sat. Aug 28
http://www.gov.state.la.us/Disaster%20Relief%20Request.pdf

BBC interview: Lieutenant Commander Sean Kelly

NorthCom started planning before the storm even hit. We were ready for the storm when it hit Florida because, as you remember, it crossed the bottom part of Florida, and then we were planning, you know, once it was pointed towards the Gulf Coast.

So what we did was we activated what we call defense coordinating officers to work with the state to say okay, what do you think you’ll need, and we set up staging bases that could be started.

We had the USS Baton sailing almost behind the hurricane so that after the hurricane made landfall it’s search and rescue helicopters would be available almost immediately. So we had things ready.

The only caveat is, we have to wait until the President authorizes us to do so. The laws of the United States say that the military can’t just act in this fashion, we have to wait for the President to give us permission.

http://news.globalfreepress.com/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-2010

[quote]Professor X wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
Pro X,

Don’t simplify what I have said. I said that in LESS THAN TWENTY FOUR HOURS THERE WAS NOT ENOUGH TIME TO CONVINCE PEOPLE TO EVACUATE AS WELL AS GET THEM ALL OUT IN TIME. I mean, seriously, how many times does this need to be written?[/quote]

You don’t think so? Well, let’s assume you are right - that you can’t get all of them out. First, it is a mandatory evacuation. Second, none of the vehicles authorized to take people away were utilized. So maybe you can’t get everyone out, but doesn’t it stand to reason that you get as many as you can with the resources that you have?

But actually, I disagree with you orginal statement - I think 24 hours was time enough to get quite a few people moved to a safer area. Perhaps not all, but Nagin should have tried to get as many as he could.

You’re not making sense - the hurricane hadn’t hit yet. Nagin wants people out of NO - remember he issued a mandatory evacuation order - and he generally expected them to get out on their own via their own transportation. So he closes the roads?

But you’re telling me that even with Nagin’s mandatory evacuation order, he closed available roads in and out of town before the hurricane hit?

Something isn’t adding up, Pro X. If what you are saying is true - and I am not sure it is - Nagin is even more incompetent than previously considered. You don’t tell people they have to leave via the roads and then close the roads.

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
In reference to below - Gov Blanco formally requested expedited federal assistance from Bush beginning Sat. Aug 28[/quote]

Blanco declared a state of emergency roughly two days before the hurricane hit.

Recognizing the danger, why didn’t she call out LA’s National Guardsmen to provide order at the SuperDome and generally in New Orleans prior to federal assistance arriving?

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:

The only caveat is, we have to wait until the President authorizes us to do so. The laws of the United States say that the military can’t just act in this fashion, we have to wait for the President to give us permission.[/quote]

This is why you can’t rely on conspiracy theorists to get you goo information:

[quote]UPDATE: Lt. Commander Sean Kelly emails with a clarification:

USNORTHCOM was prepositioned for response to the hurricane, but as per the National Response Plan, we support the lead federal agency in disaster relief ? in this case, FEMA. The simple description of the process is the state requests federal assistance from FEMA which in turn may request assistance from the military upon approval by the president or Secretary of Defense. Having worked the hurricanes from last year as well as Dennis this year, we knew that FEMA would make requests of the military ? primarily in the areas of transportation, communications, logistics, and medicine. Thus we began staging such assets and waited for the storm to hit.

The biggest hurdles to responding to the storm were the storm itself ? couldn’t begin really helping until it passed ? and damage assessment ? figuring out which roads were passable, where communications and power were out, etc. Military helos began damage assessment and SAR on Tuesday. Thus we had permission to operate as soon as it was possible. We even brought in night SAR helos to continue the mission on Tuesday night.

The President and Secretary of Defense did authorize us to act right away and are not to blame on this end. Yes, we have to wait for authorization, but it was given in a timely manner.[/quote]

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_09/007054.php

Your inference - that Bush never gave the authorization because (fill in the blank with ludicrous conspiracy excuse, be it PNAC, Bush hates blacks, an international Jewish banking cartel, or weather-controlling space weaponry testing) - is false.

Whether the feds got it right or wrong on the response is a different question, but let’s stay firmly rooted in reality.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
You don’t think so? Well, let’s assume you are right - that you can’t get all of them out. First, it is a mandatory evacuation. Second, none of the vehicles authorized to take people away were utilized. So maybe you can’t get everyone out, but doesn’t it stand to reason that you get as many as you can with the resources that you have?[/quote]

Yes, I think buses should have been used if possible to transport people to shelter. I would like to hear the explanation for why they weren’t. I know that buses need drivers and it doesn’t appear that even many of the police officers stayed in New Orleans. If the issue is getting people to the Superdome, then this is very much his fault…but that doesn’t seem to be the major issue. I haven’t heard anyone complain because they couldn’t get to the Superdome.

[quote]
But actually, I disagree with you orginal statement - I think 24 hours was time enough to get quite a few people moved to a safer area. Perhaps not all, but Nagin should have tried to get as many as he could.[/quote]

I don’t think 24 hours before a hurricane hits is very much time at all. I10 was packed by the time he even made the order on Sunday morning. The majority of the people with cash and a car got out around that time. New Orleans isn’t just filled with major escape routes. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I do believe I10 and I90 are the two major roads out of that city. Every newscast that showed the roads showed cars going nowhere. They were stuck in traffic. This is a bad place to be when a hurricane hits.

[quote]
You’re not making sense - the hurricane hadn’t hit yet. Nagin wants people out of NO - remember he issued a mandatory evacuation order - and he generally expected them to get out on their own via their own transportation. So he closes the roads?[/quote]

What don’t you get? I don’t know what time roads were closed, but if traffic is GRIDLOCKED, the last thing you want is people on the roads right before a Cat 4 hurricane hits. Anyone with any sense would try to get those remaining to shelter quickly rather than have them on the road DURING a hurricane.

[quote]
But you’re telling me that even with Nagin’s mandatory evacuation order, he closed available roads in and out of town before the hurricane hit?[/quote]

Do you know what a hurricane is? Have you seen images of I10 after it hit? Any car on that road when that hurricane hit would be GONE. This is a HURRICANE, not a light breeze.

You have obviously never lived through a hurricane. I was about 8 years old the first time I experienced one. Hurricane Elisha(sp?) hit Houston and had us ready to jump in the bathtub with a mattress over us. You don’t go out in a hurricane. Those newscasters you see jumping out in it as they report on it are idiots. You do not want to be in a car during one of them. Getting people off the roads if traffic was going nowhere is the RIGHT thing to do, not the wrong thing.

Push,

Rest assured, I am not an America hater. I’ve lived in worked in the states, to the tune of about 7 years - I nearly ended up marrying a Texan woman. I loved my time there!

Every country has “faults”… and around here we tend to discuss them, thats all. Peace.

[quote]freemark wrote:
BostonBarrister, Rainjack, Zap Branigan, reddog6376 don’t think much of Bush. Their posts here indicate that they believe he is useless since if someone is incapable of helping he should not be blamed if he does not help. According to them the President is incapable of being of service in the case of a National emergency. We should not count on President Bush to lead us in a case of such obvious importance to national security and welfare. We should only rely on local responses. As a matter of fact now would be a good time for the President to make some overseas trips. He can comeback once we get the country cleaned up a bit. Go ahead and take a vacation Mr. President. We will call when we need someone to announce “mission accomplished”.[/quote]

If any of you are taking logic and are in need of a textbook example of a strawman argument, please print freemark’s post quoted above and take it to class.

Wow, I know the following isn’t substantial in any way, not with respect to relief efforts, but holy crap, it certainly makes it sound like Bush was out of touch with things…

White House Falls out of Step
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050907/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_struggling_with_katrina;_ylt=ApL1ViHerse7hOWZPjcnzVlh24cA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3OXIzMDMzBHNlYwM3MDM-

Some excerpts:

In a television interview, Bush said ? mistakenly ? that nobody anticipated the breach of the levees in a serious storm.

Everybody knew a breach was very possible…

Bush had raised eyebrows on his first trip by, among other things, picking Sen. Trent Lott ? instead of the thousands of mostly poor and black storm victims ? as an example of loss. “Out of the rubbles of Trent Lott’s house ? he’s lost his entire house ? there’s going to be a fantastic house. And I’m looking forward to sitting on the porch,” Bush said with a laugh from an airplane hangar in Mobile, Ala.

Who gives a crap whether or not Lott gets a shiny new home with a porch that Bush can lounge on.

Later in Biloxi, Miss., Bush tried to comfort two stunned women wandering their neighborhood clutching Hefty bags, looking in vain for something to salvage from the rubble of their home. He kept insisting they could find help at a Salvation Army center down the street, even after another bystander had informed him it had been destroyed.

Duh

And at his last stop that day, at the airport outside of New Orleans, Bush lauded the increasingly desperate city as a great town because he used go there and “enjoy myself ? occasionally too much.”

Duh

“It’s going to be almost impossible to overcome the perception about the president that he didn’t show compassion and didn’t get control of the policy failures,” American University political scientist James Thurber said. “The vivid images that are coming across the television are really destroying his image as a leader.”

No kidding.

[quote]
JustTheFacts wrote:

The only caveat is, we have to wait until the President authorizes us to do so. The laws of the United States say that the military can’t just act in this fashion, we have to wait for the President to give us permission.

thunderbolt23 wrote:

This is why you can’t rely on conspiracy theorists to get you goo information:

UPDATE: Lt. Commander Sean Kelly emails with a clarification:

USNORTHCOM was prepositioned for response to the hurricane, but as per the National Response Plan, we support the lead federal agency in disaster relief ? in this case, FEMA. The simple description of the process is the state requests federal assistance from FEMA which in turn may request assistance from the military upon approval by the president or Secretary of Defense. Having worked the hurricanes from last year as well as Dennis this year, we knew that FEMA would make requests of the military ? primarily in the areas of transportation, communications, logistics, and medicine. Thus we began staging such assets and waited for the storm to hit.

The biggest hurdles to responding to the storm were the storm itself ? couldn’t begin really helping until it passed ? and damage assessment ? figuring out which roads were passable, where communications and power were out, etc. Military helos began damage assessment and SAR on Tuesday. Thus we had permission to operate as soon as it was possible. We even brought in night SAR helos to continue the mission on Tuesday night.

The President and Secretary of Defense did authorize us to act right away and are not to blame on this end. Yes, we have to wait for authorization, but it was given in a timely manner.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_09/007054.php

Your inference - that Bush never gave the authorization because (fill in the blank with ludicrous conspiracy excuse, be it PNAC, Bush hates blacks, an international Jewish banking cartel, or weather-controlling space weaponry testing) - is false.

Whether the feds got it right or wrong on the response is a different question, but let’s stay firmly rooted in reality.[/quote]

thunderbolt,

Don’t forget an additional factor as well – the confusion that arose due to the fact this was the first national disaster under the new organizational structure. People seem to expect that people will have mastery of large, complex, mind-numbingly written laws they have never implemented previously. It seems to me that they are still trying to work out who has the authority to do what down there, and, like typical bureaucrats, don’t want to do anything that isn’t “properly authorized” in the most documented CYA fashion.

This, of course, is why some of us think adding layers of bureaucracy as a response to a problem, in order that politicians seem to be “doing something”, is an extremely bad idea. And, of course, why passing huge, mind-numbingly complex pieces of legislation to govern things is generally a bad idea.

Hell, people still don’t understand the tax code, the securities laws or the anti-trust laws, to name but a few examples, and they’ve been around for almost 100 years (though they change from time to time, the changes aren’t broad).

Clear, simple rules are almost always preferable to large, complex ones. And CYA bureaucrats being in charge is always a bad idea, no matter what you’re talking about.

If nothing else comes from this, perhaps at least the people in Congress will pass a simple, one or two page law authorizing immediate federal response and sovereignty over national disaster sites, with state and local authorities officially empowered to make any and all decisions if the feds aren’t there yet.

Here’s the head of FEMA looking like a tool…

Oops!
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050907/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/katrina_disaster_response;_ylt=AqtD.ptDN.naDO5kUDXt7nYGw_IE;_ylu=X3oDMTA4NGRzMjRtBHNlYwMxNjk5

WASHINGTON - The top U.S. disaster official waited hours after Hurricane Katrina struck the Gulf Coast before he proposed to his boss sending at least 1,000 Homeland Security workers into the region to support rescuers, internal documents show.

Part of the mission, according to the documents obtained by The Associated Press, was to “convey a positive image” about the government’s response for victims.

Acknowledging that such a move would take two days, Michael Brown, director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, sought the approval from Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff roughly five hours after Katrina made landfall on Aug. 29.

Pursuant to my posts above, here is Mickey Kaus talking about how the various levels of government interfered with one another – I disagree that federalism as a concept is at fault – I do think that unclear lines of authority ARE at fault for many problems:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2125735/&#states2

The Curse of Federalism, Part II:

Bloggers Faces of G ( http://facesofg.blogspot.com/2005/09/using-blame.html ) and Brad DeLong ( http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2005/09/new_orleanss_hu.html ), as well as Instapundit ( Instapundit ), wrestle with the obvious issue any relief effort would face–even in a streamlined federal system with no gratuitous interemediate state level of authority interposed between cities and Washington ( http://slate.msn.com/id/2125282/?nav=fix&#federalism ). That obvious issue is how does the national government anticipate that a city like New Orleans won’t have its act together in a hurricane, so the feds can be ready with troops to take over policing and other duties more or less immediately?

It’s not that simple–you can imagine a certain amount of paranoia and hurt on New Orleans’ part if every disaster were accompanied by a mobilization of the National Guard in anticipation of unchecked looting (especially if that mobilization were deemed unnecessary in the case of, say, the equivalent disaster in New York).

But it’s not that difficult either. My answers are: a) Anyone who knew anything about New Orleans would know that they wouldn’t get it together; b) At the myriad meetings that were held on the various emergency plans, high-powered federal officials might ask esoteric, expert questions like “When all these people get to the Superdome, what will they eat and drink? And how will they go to the bathroom?” c) The whole problem would be easier if we had a unitary, hierarchical government in which federal preemption wasn’t seen as an invasion of state “sovereignty.” When United Parcel Service thinks its Cincinnati division isn’t ready to deliver Christmas packages, I imagine it sends a team to find out and takes over the Cincinnati division if it has significant worries. I’m sure there are hurt local feelings–feelings that would be stronger when it’s an elected city government’s authority that’s being preempted. But the whole preeemption problem is immeasurably exaggerated by our unnecessary fears about uncomplicated federal power. We’d be better off if we were more like UPS; d) The federalist complication is clearly responsible for screwups like the following, described by Newsday, in which one “sovereign” layer of government worries if it’s going to be reimbursed by the other layer ( Newsday | Long Island's & NYC's News Source - Newsday ):

[i]One problem: 8,000 National Guard troops from Louisiana and Mississippi are on duty in Iraq. Pentagon officials insisted last week that didn't hinder disaster response, [b]but acknowledged that the bureaucracy for replacing them with troops from nearby states is unwieldy.[/b]

At this point, questions about why the troops weren't there quicker seem to be an exercise in bureaucratic finger-pointing. Pentagon officials last week said questions should be directed to the state. But on the ground, local officials like New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin called on Washington for more troops.

The reason, Young said: [b]State governors outside the hurricane zone wouldn't mobilize Guard troops in advance because they weren't sure they would be reimbursed by Washington.[/b][/i] [Emph. added]

The whole process by which states have to ask other states for aid wouldn’t exist if we didn’t have states! [What would you have, again?–ed Local entities covering entire metropolitan areas–SMSAs. The national government. Nothing in between. If you wanted to divide the country into ten numbered sectors for administrative purposes, fine. But there wouldn’t be ten extra governments. But what about our ‘laboratories of democracy’?–ed Metropolitan areas are fine laboratories of democracy!] … Con: Jim Tynen thinks unitary states do no better, and points to France ( http://www.livejournal.com/users/jtynen/ ). … 3:16 A.M. link

[quote]Professor X wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:
Every newscast that showed the roads showed cars going nowhere. They were stuck in traffic. This is a bad place to be when a hurricane hits.[/quote]

I don’t doubt this is true - but buses full of poor people should have been among the slow-moving hordes of cars rather than left to their own fate inside the city. Perhaps the buses couldn’t have made it all the way to out of range of the hurricane, but some is always better than none - fact is, the mayor went for the none option.

Spare me your righteous preaching on hurricanes. I was in Houston when Allison hit.

If this all true - that any hurricane must be serious enough to ‘go out in’, why did it take so long for the Mayor to call for evacuation?

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
I don’t doubt this is true - but buses full of poor people should have been among the slow-moving hordes of cars rather than left to their own fate inside the city. Perhaps the buses couldn’t have made it all the way to out of range of the hurricane, but some is always better than none - fact is, the mayor went for the none option.[/quote]

I am tired of debating this, and I have been pm’d by enough people to let me know that I have explained this position well enough already. I am amazed that this needs to be repeated over and over for you. But one last time…where were thousands of people going to be shipped to in less than a day and how were you going to CONVINCE them all to leave everything they own when they have no means to support themselves?

I think I have written this same thing about 10 times in this thread and others.

[quote]
Spare me your righteous preaching on hurricanes. I was in Houston when Allison hit.[/quote]

Then why would it be so hard to understand that cars should not be on the road? Allison was not as powerful as this one and the entire medical center was drowned.

Are you being serious? How many times have I written out the time line? Forget it. Find those old posts and quote them. It makes no sense at all for shit to need this much repetition before it sinks in. Some of you are ridiculously amazing in your inability to see anything other than from a very narrow perspective.

Sometimes their perspective is that federal government officials can do no wrong.

Therefore, something, anything, must be at fault instead so as to excuse any seeming impropriety by a federal action or lack of action.

If they allow the fact that federal officials can make mistakes, their whole worldview might warp into allowing questions concerning Iraq, the economy, the environment, crony networks influencing selection of officials for government posts, loss of rights and so on.

Obviously, that is too scary to contemplate. The fact that federal officials are quite simply people, with all the faults and failings as the rest of us simply cannot be true!

Cripes… it took a week to say yes… but at least the teddy bears are on the way.

In a situation like this… I do think we should have sent the ships to sea so they could wait just outside territorial waters for permission to enter. Making the time from approval to deployment as small as possible.

Heck, you could even then ask for permisson to enter the gulf and wait for final approval – just get as close as possible while waiting for the approval and deployment plan.

They could always turn around and come back if permission wasn’t granted. So, we have gutless wonders who are afraid to take proactive steps as well.

Aid from Canada ? three warships and a coast guard ship ? departed for the Gulf Coast on Thursday, more than one week after Canada first offered to send military support. Ottawa has been careful not to criticize the slow U.S. response and simply repeated their willingness to help when Washington finally accepted its offer of assistance.

Several Sea King helicopters and about 1,000 personnel were aboard the Canadian ships, which will take several days to arrive off Louisiana. The ships were loaded with medical supplies, 1,200 cots, body bags, assault boats, lumber, pollution cleanup equipment ? even diapers, baby wipes and teddy bears.

Intellectual dishonesty abounds here.

Digging through Hoover dam with a piece of rebar is not by cup of tea.

Good day.

[quote]vroom wrote:

Sometimes their perspective is that federal government officials can do no wrong.

Therefore, something, anything, must be at fault instead so as to excuse any seeming impropriety by a federal action or lack of action.[/quote]

Yes, except that it doesn’t pertain to my line of questioning, which is what Pro X was referring to. I have never given the feds a pass, and as the timeline emerges, I can confidently blame the feds for their mistakes. And I have said so. What is more important in my view is finding out who created the mess that the feds had to react to.

I blame the hurricane mostly, but I have a problem with local officials instigating a super-crisis and then blaming the feds for not swooping in and dealing with it in a timely fashion.

This is your usual abstract blathering. And one of the dumbest posts I have read on T-nation. Since when do ‘conservatives’ think any government entity is beyond criticism?

Moreover, conveniently, you choose the gaseous pronoun ‘they’ - who is ‘they’? I allow for questions concerning the Bush adminstration’s actions in any context, and so do most of his supporters around here.

No, what you have is your fantasy stereotype of the ‘closed minded righties’ that you ascribe behavior that doesn’t actually exist. It is fun, though, right?

Is it lost on you that some of the kneejerking blame of the feds may accuratley be described as nothing more than an extension of blinding Bush hatred?

I want an honest of accounting of what happened, regardless of partisanship. Your red herrings - that somehow considering local officials’ culpability is an automatic exoneration of Bush and the feds - show just how limited your thinking is, which is surprising, since after all you are rubbing your chin in your avatar.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

Yes, except that it doesn’t pertain to my line of questioning, which is what Pro X was referring to. I have never given the feds a pass, and as the timeline emerges, I can confidently blame the feds for their mistakes. And I have said so. What is more important in my view is finding out who created the mess that the feds had to react to.

I blame the hurricane mostly, but I have a problem with local officials instigating a super-crisis and then blaming the feds for not swooping in and dealing with it in a timely fashion.

[/quote]

I think this sums up the entire issue completely & concisely

[quote]Professor X wrote:
thunderbolt23 wrote:

I am tired of debating this, and I have been pm’d by enough people to let me know that I have explained this position well enough already.[/quote]

Irrelevant.

Well, that is my question, Pro X, and I’ll find someone less limited than you to address it. If Nagin orders a mandatory evacuation, it is not optional.

In fact, they wargamed a scenario some 13 months ago and realized the weaknesses.

Nagin wanted those that couldn’t get out of town to go the SuperDome, but did not provide transportation to those inside the city, despite the fact that they had run this scenario before.

What is interesting is that you seem willing to say anything to make sure local officials don’t seem blameworthy - but that is exactly what you accuse ‘Bushies’ of brainlessly doing for the feds. Odd.

The mayor has ordered a mandatory evacuation but expects cars not to be on the road?

I realize what has happened - you’re tapped out.

That is a convenient escape hatch for you. I am not seeing anything from a narrow perspective - I am asking the kinds of questions that should be asked if we are going to prevent this kind of catastrophe again.

It doesn’t suit your politics to ask them, so you are unreliable.